Impacts on foreign retirement funds by getting SSN? - split from "How to transfer money without SSN" thread

[Natureboy 1]

My wife got her green card with an issue date of 12/31/2013. She came from China on a K-1 VISA Dec 2012. We married in February 2013 and made application for her green card.

We have business in China and she will begin receiving China retirement money in Jan 2015..we maintain a bank account in China in her name.

She has no plans to work or go back to school as we are both older. My income is passive income so the savings to file a joint return is only about $125 per year if she has a SSN.

She has not made application for a SSN and I cannot find reason for her to do so unless someone can enlighten me.

She got her drivers license, insurance in her name and was able to open a bank account in her name with Bank of America that has a relationship with China Construction Bank. Has wired money with the China Construction Bank in Harbin. Never needed a SSN yet.

If I die she has been clear she will return to China. We must be married for 10 years for her to draw my SS and I am certain they would find some reason to refuse to pay her. Anyway she has plenty of money and would not need my SS retirement check.

I can find nothing in the immigration process that says she must apply for a SSN. She retained her fathers name as is custom in China. I can see that creating difficulties also with SSN.

She does not want to loose her Chinese retirement income.

We also have investments in China and she trades the Chinese stock market and files an annual return there.

Would someone enlighten me with a reason that she should have a SSN. She needs nothing they provide and she will never make income while in US.

We keep money in both countries

In short there is no financial advantage except the 125 bucks a year savings.

Cannot file for W7 because she can get a SSN. Once she gets a SSN a tax return will need to be filed every year and she thinks could effect her Chinese retirement income. I would not doubt the two govts communicate using the SSN. I have an extended stay VISA to China so not a problem how long I stay. Work with some companies there. They wanted me to get Chinese ID but I keep putting them off.

If someone sees something obvious I am missing I would appreciate very much your insight.

Thanks

[RandyW 149]

You may wish to read up on the law concerning resident aliens. I realize this says "resident alien living outside the United States", but it seems to indicate that your wife is responsible for paying income taxes on her Chinese income. Perhaps the Publication 54 they reference can help you out. I believe you'll find out that resident aliens (i.e., GREEN CARD HOLDERS) ARE responsible for paying taxes on their world-wide income, regardless of where they live.

I found this at http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-International-Individual-Tax-Matters

1. I’m a U.S. citizen living and working outside of the United States for many years. Do I still need to file a U.S. tax return?

Yes, if you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien living outside the United States, your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you live. However, you may qualify for certain foreign earned income exclusions and/or foreign income tax credits. Please refer to Publication 54, Tax Guide for U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad, for additional information.

As of Dec., 2013 the partnership between the Bank of America and the CCB is no longer in effect. You may find a 3% foreign transaction fee charged to your ATM withdrawals. Wire transfers can still be arranged, of course.

To be eligible to CONTINUE receiving your SS retirement benefits after moving back to China when she reaches her own retirement age, she needs only to have lived with you in the U.S. for 5 years. But it sounds like you're not interested in relying on this. Receiving SPOUSAL and/or SURVIVOR's benefits is a different ballgame than receiving benefits based on your own record. You do NOT need 40 quarters of work credit.

BofA Sells China Construction Bank Shares

http://www.nasdaq.co...-20130903-01308

Quote

Bank of America now has no stake in CCB, and is the last major American bank to sell out of the large Chinese banks they bought into before those banks went public in Hong Kong seven to eight years ago.

. . . AND there's this

Beijing to back United States over new FATCA law against tax evasion

I hate to play Debbie Downer here - good luck to you!

[RandyW 149]

. . . AND this from the People's Daily recently.

Notice that it's directed at fighting corruption - NOT those who simply move overseas without lugging huge sums of cash - although it's unclear what this means for our loved ones who get green cards.

Notice that it says "their local hukou that allow them to benefit from welfare services, such as medical insurance, pensions and children's education."

Police focus on emigrants who still have their hukou

Those who have obtained residency permits or citizenship abroad but have not cancelled their Chinese household registrations - especially if they face allegations of corruption - will become an even greater focus of police investigations, in the latest measure in the fight against graft, the Ministry of Public Security said.

"If evidence is uncovered, they may face departure restrictions if they return to China to visit family members," a senior official from the ministry, who requested anonymity, told China Daily.

Police will examine bank accounts and financial transactions as well as input from the public, he said.

