Pasadena police say Horn shot the 2 men in the back

[peejay 327]

Pasadena police say Horn shot 2 men in the back

Both men were hit by shotgun blasts after entering Joe Horn's front yard

By CINDY HORSWELL and ROBERT STANTON

2007 Houston Chronicle

The two burglary suspects killed by Pasadena homeowner Joe Horn were shot in the back after they ventured into his front yard, police disclosed Friday.

In another twist, investigators revealed that a plainclothes Pasadena detective witnessed the Nov. 14 shootings after he pulled up in an unmarked car seconds before Horn fired three shots from his 12-gauge shotgun.

The men, who had just burglarized Horn's neighbor's house, faced him from seven to 10 feet away when they ignored his order to "not move"or they would be dead, police said.

The controversial shootings have outraged minority activists but also brought an outpouring of support for Horn.

"We now have a summary documenting what we think happened," said Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "We will turn it over to the district attorney in a couple of weeks after we do an extensive review for quality control."

The district attorney will then present the case to a grand jury to determine if any charges should be filed against Horn, 61, a computer consultant, who has claimed self-defense.

The two men — Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 48 — collapsed and died not far from Horn's home on Timberline in a Pasadena neighborhood.

Both were illegal immigrants from Colombia, authorities said. Torres had been deported to Colombia in 1999 after serving time for possession with intent to distribute cocaine. Both were also using fake identification cards and aliases, and their backgrounds are now being scrutinized by federal authorities to determine if they were part of a Colombian fake ID and burglary ring, authorities said.

On Friday, Corbett described the shooting scenario that had been pieced together so far.

According to a transcript of Horn's 911 call, at 2 p.m., he became concerned that his next- door neighbor's home was being burglarized after hearing some glass break.

The dispatcher repeatedly urges Horn to stay in his house but Horn states that he doesn't feel it's right to let the burglars get away.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn tells the dispatcher. "You hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going."

The dispatcher replies: "Don't go outside."

Then the tape records Horn warning someone: "Move and you're dead!" Two quick shots can be heard, followed by a pause and then a third shot.

Corbett said the plainclothes detective, whose name has not been released, had parked in front of Horn's house in response to the 911 call. He saw the men between Horn's house and his neighbor's before they crossed into Horn's front yard.

Corbett believes neither Horn nor the men knew a police officer was present.

"It was over within seconds. The detective never had time to say anything before the shots were fired," Corbett said. "At first, the officer was assessing the situation. Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.

Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

"The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."

Autopsy report

The wounded man crossed the street, collapsed and died, authorities said. At the same time, the other man had turned and ran away from Horn.

Horn swung his shotgun around after shooting the first man and fired at the second one after he entered the neighbor's yard, investigators said.

He was hit in the back but continued running until collapsing a few hundred yards down the street, Corbett said.

According to a final ruling, Ortiz died of shotgun wounds to his neck and torso, said Ellie Wallace, an investigator at the Harris County Medical Examiner's Office.

The report said that Torres died of shotgun wounds to his torso and upper left extremity.

Wallace could not confirm whether the men were shot in the back, saying the autopsy report only indicated they were shot in the torso.

Neither suspect was armed, but one had a "center punch," a 6-inch pointed metal tool, in his pocket that might be used as a weapon, authorities said.

Also, they were carrying a sack filled with more than $2,000 in cash and assorted jewelry believed taken in the burglary, police said.

Self-defense claim

Investigators believe a third person may have driven the men from Houston to the Pasadena neighborhood. Police could find no vehicle belonging to the pair parked in the area.

On the 911 tape, Horn mentioned a new state law that allows residents to protect their own home from intruders.

"This case is a little different," Corbett said. "We'll have to let the grand jury sort this one out."

Horn's attorney, Charles T. Lambright, said his client fired in self-defense because he feared for his life.

"One of them (suspects) moved and Joe thought he was coming towards him," Lambright said. "They were in such close proximity (to Horn) that they could be on top of him in half a second."

The fact that a police officer witnessed the shooting but did not arrest Horn is further evidence that he acted in self-defense, he said.

