Anger at USCIS and security

[no name 1]

I thought all she was saying that it's not just as simple as 'get a job back home and wait twenty years for a number' (or, in the traditional form "if the peasant have no bread, why do they not eat cake?") because in some circumstances, waiting twenty years means abject poverty. Not that it was okay for 12 million to be here, but more like, they're not all evil corrupted spawn of Satan and that *maybe there should be a viable LEGAL path.*

Please note the word migrant, not immigrant.

Actually, I don't blame illegal immigrants one bit for making my husband's transition difficult! We know the conditions that those crossing illegally face, and have several friends who have crossed illegally. Of course, those we associate with are quietly trying to stay below the radar and go about their lives. And all of the illegal migrants we know would jump at the chance to wait in line for permission to be here legally, but these options just don't exist. There are very few cases in which someone in the family came over years ago, legally, and is now petitioning for their family members to come as well, but the wait is over decades. If you can't feed yourself nor find work in your home country, you don't have decades to wait.

There is no path except thru work/marriage/college. AS IT SHOULD BE.

Edited October 31, 2007 by devilette

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I dunno – you can’t exactly condemn desperate, impoverished people for acting out of desperation – even if that desperation does conflict with established laws.

[rebeccajo 14]

That's true...I shouldn't assume! So I'll ask a direct question: how much time have you spent talking and interacting with those who are in the types of situations where they have to make a decision about whether to continue living in abject poverty or make decisions that are against the law?

Breaking the law is not acceptable. EVER.

Why did you guys bother to follow the law? You obviously have no regard for it.

She has regard for it. She followed it. She also has compassion.

ah, compassion = amnesty/breaking the law. Gotcha!

Let's invite ALL poor illegals to join us here is America, cuz it's compassionate, you know.

Who said that? Who said give them amnesty?

Show me.

[Ban Hammer 12,900]

Are you absolutely sure that they drain more resources than they contribute? Or did you just get that info from stats that can be skewed to show that?

Education costs

The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states $7.4 billion annually—enough to buy a computer for every junior high student nationwide.9

FAIR estimates "there are currently between 287,000 and 363,000 children born to illegal aliens each year. This figure is based on the crude birth rate of the total foreign-born population (33 births per 1000) and the size of the illegal alien population (between 8.7 and 11 million). In 1994, California paid for 74,987 deliveries to illegal alien mothers, at a total cost of $215.2 million (an average of $2,842 per delivery). Illegal alien mothers accounted for 36 percent of all Medi-Cal funded births in California that year."

Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs. Some emergency rooms have shut down because they cannot afford to stay open. Local tax-paying Americans are either denied medical care or have to wait in long lines for service as the illegals flood the facilities. In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico."1

* Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

Two decades' growth in the supply of immigrant workers cost native-born American men an average $1,700 in annual wages by the year 2000, a top economist has concluded.5

link

Our recent study of the net fiscal “Costs of illegal immigration to Californians” estimated the partial costs at $10.5 billion in that state alone.

link

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

link

and then we have a short list of the crimes

link

[Peikko 1,575]

I guess the crux of the matter is that some have compassion for those in a situation that they perceive as untenable (people seeking release from poverty through any available means) and while they might understand that these migrants are in the US illegally, they can also get behind why they do what they do and really can't understand the vitriol behind those that say 'send their sorry arses back were they come from blah, blah, blah' without a thought to the real lives and stories.

In a black and white sense, yes, they are doing something illegal and so they should be punished, but in a compassion sense, many of these people are driven my so much more than, "I want a better life, and I want it at the expense of those stupid Americans."

[no name 1]

In a black and white sense, yes, they are doing something illegal and so they should be punished, but in a compassion sense, many of these people are driven my so much more than, "I want a better life, and I want it at the expense of those stupid Americans."

We have laws & borders for a reason. Obviously America is not keen on enforcing them. And we legal immgrant/USCs pay for that. (See Charles' post).

Edited October 31, 2007 by devilette

[Peikko 1,575]

No one is disputing the legality (at least I haven't seen that), however, as I said, why the vitriol? Why the anger if someone shows compassion? Some might even feel that what they pay (as tax payers) is worth it, in the bigger picture.