It is mandatory for Chinese citizens who settle in other countries to cancel their household registrations, or hukou, before emigrating.

. . .

According to Beijing Hezhong, a company that facilitates migration services, it has seen an annual 20 percent increase since 2011 in the number of Chinese citizens applying for the EB-5 investment immigration program in the US, with about 500 to 600 applicants each year.

In July, the ministry appealed to the public to volunteer information regarding emigrants maintaining their hukou.

From 2013 to June 2014, the ministry cancelled 1.06 million hukou that were still illegally registered by Chinese citizens.

I would caution anyone whose spouse has a green card or citizenship and still has their hukou registration to MAKE SURE OF WHAT THEY'RE DOING before canceling their hukou. That is, make sure that it actually is required.

I see it as exactly what the article states - a corruption fighting tool, and not really applicable to our spouses. I would recommend not doing anything, unless you hear more about it. Remember that just by asking, you are potentially notifying them as to your status.

Just being aware can help keep the rumors in line, and help you figure out what to do when the time comes.

[Natureboy 1]

Yes we were aware of BOA selling their interest back to China Construction when we went in Jan 2013 to May 2013. We incurred no fees. It is still the best link with US bank I think as far as security. That has always been my concern in mainland China banks not Hong Kong banks.

Yes you are correct there is a collaborative effort to stop the movement of taxable income out of America into other countries. Although Apple, Boeing, GE many, many government contractors have bought companies in Ireland and have done what is called inversion. There are Trillions of untaxed US dollars in other countries legally because of this loophole. Apple alone owes 47 Billion in US taxes if the money was not sitting in Irish banks.

Simply China wants taxes on income made in China, America want taxes on money made in America. In business it becomes complicated when you fully understand NAFTA and free trade zones.

My question was not "how do I avoid paying taxes on income?" I do not wish to be an Apple or Boeing or GE that wishes to enjoy the freedoms in the US but also wishes to defraud the government that allowed this profit opportunity. Another subject.

My question is my wife required to get a SSN? Any income she makes will stay in China and will be subject to China taxes. No she is not giving up her Chinese hukou. There is absolutely no benefit because she only makes a small amount of money in China and files papers every year to disclose that income. Any income I make will stay in US and I will pay US taxes on this income. Not that it is a big deal but we were given written notice we must be married and living together for 10 years in before she could receive SS spousal benefits.Don't really care just shows me how confused our government workers are about the laws effecting immigrants.

I think the best thing is no SSN and just be dumb!!

Yes the verbage in most US laws is very broad so they have the freedom to do with the small person whatever they want much as China has been doing for centuries with their autocratic control of the masses.

I have been buying from China for 25 years when I attend the Canton Fair.

[RandyW 149]

Yes we were aware of BOA selling their interest back to China Construction when we went in Jan 2013 to May 2013. We incurred no fees. It is still the best link with US bank I think as far as security. That has always been my concern in mainland China banks not Hong Kong banks.

Yes you are correct there is a collaborative effort to stop the movement of taxable income out of America into other countries. Although Apple, Boeing, GE many, many government contractors have bought companies in Ireland and have done what is called inversion. There are Trillions of untaxed US dollars in other countries legally because of this loophole. Apple alone owes 47 Billion in US taxes if the money was not sitting in Irish banks.

Simply China wants taxes on income made in China, America want taxes on money made in America. In business it becomes complicated when you fully understand NAFTA and free trade zones.

My question was not "how do I avoid paying taxes on income?" I do not wish to be an Apple or Boeing or GE that wishes to enjoy the freedoms in the US but also wishes to defraud the government that allowed this profit opportunity. Another subject.

My question is my wife required to get a SSN? Any income she makes will stay in China and will be subject to China taxes. No she is not giving up her Chinese hukou. There is absolutely no benefit because she only makes a small amount of money in China and files papers every year to disclose that income. Any income I make will stay in US and I will pay US taxes on this income. Not that it is a big deal but we were given written notice we must be married and living together for 10 years in before she could receive SS spousal benefits.Don't really care just shows me how confused our government workers are about the laws effecting immigrants.

I think the best thing is no SSN and just be dumb!!

Yes the verbage in most US laws is very broad so they have the freedom to do with the small person whatever they want much as China has been doing for centuries with their autocratic control of the masses.

