How do you feel about Legalization of Illegals in US?

[GabiandVi 34]

Pretend, for a moment, that you are holding a camera (video).

Now, zoom out so that you can see your city.

Zoom out furthar...see your country.

Zoom out all the way to get a vantage point from outer space.

See our beautiful blue and green planet with some clouds hovering here and there?

Now ask yourself:

Is there really such a thing as an "illegal" human being?

(L) (L)

This sounds very nice, but the answer to your question is YES! In the way you are using the term, YES. I don't think calling someone an illegal alien is calling them an illegal human being, but for the sake of argument, let's use that term. Was Jeffery Dahmer an illegal human being? I'm not equating immigrating illegally with cannabalism, I'm only using him as an illustration that as you are using the term - being outside the law=illegal human being - such a thing exists. So your question is actually should we have borders (i.e. should it be illegal to immigrate without the consent of the people of the country you are immigrating to)? Well, until we have no need for government, we need borders. Until we are a race that can handle anarchy without chaos, we need borders. We have not been able to establish utopia yet, and many have tried. When we do, then we will have no borders. But I don't think that is going to happen in my daughter's lifetime.

[HAL 9000 96]

nothing is invisible. you don't care about illegal immigration because it doesn't effect you or your paycheck. crystal clear.

now look at it from a persons POV that isn't a fortunate as we are to have a degree & does manual labor for a living.

They also do not seem to have a problem with people exploiting these illegal immigrants.

When you want to bring that up for discussion, feel free to do so.

Its not too difficult to think in terms of cause and effect.

[SpiritAlight 1]

I need to add something else:

the people hiring them are completely and totally to be the ones to get reprimanded.

And guess what?

They are United States of America citizens!

Ha!

[Heracles 417]

Lets talk the issues then.

We're talking US immigration, not other countries' immigration issues. However, if you want to bring them up, also bring up what they also involve themselves in to prevent what they can.

Again, if funneling money to another country is your idea of what I am thinking of, then you are unfortunately gravely mistaken.

Yes. And I am talking about how other nations address similar issues and the results of that policy. Everyone else learned from the amnesty mistake the US made in the 80's.

Due process. It costs. There is nothing frivolous about that.

So does illegal immigration and that is fact. Hence why every other 1st world country is doing everything they can to control it. But there are countries that do nothing which consequently happen to be 2nd and 3rd world nations.

[SpiritAlight 1]

Pretend, for a moment, that you are holding a camera (video).

Now, zoom out so that you can see your city.

Zoom out furthar...see your country.

Zoom out all the way to get a vantage point from outer space.

See our beautiful blue and green planet with some clouds hovering here and there?

Now ask yourself:

Is there really such a thing as an "illegal" human being?

(L) (L)

This sounds very nice, but the answer to your question is YES! In the way you are using the term, YES. I don't think calling someone an illegal alien is calling them an illegal human being, but for the sake of argument, let's use that term. Was Jeffery Dahmer an illegal human being? I'm not equating immigrating illegally with cannabalism, I'm only using him as an illustration that as you are using the term - being outside the law=illegal human being - such a thing exists. So your question is actually should we have borders (i.e. should it be illegal to immigrate without the consent of the people of the country you are immigrating to)? Well, until we have no need for government, we need borders. Until we are a race that can handle anarchy without chaos, we need borders. We have not been able to establish utopia yet, and many have tried. When we do, then we will have no borders. But I don't think that is going to happen in my daughter's lifetime.

Oh G, I dream about such things.

sigh

[SMOKE 1,426]

Is there really such a thing as an "illegal" human being?

But is it okay for them to prosper at somebody else's loss?

The argument can and does go both ways.

Who benefits at *their* expense to drive them our way?

so keep letting the blue collar Americans take it on the chin?

Again, its a two way street.

So keep letting the pre-illegals take it up the wazoo.

Problem is, um, that there's causation involved and God forbid we actually did something to really prevent the problem from becoming, a problem.

And, no, I do not favor screwing our workers over unless there are lines that I have apparently written in invisible bits and bytes here. Legislate all you want to punish, but fact of the matter is that if you prevent the problem in the first place...

you can stand on your soap box all day it doesn't change the facts. the worlds poor is not the US fault or burden. 1 time....look at the illegal immigration issue from the POV of a blue collar worker. you can't deny its a problem, its hurting everyone & letting it continue is not the answer.

Again... more invisible lines to read here.

We are not discussing the world's poor- at least I'm not. We're discussing the cake we like to have and eat on someone else's plate. THAT is called causation for them to come and eat our pie.

nothing is invisible. you don't care about illegal immigration because it doesn't effect you or your paycheck. crystal clear.

now look at it from a persons POV that isn't a fortunate as we are to have a degree & does manual labor for a living.

Sorry to butt in but...we all make choices in life. Opportunites are abundant in this country. Outcomes based on an individual's own decisions should not be blamed on anyone but the one who made the decision.

sorry but thats BS! the blue collar worker in America has no say in what laws are enforced. they are being hurt by choices made by others. some people can't go to college because of family issues or maybe they can't complete the courses...but, screw them too right?

