elmcitymaven

Uh, yeah. I'll say so.
Listen Julian, I am putting my big girl hat on right now (I may still be in my silky peignoir but don't let that distract you). Your fiancee is a very sweet girl who is obviously in love with you. It would behoove you to start treating her with a little respect now and again. Whatever your "issues" might be right now, I would start thinking about getting things right with her before she tells you to sling your hook again. If the volcanic ash cloud permits, you might also consider booking a flight out to LAX pronto.

IMO, those 'worst offenders' for the last 3 quarters should be banned from VJ, accounts closed. I understand what yer saying here, and actually agree with it. The final 'what to do', again IMO, is to flush them , be here no more. Warnings via PM from the management hasn't worked (I'm assuming PMs were sent) and they're still doing it.

So we're to know which questions are serious and which are inane before we ask them then? Oh I see, yes thank you so very much, that makes SO much sense. We should know the answer to the question BEFORE we ask, thereby knowing if we should ask the question or not in the first place. Is that the sort of logic they're teaching at American universities these days?
Well then do pay attention please.
That's rich, coming from one of the self-appointed internet police. I'm snobbish because I expect answers on an internet forum designed to give answers, rather than put-downs and mocking behavior. I think you'd do well to listen to Rob and Jill, who suggested earlier that if you have nothing positive to add then just move along.

If the desire for OT to be heavily moderated, Ewok will need to move away from the current practice of only addressing complaints. Most posts will need to be read, and for this to happen OT will need a large number of dedicated (OT only) moderators. As is the case with anything with a large number of staff, guidelines for what constitutes appropriate use have to be clear and concise and unambiguous.

I'd amend that a little to additionally include posters who conflate bigotry with ideology. There quite a few of those. They are the same people who will express page after page of outrage if some scientist in the UK writes an intemperate email to a peer about a global warming dissenter but will maintain absolute silence in the face of blatant bigotry and racism, because the bigot/racist is on "their side" of the ideological divide.
I disagree. Repulsive opinions do not deserve civility. In fact, when you are civil in the face of opinions of that nature, you give them a veneer of respectability. That is unacceptable.

The bottom line is that the current state of OT along with its atmosphere bleeding into the upper forums drives away membership. I think admin has acted on the desires of the vocal minority that want less moderation. Wasn't there a survey not so long ago that indeed showed that "the people" want a more heavily moderated site?

Uh, yeah. I'll say so.
Listen Julian, I am putting my big girl hat on right now (I may still be in my silky peignoir but don't let that distract you). Your fiancee is a very sweet girl who is obviously in love with you. It would behoove you to start treating her with a little respect now and again. Whatever your "issues" might be right now, I would start thinking about getting things right with her before she tells you to sling your hook again. If the volcanic ash cloud permits, you might also consider booking a flight out to LAX pronto.

Say now Julian, it just might be time to man up, say?

Amen, Sister Julez.
I'm meeting up with Melissa tonight -- understandably she doesn't want to come on VJ right now. I'm staging an intervention, but with alcohol.

I tend to believe Melissa over you. You'd just love us to believe she is lying as this indiscretion of yours makes you look even worse than the picture of yourself that you've already painted.
I really hope Melissa wakes up and smells the coffee that she deserves better than you.

Uh, yeah. I'll say so.
Listen Julian, I am putting my big girl hat on right now (I may still be in my silky peignoir but don't let that distract you). Your fiancee is a very sweet girl who is obviously in love with you. It would behoove you to start treating her with a little respect now and again. Whatever your "issues" might be right now, I would start thinking about getting things right with her before she tells you to sling your hook again. If the volcanic ash cloud permits, you might also consider booking a flight out to LAX pronto.

An occassional post while viewing new content messages is a far cry from regularly visiting a forum. Once again you have missed the forest for the trees ... -1

Wow. That was an amazingly succinct synopsis of the entirety of OT. Bravo.

Wow. That was an amazingly succinct synopsis of the entirety of OT. Bravo.

The entire moderation structure needs changed. Not just OT.
Until you have real moderation and an active Admin, you'll have no solutions.

For the finale, I'm going to tie you up with microfilm.

Yes of course. Because all Brits are in fact extras from a Dickens novel and go about taking swords from watery tarts whilst wearing bowlers and referring to everyone they see as 'govnah.'
Americans.

You very lightly mention that people move on from VJ, but fail to address that the reason many seasoned vets have moved on because this place has become a 'cesspool'. Their concerns are not addressed. Ewok just lets them go, allowing the bullies to proliferate, and even appointing one a junior woodchuck mod. Just to shrug one's shoulders over the emigration from this site, to me, is evidence that you don't actually care.