I have been buying from China for 25 years when I attend the Canton Fair.

The 10 year restriction is for an ex-wife who has not remarried to draw benefits on your record.

The Bank of America fees on CCB ATM withdrawals began in Dec., 2013.

You can choose to follow the law or not. Either way, I suggest you read up on it.

Also Google "life without social security number".

Good luck

[Owen_London 65]

I don't understand the question, or why you're asking it.

All permanent residents of the US are subject to US taxation, unless there is a specific tax treaty exception. As you can see here: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Alien-Residency---Green-Card-Test

This means she has to file her US taxes each year, unless she really doesn't make enough money to do so. This seems unlikely, given your posts. To file her taxes, she needs a taxpayer identification number, i.e. SSN or ITIN. As you say, she can't apply for an ITIN, because she has a green card. Therefore she must apply for her SSN and then file her taxes.

The rest of your post seems to just you explaining why she wouldn't be inconvenienced by breaking the law. Or am I missing something?

[Natureboy 1]

I don't understand the question, or why you're asking it.

All permanent residents of the US are subject to US taxation, unless there is a specific tax treaty exception. As you can see here: http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Alien-Residency---Green-Card-Test

This means she has to file her US taxes each year, unless she really doesn't make enough money to do so. This seems unlikely, given your posts. To file her taxes, she needs a taxpayer identification number, i.e. SSN or ITIN. As you say, she can't apply for an ITIN, because she has a green card. Therefore she must apply for her SSN and then file her taxes.

The rest of your post seems to just you explaining why she wouldn't be inconvenienced by breaking the law. Or am I missing something?

Yes my CPA has given me this same info and no she has never made worked or made any money in the US. We meet all thresholds for reporting any money we have in foreign banks outside of the US. We are not wealthy people nor do we have money to evade taxes (I can only wish) They are looking for people in US with 50K plus in a foreign bank that has not been reported. She meets the green card test because she has received no income from China, no gifts in US or China, has not made any income in China or US.

This began when we got an extension on our 2013 return (the first return she would be a dependant) so did not file until July 2013 since we had been in China.

I should have known better than to file jointly with claiming her as a dependent. It was a lousy 129 bucks savings. Kicked back of course because just being my wife does not make her a dependent unless she has a SSN or ITIN not the USCIS#. I will file jointly again but I will claim zero dependents and all will hopefully be well. It was solved when I sent the 129 bucks with interest and that was the difference claiming her as a dependent.

The long and short is she can be on a return but I cannot claim her as a dependent unless she is making money and gets a SSN . We travel lots and these agencies use snail mail and by the time we have returned to primary mailing address a time to respond period has expired. When we find a time we stay in one place for 3 months might be a good time to apply for a SSN

Thank you for being so very helpful with information and have answered any questions I have currently. I wanted to make sure we were legal and after reading everyone's informative posts with links both my account and attorney are convinced we are legal.

[Natureboy 1]

The 10 year restriction is for an ex-wife who has not remarried to draw benefits on your record.

The Bank of America fees on CCB ATM withdrawals began in Dec., 2013.

You can choose to follow the law or not. Either way, I suggest you read up on it.

Also Google "life without social security number".

Good luck

Oh wow so much good information. I think all my question have been answered and I am better informed to make decisions. Yes "be very careful about.....".

I think that is where we are. We are older and like to travel and are never home for more than three months. Tax returns get extensions because neither of us make any earned income and we are usually in China on April 15th. I get a SS check and Aiping has never had a job in the US so no income in US, ever. The process seemed to take so long for almost two years with USCIS and I needed to always be near the primary mailbox to fill out immigration forms that now we have her green card we do not want to waste a day sitting still because life is short. You never knew if you would get a letter in the mail in two weeks or two months you just knew you had to stay near the mailbox. People with the IRS, those with the SSA and let's not leave out the USCIS have difficult jobs everyday. They are good people with no axe to grind. There is little communication between agencies so each of us must be careful the choices we make. Honesty first but as someone said maybe good to wait for someone to ask for information first rather than always thinking we have not given enough already.

I appreciate your time and thoughtful comments. We both feel better about our choices after reading your comments . There is nothing to hide (We could only wish). We are an older couple and most of you are younger couples that will make their life in the US and both have careers. With nothing to hide I want to believe America is still a democracy of free people. Our careers are in the past and now it is just us, grandchildren and taking care of our elders. My wife is English challenged and would have difficult time here ,even though she has a car and drivers license, her own car insurance and has made it clear if something happens to me she will immediately return to China and family there.

