Conservatives target 12-year-old boy and his family in S-CHIP debate

[Fandango 1,440]

People I work with (who are not self-employed) are able to do exactly that as well and legimately write it off as business expenses - we are talking about people who earn 6 figbures.

Personally, I'd rather kids had healthcare than upper-middle class people get such incredible tax breaks

You've missed my point entirely, Robin......

I don't think I did - your point was as a self-employed person he could have been making all sorts of deductions - though if his salary is $45k, they probably don't add up to a lot.

My point is that I have a bigger problem with the fact people who are relatively wealthy can make all kinds of spurious deductions for something that benefits no one but themselves under the guise of "business expenses" - I could deduct my cable bill and all my movie tickets, for example.

I would rather kids have S-Chip than be able to make such deductions.

It's not just the 'relatively wealthy' that can take those deductions...it's every self employed person.

Which you just speculated that they 'probably don't add up to a lot' so pls make up your mind here.

[joelunchbox 0]

Self employed people have tons of ways to make legitimate deductions on what we earn. You'd be AMAZED at the stuff that one could deduct.....from meals, to vacations! so that $45k figure may not be so accurate.

I could fly to Hawaii, stay in 5 star service, blow a ton of money, and before I come home, hold a seminar on real estate...and apparantly the whole thing is tax deductible! According to this program I'm in btw....this is not personal advice here, and I've never tested it out. 'Tax Strategies for the Self Employed' btw

People I work with (who are not self-employed) are able to do exactly that as well and legimately write it off as business expenses - we are talking about people who earn 6 figbures.

Personally, I'd rather kids had healthcare than upper-middle class people get such incredible tax breaks

You've missed my point entirely, Robin......

Not really, health care is one of those things where it is impossible to budget for it, unless you are in the super rich bracket, and that's the point really.

Anyone can budget for housing/food/transportation because these costs are pretty fixed. Who can really budget for health care when no one really knows when they might be faced with the extreme bills that certain conditions generate? Even if you can get health insurance there seems to be no guarantee that that insurance will foot the bill should you need to use it. The only people who are immune from this are people who earn millions and that's a pretty small proportion of the population.

It seems to ridiculous to make the 'take personal responsibility' argument with health care when it simply isn't possible to do.

As for the 'entrepreneurship is all about risk so taking health care out of the equation would somehow debase those who become entrepreneurs' argument that's simply absurd.

One can budget for a comprehensive health INSURANCE which is what I was talking about.

It is possible to be 'personally responsible'...it's just not EASY. There's a difference. I am rated through the roof because of my past medical history...and I could have used that as an excuse to somehow justify me not being responsible, but instead I choose to budget and pay the premiums that I have.

Entrepreneurship IS about taking risks and assuming financial burdens...one can choose to not go this route, and get a job with bennies. Or one can go the route of private insurance and become self employed OR have their spouse cover the health ins while (s)he tries to go self employed. There are choices....the choice of 'the American people should somehow pay for this while I attempt to start my own business to make more money' is #######.

Good points here: http://allspinzone.com/wp/2007/10/09/schip...conomic-racism/

and here: http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/...has-happen.html

I am afraid these two may have nailed the situation on the head...

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

It's not just the 'relatively wealthy' that can take those deductions...it's every self employed person.

Which you just speculated that they 'probably don't add up to a lot' so pls make up your mind here.

Maybe I don't know what your point is then - you suggested that the guy in question, a self-employed person making $45k, could be making all sorts of deductions which would allow him to pay for health insurance - his federal tax burden is less than $10k, which doesn't go very far for a large family to pay for health expenses.

My point (which is not related to yours by the way) is that maybe, just maybe a program which provides health insurance for children should be a bigger priority than providing tax breaks on holidays, entertainment , etc to the "self-employed" or even those who work for other people under the guise that they are a legitimate business expense when it probably isn't. And that many, many people who have a hell of a lot of money are making these kinds of deductions.

[Ban Hammer 14,286]

Self employed people have tons of ways to make legitimate deductions on what we earn. You'd be AMAZED at the stuff that one could deduct.....from meals, to vacations! so that $45k figure may not be so accurate.

I could fly to Hawaii, stay in 5 star service, blow a ton of money, and before I come home, hold a seminar on real estate...and apparantly the whole thing is tax deductible! According to this program I'm in btw....this is not personal advice here, and I've never tested it out. 'Tax Strategies for the Self Employed' btw

People I work with (who are not self-employed) are able to do exactly that as well and legimately write it off as business expenses - we are talking about people who earn 6 figbures.

Personally, I'd rather kids had healthcare than upper-middle class people get such incredible tax breaks

You've missed my point entirely, Robin......

Not really, health care is one of those things where it is impossible to budget for it, unless you are in the super rich bracket, and that's the point really.