[SpiritAlight 1]

I repeat:

The US citizens hiring the "outsiders" are the ones to be reprimanded.

That is one way to slow this puppy down.

Edited March 14, 2008 by SpiritAlight

[SMOKE 1,426]

I repeat:

The US citizens hiring the "outsiders" are the ones to be reprimanded.

That is one way to slow this puppy down.

YES. thats what OK & AZ are doing.

[Traviesa 0]

Is there really such a thing as an "illegal" human being?

But is it okay for them to prosper at somebody else's loss?

The argument can and does go both ways.

Who benefits at *their* expense to drive them our way?

so keep letting the blue collar Americans take it on the chin?

Again, its a two way street.

So keep letting the pre-illegals take it up the wazoo.

Problem is, um, that there's causation involved and God forbid we actually did something to really prevent the problem from becoming, a problem.

And, no, I do not favor screwing our workers over unless there are lines that I have apparently written in invisible bits and bytes here. Legislate all you want to punish, but fact of the matter is that if you prevent the problem in the first place...

you can stand on your soap box all day it doesn't change the facts. the worlds poor is not the US fault or burden. 1 time....look at the illegal immigration issue from the POV of a blue collar worker. you can't deny its a problem, its hurting everyone & letting it continue is not the answer.

Again... more invisible lines to read here.

We are not discussing the world's poor- at least I'm not. We're discussing the cake we like to have and eat on someone else's plate. THAT is called causation for them to come and eat our pie.

nothing is invisible. you don't care about illegal immigration because it doesn't effect you or your paycheck. crystal clear.

now look at it from a persons POV that isn't a fortunate as we are to have a degree & does manual labor for a living.

Sorry to butt in but...we all make choices in life. Opportunites are abundant in this country. Outcomes based on an individual's own decisions should not be blamed on anyone but the one who made the decision.

sorry but thats BS! the blue collar worker in America has no say in what laws are enforced. they are being hurt by choices made by others. some people can't go to college because of family issues or maybe they can't complete the courses...but, screw them too right?

I was responding to how you said "fortunate...to have a degree." There's really no luck involved. A lot of hard work, yes...lots of sacrifice, yes. But no luck. Public education through the 12th grade is free in this country. We seriously take that for granted. If your family can't pay for college (like mine) it's very simple-you study the material, do your homework, and get a scholarship. Otherwise, there are educational grants and of course student loans for all. I don't know anyone who couldn't get a student loan. Those who chose to take the easy road were actually taking the larger risk. I don't have a lot of sympathy for that kind of apathy when there's another individual who risked his life to get here to do that job. Which one do I want working for me? The one who wants it and actually put forth the effort to get it. Reward based on merit, makes sense doesn't it?

[HAL 9000 96]

Lets talk the issues then.

We're talking US immigration, not other countries' immigration issues. However, if you want to bring them up, also bring up what they also involve themselves in to prevent what they can.

Again, if funneling money to another country is your idea of what I am thinking of, then you are unfortunately gravely mistaken.

Yes. And I am talking about how other nations address similar issues and the results of that policy. Everyone else learned from the amnesty mistake the US made in the 80's.

Due process. It costs. There is nothing frivolous about that.

So does illegal immigration and that is fact. Hence why every other 1st world country is doing everything they can to control it. But there are countries that do nothing which consequently happen to be 2nd and 3rd world nations.

OK, very well. And how are these other nations dealing commercially and legally with immigrant feeder nations? Believe it or not, not everyone in this ' 1st world' is as hung up as Australia and the UK about making immigration difficult. Nevertheless, from the preventative point of view (again, IF you want to have a million laws to punish, that's perfectly OK with me- that will not do anything to curb the APPETITE of those that want a better life), it does nothing to resolve the disparity between haves and have nots.

Do nothing nations... now that is a classic. Maybe their governments don't need to worry because we haven't made it an advantage for them to keep their own citizens? All it takes is a little positive reinforcement.

Punitive action only creates future issues to have to clean up.

sorry but thats BS! the blue collar worker in America has no say in what laws are enforced. they are being hurt by choices made by others. some people can't go to college because of family issues or maybe they can't complete the courses...but, screw them too right?

Blue collar workers in America, being USCs, can vote.

[SpiritAlight 1]

I was responding to how you said "fortunate...to have a degree." There's really no luck involved. A lot of hard work, yes...lots of sacrifice, yes. But no luck. Public education through the 12th grade is free in this country. We seriously take that for granted. If your family can't pay for college (like mine) it's very simple-you study the material, do your homework, and get a scholarship. Otherwise, there are educational grants and of course student loans for all. I don't know anyone who couldn't get a student loan. Those who chose to take the easy road were actually taking the larger risk. I don't have a lot of sympathy for that kind of apathy when there's another individual who risked his life to get here to do that job. Which one do I want working for me? The one who wants it and actually put forth the effort to get it. Reward based on merit, makes sense doesn't it?