I did google "life without a SS card" and could find nothing that would benefit Aiping except survivors benefits and I know if I died she would return to China and would loose that benefit. We have a large Chinese community here at the University. We have dinner together on Friday nights at a church. I will have Aiping talk with friends there and also on QQ. All are still working at the University and are much younger so I don't know how much benefit that would be but I will try.

When I read the info on Chinese hukou you gave us the link I became concerned. Aiping worked 28 years in China and they certainly did not turn down money for the two additonal years I paid for so she could retire in 2015. About 8,000 USD. Could she loose her Chinese residency and retirement because she is living in the US? These questions make me be patient and wait for someone to ask us more questions. So far no problems in China and no problems in US or any other country we have visited. She keeps her Chinese passport and her Chinese Papa's name. We are so lucky to have found each other.

Thanks again and may your life and that of your families be blessed

[RandyW 149]

. . .

When I read the info on Chinese hukou you gave us the link I became concerned. Aiping worked 28 years in China and they certainly did not turn down money for the two additonal years I paid for so she could retire in 2015. About 8,000 USD. Could she loose her Chinese residency and retirement because she is living in the US? These questions make me be patient and wait for someone to ask us more questions. So far no problems in China and no problems in US or any other country we have visited. She keeps her Chinese passport and her Chinese Papa's name. We are so lucky to have found each other.

. . .

I didn't mean to alarm you with the People's Daily article. I'll repeat what I said earlier about it.

I would caution anyone whose spouse has a green card or citizenship and still has their hukou registration to MAKE SURE OF WHAT THEY'RE DOING before canceling their hukou. That is, make sure that it actually is required.

I see it as exactly what the article states - a corruption fighting tool, and not really applicable to our spouses. I would recommend not doing anything, unless you hear more about it. Remember that just by asking, you are potentially notifying them as to your status.

Just being aware can help keep the rumors in line, and help you figure out what to do when the time comes.

It DOES state "It is mandatory for Chinese citizens who settle in other countries to cancel their household registrations, or hukou, before emigrating.", but I don't see that that can possibly be a workable policy for the Chinese to apply to our spouses, especially those who have paid into retirement programs. I would treat that SOLELY as a rumor, until and unless you hear more - but one that you should be aware of.

[Owen_London 65]

Yes my CPA has given me this same info and no she has never made worked or made any money in the US. We meet all thresholds for reporting any money we have in foreign banks outside of the US. We are not wealthy people nor do we have money to evade taxes (I can only wish) They are looking for people in US with 50K plus in a foreign bank that has not been reported. She meets the green card test because she has received no income from China, no gifts in US or China, has not made any income in China or US.

This began when we got an extension on our 2013 return (the first return she would be a dependant) so did not file until July 2013 since we had been in China.

I should have known better than to file jointly with claiming her as a dependent. It was a lousy 129 bucks savings. Kicked back of course because just being my wife does not make her a dependent unless she has a SSN or ITIN not the USCIS#. I will file jointly again but I will claim zero dependents and all will hopefully be well. It was solved when I sent the 129 bucks with interest and that was the difference claiming her as a dependent.

The long and short is she can be on a return but I cannot claim her as a dependent unless she is making money and gets a SSN . We travel lots and these agencies use snail mail and by the time we have returned to primary mailing address a time to respond period has expired. When we find a time we stay in one place for 3 months might be a good time to apply for a SSN

Thank you for being so very helpful with information and have answered any questions I have currently. I wanted to make sure we were legal and after reading everyone's informative posts with links both my account and attorney are convinced we are legal.

I think you are confused in a couple of ways.

Firstly, she is liable to US taxes, which must be reported on form 1040 (or 1040EZ or 1040A). Your comment about "the green card test" seems confused. The green card test is about whether she has to file US taxes or not. By having a green card, she is required to file taxes. What you talk about for "thresholds" relates to whether she (or both of you together if married filing taxes jointly) need to report foreign assets on forms 8938 (FATCA) and/or FINCEN 114 (FBAR), in addition to filing taxes on form 1040.

It is possible that she doesn't reach the income level required to file a tax return, but bear in mind that level includes foreign-source income.