Anyone can budget for housing/food/transportation because these costs are pretty fixed. Who can really budget for health care when no one really knows when they might be faced with the extreme bills that certain conditions generate? Even if you can get health insurance there seems to be no guarantee that that insurance will foot the bill should you need to use it. The only people who are immune from this are people who earn millions and that's a pretty small proportion of the population.

It seems to ridiculous to make the 'take personal responsibility' argument with health care when it simply isn't possible to do.

As for the 'entrepreneurship is all about risk so taking health care out of the equation would somehow debase those who become entrepreneurs' argument that's simply absurd.

One can budget for a comprehensive health INSURANCE which is what I was talking about.

It is possible to be 'personally responsible'...it's just not EASY. There's a difference. I am rated through the roof because of my past medical history...and I could have used that as an excuse to somehow justify me not being responsible, but instead I choose to budget and pay the premiums that I have.

Entrepreneurship IS about taking risks and assuming financial burdens...one can choose to not go this route, and get a job with bennies. Or one can go the route of private insurance and become self employed OR have their spouse cover the health ins while (s)he tries to go self employed. There are choices....the choice of 'the American people should somehow pay for this while I attempt to start my own business to make more money' is #######.

Good points here: http://allspinzone.com/wp/2007/10/09/schip...conomic-racism/

and here: http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/10/...has-happen.html

I am afraid these two may have nailed the situation on the head...

yeah they nailed it alright - emotional outbursts all throughout both links.

[Peikko 1,575]

You can budget for insurance, but you can't ensure that the insurance will cover any or all the costs of an expensive illness/accident and it would seem that many, many pre-existing conditions can make it prohibitively expensive to budget for insurance as well.

What I can't understand though, is the hair shirt argument, the 'it needs to be as difficult as possible or it's not worth it'.

Another thing I don't get is why defend a faulty/unfair system? It's not as if the US system caters for anyone particularly well. Yes, if you have the money you can take yourself to a nice boutique hospital and get the best care money can buy, but again, that's the point, that's the type of care that is limited to those who are super rich and that kind of care could always be available if one so wished.

What most people seem to be arguing for, when arguing for a UHS is for a system that really does ensure that those who need treatment get it with the least possible stress on the system as a whole and that preventative treatments are accessible to all. Why would anyone think this is a bad thing?

[Fandango 1,440]

It's not just the 'relatively wealthy' that can take those deductions...it's every self employed person.

Which you just speculated that they 'probably don't add up to a lot' so pls make up your mind here.

Maybe I don't know what your point is then - you suggested that the guy in question, a self-employed person making $45k, could be making all sorts of deductions which would allow him to pay for health insurance - his federal tax burden is less than $10k, which doesn't go very far for a large family to pay for health expenses.

My point (which is not related to yours by the way) is that maybe, just maybe a program which provides health insurance for children should be a bigger priority than providing tax breaks on holidays, entertainment , etc to the "self-employed" or even those who work for other people under the guise that they are a legitimate business expense when it probably isn't. And that many, many people who have a hell of a lot of money are making these kinds of deductions.

You seem to be straddling both sides of the fence by automatically speculating 'oh he doesn't make that many deductions' yet at the same time, wanting those deductions 'done away with' for the 'relatively wealthy'

My point is that no one knows what this man is making. Is the money he declared the gross or net after deductions? Which would significantly alter his eligibility for this proggie in the first place. He could be an independent contractor FOR his business, with the biz income being completely seperate to what he's claiming. Now, we could what if til the cows come home...but the facts aren't enough in this instance.

However, owning commercial property AND a $400K+ house should automatically disqualify this family from receiving assistance for health ins. for their children. You do not have assets that high while leaving the gov't to fend for your kids...End of.

[Peikko 1,575]

With a UHS this wouldn't be a problem as everyone would contribute to their own health care via taxes. UH are free at the point of take up, but they are not universal government hand outs. Most people do pay taxes.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

You seem to be straddling both sides of the fence by automatically speculating 'oh he doesn't make that many deductions' yet at the same time, wanting those deductions 'done away with' for the 'relatively wealthy'

My point is that no one knows what this man is making. Is the money he declared the gross or net after deductions? Which would significantly alter his eligibility for this proggie in the first place. He could be an independent contractor FOR his business, with the biz income being completely seperate to what he's claiming. Now, we could what if til the cows come home...but the facts aren't enough in this instance.

However, owning commercial property AND a $400K+ house should automatically disqualify this family from receiving assistance for health ins. for their children. You do not have assets that high while leaving the gov't to fend for your kids...End of.

