Collapse in US lending standards has "central banks are scared out of their minds"

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If your only advantage over another worker is simply that you are a USC, your likely to be screwed.

Well that's a big problem, isn't it? Given the choice between an illegal and a USC, it's the illegal

that's supposed to be "screwed", not the USC.

Exaaaaaaactly. The employer should not have a choice. With the current situation it is the American who loses as they are simply not hired in favor for the illegal immigrant. Any company caught employing illegal immigrants should be heavily fined and publicly shamed as they screwing over Americans for their own gain. Screwing over fellow Americans, for a profit, is NOT what this country was founded on.

Bizarrely one of the objections raised against the minimum wage is not that a person be paid a reasonable amount to maintain a minimum standard of living based on their area of residence, but that employers will start cutting corners, employ less people and the price of their products will go up.

[Heracles 417]

How many low skilled jobs do that? Unless you improve your skills, you are going to stay were you are at. Some might get into lead or manager positions, but there are not positions like that for everyone. And even then, you don't earn much more in a lead position over your average worker. Depending on your situation, you may still be in poverty.

A job is a job. It is a hell of a lot better than no income. Clearly the 12,000,000+ illegal immigrants are taking somebody else's job otherwise they would not be here. Why do you think Canada and Aus have a points system for immigrants. Only if there is a shortage in xyz will someone be allowed to migrate to the country, in limited numbers, on a work visa.

Whereas illegal immigrants come here as they see fit. Someone has to pay for this. While the employers win, the poor in America lose.

There is no shortage of jobs. In fact we have been adding jobs at a quite high rate. If someone doesn't have a job, there is probably a good reason for it.

Adding jobs only to be taken up by illegal immigrants; who in return ship their untaxed cash overseas.. The poor guy is getting royally screwed over. What chance do people have to get out of poverty if there is absolutely no stepping stone for them to do so?? They are not going to pay for college with a simple fast food job are they. as Caladan stated, in the past kids could at least take a few jobs on the side to get through college. This avenue is now not an option for them.

[Dan J 277]

And even then, you don't earn much more in a lead position over your average worker.

Really? I must have always been quite lucky then. Across various industries and companies. You just made my day. Thx.

I bet most of the people you started out at the bottom with are still there or in a similar job.

I beg to differ. I started out in one of those jobs (many of them really) and I did work my way up from the bottom. I picked apples, hoed fields, put up hay, flipped hamburgers and washed cars. Each job taught me something that I could use to step up in the world. They also kept me going while I worked my way through tech school. Now I couldn't do the same thing because of the illegals. They are willing to work for half of what I would make at the same job. I am essentially shut out of the starter jobs that Americans need when they try to get a start in life.

You can still do it, you just have to show a business that your worth more than someone else. If your only advantage over another worker is simply that you are a USC, your likely to be screwed. But if you can show that you have advantages or skills other workers don't have, then getting ahead is not very difficult and can definetly still be done today.

you're still not getting it are you?

usc + minimum wage / competing illegal * half minimum wage = no job.

No, its like this, higher paid worker and lower paid worker. They are both as productive, which one would you hire?

If you want to justify being paid more, you need to show that you are worth more.

obviously the legal choice, but such escapes you apparently.

a usc shouldn't have to justify why they should be paid the minimum wage over an illegal anyways. that's not brain surgery.

Yes, but to a business, its just a worker. To you, the worker is legal or illegal. Minimum wage doesn't matter. A USC will simply expect to be paid more. Even if what the business might pay the illegal is above minimum wage.

You can complain about it, or you can just accept it and do what you need to get ahead.

[Ban Hammer 14,571]

If your only advantage over another worker is simply that you are a USC, your likely to be screwed.

Well that's a big problem, isn't it? Given the choice between an illegal and a USC, it's the illegal

that's supposed to be "screwed", not the USC.

Exaaaaaaactly. The employer should not have a choice. With the current situation it is the American who loses as they are simply not hired in favor for the illegal immigrant. Any company caught employing illegal immigrants should be heavily fined and publicly shamed as they screwing over Americans for their own gain. Screwing over fellow Americans, for a profit, is NOT what this country was founded on.

Bizarrely one of the objections raised against the minimum wage is not that a person be paid a reasonable amount to maintain a minimum standard of living based on their area of residence, but that employers will start cutting corners, employ less people and the price of their products will go up.

or the price of their products will go up. hence the reasoning behind employing less people.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

And even then, you don't earn much more in a lead position over your average worker.

Really? I must have always been quite lucky then. Across various industries and companies. You just made my day. Thx.

I bet most of the people you started out at the bottom with are still there or in a similar job.

In my current field I did start out at the entry level and I'm not there anymore. Opportunity is there. I can't speak for those that are either comfortable where they are or unwilling to put forth the effort to get ahead. All I can say out of my personal experience is that there's opportunity.