Secondly, for tax purposes she is your spouse not your dependent. Examples of dependents are children (most often), or elderly parents, not spouses. Getting her an SSN will not make her eligible to be your dependent because she's your spouse. She will need an SSN for you to file jointly or for her to file married filing separately.

This is all fairly basic information that your CPA should have made clear to you if you gave them as much information as you provided here. If your CPA is advising you to claim your spouse as a dependent, you should fire them.

Her social security card should not take 3 months to come. It will depend on your local social security office to some extent, but it is likely to be nearer two weeks.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Owen_London

[Natureboy 1]

I think you are confused in a couple of ways.

Firstly, she is liable to US taxes, which must be reported on form 1040 (or 1040EZ or 1040A). Your comment about "the green card test" seems confused. The green card test is about whether she has to file US taxes or not. By having a green card, she is required to file taxes. What you talk about for "thresholds" relates to whether she (or both of you together if married filing taxes jointly) need to report foreign assets on forms 8938 (FATCA) and/or FINCEN 114 (FBAR), in addition to filing taxes on form 1040.

It is possible that she doesn't reach the income level required to file a tax return, but bear in mind that level includes foreign-source income.

Secondly, for tax purposes she is your spouse not your dependent. Examples of dependents are children (most often), or elderly parents, not spouses. Getting her an SSN will not make her eligible to be your dependent because she's your spouse. She will need an SSN for you to file jointly or for her to file married filing separately.

This is all fairly basic information that your CPA should have made clear to you if you gave them as much information as you provided here. If your CPA is advising you to claim your spouse as a dependent, you should fire them.

Her social security card should not take 3 months to come. It will depend on your local social security office to some extent, but it is likely to be nearer two weeks.

Sorry to make you feel I was confused...that was not my intention. Zero income for two years both in China and in US qualifies my wife for zero income. I am merely trying to help others with my experience. It will apply to few because most of you are young people with a career in front of you. My wife and I have our "working for money" career behind us and hopefully I have saved enough money to take us to the end. Time to volunteer and give back money and time. I should not have replied to these as quotes but added a response to the question. I am having to give the same answer several times. Yes looking back I was stupid to file her as my dependent. Corrected return...129 bucks plus interest and the IRS has signed me off for 2013 taxes.

We will file returns as required by the IRS. Always have. With the information you and others have graciously provided I feel more confident about making decisions and responding to questions if asked. I retired in 2000 and policies change, part of the reason for asking people such as you for your experience. Trying to make sure the CPA is informed as best as possible. With so many agencies in the US government it is often difficult to determine exactly what each wants until they ask. Often in the past that has been the best policy. This is not about money it is how much money does it cost to keep our lives as simple as possible.

I hope one day I can be as helpful to you. Have a great weekend.

[CowBoE 429]

This is actually a good topic for many. I've raised a slightly similar question regarding what would be the best way to handle (eventually withdrawing my fiancee's social security funds from China) but haven't been able to get clear answers.

Regarding building retirement fund, another thing to consider is she has to file enough (40 qualifying quarters) tax in US

to qualify to Social Security benefits in US. So you might take that into calculation as well.

I'm learning some relevant facts from this thread. I wish greater participation on how others have handled

their Chinese retirement funds after they moved to US.

[RandyW 149]

This is actually a good topic for many. I've raised a slightly similar question regarding what would be the best way to handle (eventually withdrawing my fiancee's social security funds from China) but haven't been able to get clear answers.

Regarding building retirement fund, another thing to consider is she has to file enough (40 qualifying quarters) tax in US

to qualify to Social Security benefits in US. So you might take that into calculation as well.

I'm learning some relevant facts from this thread. I wish greater participation on how others have handled

their Chinese retirement funds after they moved to US.

Look into Spousal and Survivor's benefits, as well. Depending on how her own earnings stack up vs. yours that is most likely to her advantage.

Edited September 23, 2014 by RandyW

[Owen_London 65]

Sorry for the delay replying. Good luck.

[Mary & Dave 0]

While you are alive she will qualify for SS spousal benefits (most likely half of what you receive). This is in addition to what you receive and does not reduce your SS amount.

If you were to die, the amount will increase to the survivor amount (rather than spousal amount). The ten years only applies to ex-spouses. Even if you die the day after you get married she is entitled to benefits based on your work record.