"You've got a trained police officer sitting there watching this, and he doesn't arrest Horn," Lambright said. "If the (plainclothes) officer thought it was not a righteous shooting, maybe the Pasadena Police Department would have arrested Mr. Horn for murder."

Civil rights activist Quanell X said he would step up the call for a murder indictment against Horn, and questioned whether the Pasadena police should investigate the case.

Quanell X said the shooting should be handled instead by the Texas Rangers and the FBI.

"I don't trust the Pasadena Police Department," he said. "Why are they just now releasing the fact that an undercover officer witnessed the whole thing? This case stinks."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5362232.html

[Peikko 1,575]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

For me this illustrates the tragedy of this new law, if Horn isn't prosecuted it's allowing ordinary citizens to make considered decisions to take another's life. Is that the intention of this new law? If someone genuinely fears for their life or safety, that's one thing. However, this guy was in a safe area and chose to put himself into a conceivably dangerous situation because he didn't like these guys breaking the law (or at least, that was his assessement of the situation and he could just as easily have been wrong as illustrated by the plain clothes policeman's reaction to the situation)

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

There is the difficulty for me, I believe the guy, Horn, thought he was doing not only a legal thing, but a good thing. However, the more blurry you make the line between acting in self defence and culpable homicide, the more difficult you make it to prove culpable homicide which, in my opinion, is a very bad road to travel.

[peejay 327]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

That still doesn't change the fact that he may have charges to answer.

[Ban Hammer 14,297]

When Horn confronted the suspects in his yard, he raised his shotgun to his shoulder, Corbett said. However the men ignored his order to freeze.

Corbett said one man ran toward Horn, but had angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back just before reaching the curb.

"The detective confirmed that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted," said Corbett. "Horn said he felt in jeopardy."

game......set........match.

end of this story, what's next?

[peejay 327]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

That still doesn't change the fact that he may have charges to answer.

I'll let you know. Or you can keep up with it yourself at:

http://www.chron.com

But I'd bet the farm the Horn gets 'no billed" by the grand jury (no charges filed). Just a gut feeling.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

That still doesn't change the fact that he may have charges to answer.

I'll let you know. Or you can keep up with it yourself at:

http://www.chron.com

But I'd bet the farm the Horn gets 'no billed" by the grand jury (no charges filed). Just a gut feeling.

Well it is Texas - so you're probably right. That said, I agree with PH that this case has the makings of a disturbing precedent.

[natty bumppo 297]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

That still doesn't change the fact that he may have charges to answer.

I'll let you know. Or you can keep up with it yourself at:

http://www.chron.com

But I'd bet the farm the Horn gets 'no billed" by the grand jury (no charges filed). Just a gut feeling.

Well it is Texas - so you're probably right. That said, I agree with PH that this case has the makings of a disturbing precedent.

your comment might be too late ... by decades

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

That still doesn't change the fact that he may have charges to answer.

I'll let you know. Or you can keep up with it yourself at:

http://www.chron.com

But I'd bet the farm the Horn gets 'no billed" by the grand jury (no charges filed). Just a gut feeling.

Well it is Texas - so you're probably right. That said, I agree with PH that this case has the makings of a disturbing precedent.

your comment might be too late ... by decades

If that were the case we wouldn't have all this legal wrangling in these types of cases over what constitutes "self defence", and "reasonable force".

[natty bumppo 297]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

That still doesn't change the fact that he may have charges to answer.

I'll let you know. Or you can keep up with it yourself at:

http://www.chron.com

But I'd bet the farm the Horn gets 'no billed" by the grand jury (no charges filed). Just a gut feeling.

Well it is Texas - so you're probably right. That said, I agree with PH that this case has the makings of a disturbing precedent.

your comment might be too late ... by decades

If that were the case we wouldn't have all this legal wrangling in these types of cases over what constitutes "self defence", and "reasonable force".

protection of property has been in TX for a long time. so has self defense.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

That still doesn't change the fact that he may have charges to answer.

I'll let you know. Or you can keep up with it yourself at:

http://www.chron.com

But I'd bet the farm the Horn gets 'no billed" by the grand jury (no charges filed). Just a gut feeling.