I'm not straddling any fence - yes, I think these deductions should have far, far greater oversight than they currently do. I think the tax code should be completely reformed, but that's another thread. I do find it highly ironic that Michelle Malkin, who I believe is self-employed, would be able to deduct her trip to Baltimore to "find out the truth" and is effectively paid for by the tax payer

By stating that if he is making deductions they "probably don't add up to much" is not to question the validity of the deduction, but the notion this could somehow pay for healthcare for his family - it can't!

If we don't know if $45k is net or gross - well, why is the entire right-wing blogsphere bearing done on him if they don't know? Shouldn't they find out first before making all kinds of assumptions?

And do we seriously think that selling up and moving outside the area they have lived for many years and away from their only source of income is a viable option? Come on.

Maybe this guy doesn't "need" S-Chip, but its a pretty stupid crusade for the right.

[GaryC 7]

There is something that everyone (including me) is missing about this story. The kid was and is being covered by SCHIP as it exists right now!!!!! He was getting health care!! The veto didn't take away his coverage!!! Bush vetoed an 35 Billion EXPANSION of the bill and he was even in favor of an expansion just not this big of one!!!

[Ban Hammer 14,286]

With a UHS this wouldn't be a problem as everyone would contribute to their own health care via taxes. UH are free at the point of take up, but they are not universal government hand outs. Most people do pay taxes.

are you telling me that everyone is paying the same amount with that statement?

[Fandango 1,440]

You seem to be straddling both sides of the fence by automatically speculating 'oh he doesn't make that many deductions' yet at the same time, wanting those deductions 'done away with' for the 'relatively wealthy'

My point is that no one knows what this man is making. Is the money he declared the gross or net after deductions? Which would significantly alter his eligibility for this proggie in the first place. He could be an independent contractor FOR his business, with the biz income being completely seperate to what he's claiming. Now, we could what if til the cows come home...but the facts aren't enough in this instance.

However, owning commercial property AND a $400K+ house should automatically disqualify this family from receiving assistance for health ins. for their children. You do not have assets that high while leaving the gov't to fend for your kids...End of.

I'm not straddling any fence - yes, I think these deductions should have far, far greater oversight than they currently do. I think the tax code should be completely reformed, but that's another thread. I do find it highly ironic that Michelle Malkin, who I believe is self-employed, would be able to deduct her trip to Baltimore to "find out the truth" and is effectively paid for by the tax payer

By stating that if he is making deductions they "probably don't add up to much" is not to question the validity of the deduction, but the notion this could somehow pay for healthcare for his family - it can't!

If we don't know if $45k is net or gross - well, why is the entire right-wing blogsphere bearing done on him if they don't know? Shouldn't they find out first before making all kinds of assumptions?

And do we seriously think that selling up and moving outside the area they have lived for many years and away from their only source of income is a viable option? Come on.

Maybe this guy doesn't "need" S-Chip, but its a pretty stupid crusade for the right.

Because regardless of whether it's net or gross, someone with their amt of assets should NOT be receiving assistance. I said this already, but I guess you missed it.

Deductions can most certainly add up to enough to pay for health insurance btw.

Excellent point, Gary.....

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Deductions can most certainly add up to enough to pay for health insurance btw.

I'm sure they can - but if $45k is his gross earnings they almost certainly don't.

[Fandango 1,440]

Deductions can most certainly add up to enough to pay for health insurance btw.

I'm sure they can - but if $45k is his gross earnings they almost certainly don't.

Well his assets can

[Empress of Groovy 373]

It's not just the 'relatively wealthy' that can take those deductions...it's every self employed person.

Which you just speculated that they 'probably don't add up to a lot' so pls make up your mind here.

Actually, the medical expenses tax deduction scheme is not all that generous, and not all self-employed people can do it. First off, the business must be profitable, and self-employed people must be able to itemize (that is, have more $$ in deductions than the standard deduction, which often means having a mortgage). That's why the Republican candidates are forever talking about reforming this aspect of it. But that's another topic altogether.

LisaD, I don't think that our viewpoints are polar opposites on the self-employment challenges issue. I think where we diverge centers solely on the health care topic. For one thing, the U.S. system is indefensibly unfair. It is a shame that you have to pay so much because of your medical history. You consider taking care of health expenses as a personal responsibility that comes along with self-employment, whereas I believe that it should be an equitable, tax-funded service (which I'm glad to contribute to) available to all. It's ludicrous that health insurance is treated like car insurance. If you drive like a lunatic and have speeding tickets up the yin yang, of course you should pay higher premiums. Using a similar model to essentially penalize people unfortunate enough to have a chronic condition or history of illness is immoral. I wonder why more people don't see it that way.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Deductions can most certainly add up to enough to pay for health insurance btw.

I'm sure they can - but if $45k is his gross earnings they almost certainly don't.

Well his assets can

I assume his house hasn't increased in value while all the others in the area remain static so I'm a little sceptical that selling up would solve all his problems.