While I can somewhat agree with this, there is another way to look at things:

school is not the end all be all.

Education happens in the real world.

I have subscribed to the world of apprenticeship, etc.

Learn while you do.

I have never liked the public school system...it leaves a lot to be desired.

Only really good "sheeple" get through it unscathed.

Digest and spurt out, quickly...on to the next semester.

Bleh.

(I do not mean to offend people who graduated from college and university, please take this in the spirit in which it is intended)

Edited March 14, 2008 by SpiritAlight

[SMOKE 1,426]

sorry but thats BS! the blue collar worker in America has no say in what laws are enforced. they are being hurt by choices made by others. some people can't go to college because of family issues or maybe they can't complete the courses...but, screw them too right?

Blue collar workers in America, being USCs, can vote.

why do you think the amnesty bill got shot down?.....they called their reps & said HELL NO!

[Traviesa 0]

I was responding to how you said "fortunate...to have a degree." There's really no luck involved. A lot of hard work, yes...lots of sacrifice, yes. But no luck. Public education through the 12th grade is free in this country. We seriously take that for granted. If your family can't pay for college (like mine) it's very simple-you study the material, do your homework, and get a scholarship. Otherwise, there are educational grants and of course student loans for all. I don't know anyone who couldn't get a student loan. Those who chose to take the easy road were actually taking the larger risk. I don't have a lot of sympathy for that kind of apathy when there's another individual who risked his life to get here to do that job. Which one do I want working for me? The one who wants it and actually put forth the effort to get it. Reward based on merit, makes sense doesn't it?

While I can somewhat agree with this, there is another way to look at things:

school is not the end all be all.

Education happens in the real world.

I have subscribed to the world of apprenticeship, etc.

Learn while you do.

I have never liked the public school system...it leaves a lot to be desired.

Only really good "sheeple" get through it unscathed.

Digest and spurt out, quickly...on to the next semester.

Bleh.

(I do not mean to offend people who graduated from college and university, please take this in the spirit in which it is intended)

Not offended necessarily, but I do take exception to your "sheeple" comment. One thing I have always prided myself in is my tendency to question the issue, look at the facts, and form my own opinion. That's why I didn't vote in the primaries-won't pick a political party. I have strong convictions, but they're my own, not what anyone told me to believe. And college may not seem like the be-all and end-all, in plenty of situations it's not. But here's a real world example-I followed in my mother's professional footsteps and became an accountant. She's been in the industry for over 25 years, me almost 4. How do I make very nearly as much as my mom? That piece of paper. It does make a difference.

[SMOKE 1,426]

I was responding to how you said "fortunate...to have a degree." There's really no luck involved. A lot of hard work, yes...lots of sacrifice, yes. But no luck. Public education through the 12th grade is free in this country. We seriously take that for granted. If your family can't pay for college (like mine) it's very simple-you study the material, do your homework, and get a scholarship. Otherwise, there are educational grants and of course student loans for all. I don't know anyone who couldn't get a student loan. Those who chose to take the easy road were actually taking the larger risk. I don't have a lot of sympathy for that kind of apathy when there's another individual who risked his life to get here to do that job. Which one do I want working for me? The one who wants it and actually put forth the effort to get it. Reward based on merit, makes sense doesn't it?

don't you mean...reward for someone that snubs their nose at the laws of the nation?

[Heracles 417]

OK, very well. And how are these other nations dealing commercially and legally with immigrant feeder nations? Believe it or not, not everyone in this ' 1st world' is as hung up as Australia and the UK about making immigration difficult. Nevertheless, from the preventative point of view (again, IF you want to have a million laws to punish, that's perfectly OK with me- that will not do anything to curb the APPETITE of those that want a better life), it does nothing to resolve the disparity between haves and have nots.

Do nothing nations... now that is a classic. Maybe their governments don't need to worry because we haven't made it an advantage for them to keep their own citizens? All it takes is a little positive reinforcement.

Punitive action only creates future issues to have to clean up.

...

Blue collar workers in America, being USCs, can vote.

Vote for who? A lot of politicians are more concerned about winning votes, aka their own ####, than doing what is right for the country or its people.

Second of all the reason so many other countries have such a high standard of living is due to their modern immigration policy. The mistake people make when looking at America is that they see a handful of billionaires here and think wow we are such a rich country. Six of the richest people in the world are from India. The second richest man in the world is ironically from MEXICO. Is the average Joe rich in those nations..

America is not a bottomless pot of wealth. Quite the contrary actually and I live in a wealthy area here. I know brick layers downunder who are 5 times wealthier, at 30, than Harvard and Yale ivy league grads with masters. Yet some act as if the American people are rolling in cash and that there is much surplus to go around and give the poor of other nations. Put simply, this country cannot afford all of these illegal immigrants. Especially at a time when it faces huge job loses and an imminent bankruptcy. Too many people caught up with Hollywood and not enough people with a dose of reality.

Edited March 14, 2008 by Boo-Yah!