Well it is Texas - so you're probably right. That said, I agree with PH that this case has the makings of a disturbing precedent.

your comment might be too late ... by decades

If that were the case we wouldn't have all this legal wrangling in these types of cases over what constitutes "self defence", and "reasonable force".

protection of property has been in TX for a long time. so has self defense.

Most States, and indeed most countries have some sort of laws in place covering self-defence. How these terms apply to specific situations and circumstances is what is in question.

[natty bumppo 297]

Then he was worried Horn might mistake him for the 'wheel man' (get-away driver). He ducked at one point."

Luckily for Horn the guys he shot are percieved by everyone as 'bad buys'. How different would it have been if he had indeed shot the police officer?

But he didn't shoot the cop...did he? And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

The truth is that all this went down in the space of 6 minutes or less. You had a week to disect the situation. This was a 61 year old guy that had this hot potato thrown in his lap and had to deal with it NOW. He wasn't looking for trouble...it found him.

Some people remind me of the Royal Bank of Scotland ads on TV where everybody stands around with their hands in their pockets analyzing into infinity while the guy sinks over his head in quicksand. One guy actually does something and saves the guy in the quicksand before he dies while everybody else is still busy analyzing.

I don't think Horn necessarily needs a medal and a parade to celebrate what he did, but he is no murderer. The guy probably just wants to be left alone.

That still doesn't change the fact that he may have charges to answer.

I'll let you know. Or you can keep up with it yourself at:

http://www.chron.com

But I'd bet the farm the Horn gets 'no billed" by the grand jury (no charges filed). Just a gut feeling.

Well it is Texas - so you're probably right. That said, I agree with PH that this case has the makings of a disturbing precedent.

your comment might be too late ... by decades

If that were the case we wouldn't have all this legal wrangling in these types of cases over what constitutes "self defence", and "reasonable force".

protection of property has been in TX for a long time. so has self defense.

Most States, and indeed most countries have some sort of laws in place covering self-defence. How these terms apply to specific situations and circumstances is what is in question.

self defense laws differ from state to state ... don't forget that

[Peikko 1,575]

And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

Because it's not as if there was a determination of certaintity that knew he was shooting at criminals, this could so easily have turned into a far more tragic situation with 'innocent victims'. It was an assumption that turned out to be correct, as far as we know but, if you allow for this rather loose interpretation of self defence, you are really opening the door wide for very fudged lines between what is an 'acceptable killing' and one that isn't acceptable.

It seems to me that it is more acceptable to allow for self defence when there is real danger, but to allow a plea of self defence when you put yourself into a dangerous situation deliberately, because you think a crime is taking place, that's a whole different ball game.

[natty bumppo 297]

And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

Because it's not as if there was a determination of certaintity that knew he was shooting at criminals, this could so easily have turned into a far more tragic situation with 'innocent victims'. It was an assumption that turned out to be correct, as far as we know but, if you allow for this rather loose interpretation of self defence, you are really opening the door wide for very fudged lines between what is an 'acceptable killing' and one that isn't acceptable.

It seems to me that it is more acceptable to allow for self defence when there is real danger, but to allow a plea of self defence when you put yourself into a dangerous situation deliberately, because you think a crime is taking place, that's a whole different ball game.

Lots of assumptions and what ifs here ... you weren't there and the armchair is very safe for you.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And if pigs had wings they would fly. In other words...why make suppositions that didn't happen?

Because it's not as if there was a determination of certaintity that knew he was shooting at criminals, this could so easily have turned into a far more tragic situation with 'innocent victims'. It was an assumption that turned out to be correct, as far as we know but, if you allow for this rather loose interpretation of self defence, you are really opening the door wide for very fudged lines between what is an 'acceptable killing' and one that isn't acceptable.

It seems to me that it is more acceptable to allow for self defence when there is real danger, but to allow a plea of self defence when you put yourself into a dangerous situation deliberately, because you think a crime is taking place, that's a whole different ball game.

Lots of assumptions and what ifs here ... you weren't there and the armchair is very safe for you.

Well... the whole case is a 'what if'. Hence the investigation to see if charges are merited.