[Ban Hammer 12,900]

No one is disputing the legality (at least I haven't seen that), however, as I said, why the vitriol? Why the anger if someone shows compassion? Some might even feel that what they pay (as tax payers) is worth it, in the bigger picture.

it's not a break even deal for usc's and lpr's. we operate in the red on this. i don't know about you but i'm kinda tired of paying 15-20k a year in taxes.

[no name 1]

That's true...I shouldn't assume! So I'll ask a direct question: how much time have you spent talking and interacting with those who are in the types of situations where they have to make a decision about whether to continue living in abject poverty or make decisions that are against the law?

Breaking the law is not acceptable. EVER.

Why did you guys bother to follow the law? You obviously have no regard for it.

She has regard for it. She followed it. She also has compassion.

ah, compassion = amnesty/breaking the law. Gotcha!

Let's invite ALL poor illegals to join us here is America, cuz it's compassionate, you know.

Who said that? Who said give them amnesty?

Show me.

Not amnesty, my bad. Just living here illegally & no doubt using my tax $$ for their benefits. But hey, letting 12 million do that si called compassion, dontcha know?

Actually, I don't blame illegal immigrants one bit for making my husband's transition difficult! We know the conditions that those crossing illegally face, and have several friends who have crossed illegally. Of course, those we associate with are quietly trying to stay below the radar and go about their lives. And all of the illegal migrants we know would jump at the chance to wait in line for permission to be here legally, but these options just don't exist. There are very few cases in which someone in the family came over years ago, legally and is now petitioning for their family members to come as well, but the wait is over decades. If you can't feed yourself nor find work in your home country, you don't have decades to wait.

Edited October 31, 2007 by devilette

[Peikko 1,575]

Seriously though, how much impact on your tax bill do you think it would have if somehow illegal immigration was halted? I am betting on a big fat zero, so I can be as fed up (or not) as I want on how much tax I pay, it's not going to change.

It's an emotional topic, but I don't get the anger. Sorry, I never will.

[Ban Hammer 12,900]

Seriously though, how much impact on your tax bill do you think it would have if somehow illegal immigration was halted? I am betting on a big fat zero, so I can be as fed up (or not) as I want on how much tax I pay, it's not going to change.

It's an emotional topic, but I don't get the anger. Sorry, I never will.

if we're running a deficit in the billions, you can bet part of my taxes go to fund that somehow. same for yours. or do you think that 10 billion figure per year magically disappears every year?

[Peikko 1,575]

All probably true, but I still don't think I am going to get a tax reduction if illegal immigration is stamped out. Call me cynical...

[Ban Hammer 12,900]

All probably true, but I still don't think I am going to get a tax reduction if illegal immigration is stamped out. Call me cynical...

i'll agree to that. however, reducing the red ink by 10 billion a year would allow us to pay on other things like the budget deficit.

[no name 1]

All probably true, but I still don't think I am going to get a tax reduction if illegal immigration is stamped out. Call me cynical...

i'll agree to that. however, reducing the red ink by 10 billion a year would allow us to pay on other things like the budget deficit.

or.........................Universal Health Care!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The ‘reason’ we and other countries have those laws is to protect an economic & social status quo - that has little to do with idealistic conceptions of justice and morality.

What I find interesting about this subject is that people seem to think that this is a problem that will go away if we merely enforce a few laws. Essentially what we are talking about it “not in my back yard” and “out of sight, out of mind”. I can understand those sentiments, I can understand the anger at having to pay for a section of the population who shouldn’t be here racking up public charges. However none of it changes the motivations of the people migrating in this way, or indeed the conditions they face that motivate them to do so.

Granted – Mexico isn’t as destitute as a lot of 3rd world countries, but I do wonder whether the huge international outcry over, for example, the famine in Sudan would be as great if it were that country on the US’ doorstep – and if it were that country’s population swarming over the borders.

People seem happy to take principled, humanitarian stances towards countries and problems that are comfortably remote; rather less so when they see the effects up close, or which somehow impact their daily lives in a negative way.