Why should any of us care about civility on this forum? A global mod, who should care, doesn't give a rat's #######. 'Captain' Ewok certainly doesn't care. A certain Junior Woodchuck mod roams the forum trolling with obnoxious/unhelpful comments. I am certain the departures from VJ are related to this uncaring attitude.
Steven, how dare you care? Flame on, peeps.

I think you are my VJ hero today, Johnny.
For the love of god, yes. The level of unabashed f^cktardedness seems to be rising on a nearly daily basis. Even if giving a "-1" gave pleasure only to the one who doled it out, it would be deeply satisfying.
Campaign to Bring Back the "-1" rating starts NOW.
Edit to add: And while we're at it, bring back rebeccajo, who I believe was a completely self-contained "-1" system unto herself.
Edit to add redux: Fixx0red atrocious grammar in the addendum; I got the case all wrong. Oh, the shame.

Maven encourages the idea of getting a rise out of Julian.
Julian, I think I'm starting to fall in love with you.

I have to agree with every word of this. I'm a very occasional OT poster. If someone says something I find contemptible and I feel like responding I will try to do so in a reasoned and impersonal way. If I am shown contempt in the response then I'm inclined to show contempt back because it's impossible to reason or be neutral with a lot of posters here. Most often I just walk away from the discussion when it no longer holds my interest. There are some very reasonable people who post in OT but any discourse with them is lost in the fight that ensues between them and the "neanderthal" opposition. That's probably most likely why people give up on OT because their voices are never heard unless they post something controversial and inflammatory.
This doesn't just happen in OT either, although it true to say the behaviour is more rife in OT, personal attacks occur in the upper forums where the more serious business of this site is conducted. Sometimes I'll play with the game-players (yes, I am guilty), other times I would rather be doing something else. However, if I feel someone really needs good advice amongst all the unhelpful nonsense going on I'll PM them and refer them to another site where I feel the admin cares and they will get the answers they need without having to get involved in any games. Maybe it's a symptom of my general feelings of derision towards this site and the way that people conduct themselves. As noted in the quote above, it's probably too late for the older crowd to break the habit of toying with the Neanderthals.
Congratulations T-bone on the little T-bone!!

The comment I actually saw which inspired this thread was that of a member giving advice in a forum, while at the same time making a disparaging remark about persons from a certain country.
Heather, IMO we have enough of a quantity of members around here who post their advice with a good deal of toxicity. Even if their advice is right on, I'd like the opportunity to give them a minus for being a #######.
*edited once again for spelling*

The only other solution I see is having moderation for each forum. And that means enough moderators so there is constant coverage.
I know that sounds startling, but my experience is THAT IS HOW IT IS DONE with other heavy traffic websites.
IMO the present report system is inadequate. It can be hours before something is dealt with. What you have on Vj is basically a non-monitored atmosphere. If Admin wants that, then fine. But it's patently unfair for a membership (who is subjected to that careless result)to have no recourse other than ringing up a Mod and hoping they will be around to answer.

Kathryn, thank you for the post. I think it pretty much spells out what I feel is the matter with OT; to see it come from a mod is encouraging. I spend the bulk of my time in the UK forum for the very reasons you cite -- it's safe, I know the people there, they know my story and I know theirs. Our shared experience fosters a sense of community, and I have made several "real life" friends in there that I see on a regular basis, which in my case only strengthens the bond.
HB -- we get along very well in the UK sub-forum but I'm a little disappointed to see you pick out my point about the amount of racism -- whether overt or imputed. I was certainly employing hyperbole when I stated that it seemed every other thread was "I Hate Brown People." Perhaps it is my ancestry that makes me more sensitive to some of the attacks, even if I do not support illegal immigration, feel that the current impasse this country finds itself in is insupportable and that the sheer number of such people IS damaging this country. (Hell, I live in SoCal so it is up close and personal.) My own grandparents were illegal immigrants themselves, fleeing the Mexican Revolution as children; my grandmother and her little sister were put into saddlebags on a burro and brought over to Texas. And although my family completely assimilated (to the point that none of my generation can speak a word of Spanish beyond "donde esta la biblioteca" and "ay yi yi"), reading some of the things written in OT about Hispanic people are truly hurtful, even if I don't identify with being Hispanic at all, having been raised in New England amongst my mother's Irish/Scottish/Belgian/English family. I would feel the same way if people were hurling the same sort of invective at Belgians (an unlikely event, it's true).
And yes, it IS a hoary old chestnut to say VJ is worse than it ever has been (rebeccajo's riffs on this were epic) and it may be glib to toss that sort of sentiment around. But the amount of spammy nonsense that appears on there -- articles that are posted merely as red rags to the usual gelded bulls -- has undeniably risen. It's the work of a few people, and is such a turn off. It makes OT boring as f^ck and look like a boys' club. Pass.
This is turning into one of the more reasoned and interesting conversations I've seen on VJ for a while.