[mawilson 2,133]

Yes, but to a business, its just a worker. To you, the worker is legal or illegal. Minimum wage doesn't matter. A USC will simply expect to be paid more. Even if what the business might pay the illegal is above minimum wage.

You can complain about it, or you can just accept it and do what you need to get ahead.

Hilarious. That's like saying, "to a trader, insider trading is just trading."

Do you realise that some things are illegal?

[GaryC 7]

If someone doesn't have a job, there is probably a good reason for it.

such as?

Illegals?

Or they don't want to do the jobs that are available. Have disabilities that limit the kind of jobs they can do. Have trouble holding down a job. No initiative to take education seriously or try to get ahead.

So let me understand you. You think it's OK to hire someone for sub minimum wages (which puts you on the side of big business). This by definition makes you anti-union because they are not paying union scale and are working without a contract. You don't care about the little guy (USC) because you say they should compete against an unfair system. You know what you sound like? The stereotypical republican!! Welcome friend!!!!

[Ban Hammer 14,571]

And even then, you don't earn much more in a lead position over your average worker.

Really? I must have always been quite lucky then. Across various industries and companies. You just made my day. Thx.

I bet most of the people you started out at the bottom with are still there or in a similar job.

I beg to differ. I started out in one of those jobs (many of them really) and I did work my way up from the bottom. I picked apples, hoed fields, put up hay, flipped hamburgers and washed cars. Each job taught me something that I could use to step up in the world. They also kept me going while I worked my way through tech school. Now I couldn't do the same thing because of the illegals. They are willing to work for half of what I would make at the same job. I am essentially shut out of the starter jobs that Americans need when they try to get a start in life.

You can still do it, you just have to show a business that your worth more than someone else. If your only advantage over another worker is simply that you are a USC, your likely to be screwed. But if you can show that you have advantages or skills other workers don't have, then getting ahead is not very difficult and can definetly still be done today.

you're still not getting it are you?

usc + minimum wage / competing illegal * half minimum wage = no job.

No, its like this, higher paid worker and lower paid worker. They are both as productive, which one would you hire?

If you want to justify being paid more, you need to show that you are worth more.

obviously the legal choice, but such escapes you apparently.

a usc shouldn't have to justify why they should be paid the minimum wage over an illegal anyways. that's not brain surgery.

Yes, but to a business, its just a worker. To you, the worker is legal or illegal. Minimum wage doesn't matter. A USC will simply expect to be paid more. Even if what the business might pay the illegal is above minimum wage.

You can complain about it, or you can just accept it and do what you need to get ahead.

actually, yes there is a difference. just ask a business owner busted by ice for employing illegals.

[Heracles 417]

If your only advantage over another worker is simply that you are a USC, your likely to be screwed.

Well that's a big problem, isn't it? Given the choice between an illegal and a USC, it's the illegal

that's supposed to be "screwed", not the USC.

Exaaaaaaactly. The employer should not have a choice. With the current situation it is the American who loses as they are simply not hired in favor for the illegal immigrant. Any company caught employing illegal immigrants should be heavily fined and publicly shamed as they screwing over Americans for their own gain. Screwing over fellow Americans, for a profit, is NOT what this country was founded on.

Bizarrely one of the objections raised against the minimum wage is not that a person be paid a reasonable amount to maintain a minimum standard of living based on their area of residence, but that employers will start cutting corners, employ less people and the price of their products will go up.

If the job is there the employer will need to hire somebody to do it. Yes even in the US where employers are renowned for working people to death and not seeing the link between happiness at work to productivity; even in the lowest paid job..

If they start cutting corners it is only the company that will suffer. EG FORD, GM..

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

And even then, you don't earn much more in a lead position over your average worker.

Really? I must have always been quite lucky then. Across various industries and companies. You just made my day. Thx.

I bet most of the people you started out at the bottom with are still there or in a similar job.

I beg to differ. I started out in one of those jobs (many of them really) and I did work my way up from the bottom. I picked apples, hoed fields, put up hay, flipped hamburgers and washed cars. Each job taught me something that I could use to step up in the world. They also kept me going while I worked my way through tech school. Now I couldn't do the same thing because of the illegals. They are willing to work for half of what I would make at the same job. I am essentially shut out of the starter jobs that Americans need when they try to get a start in life.

You can still do it, you just have to show a business that your worth more than someone else. If your only advantage over another worker is simply that you are a USC, your likely to be screwed. But if you can show that you have advantages or skills other workers don't have, then getting ahead is not very difficult and can definetly still be done today.

Not sure where you earn your bread but the ability to legally work in this country still matters where I work. I don't think I'd be there if it didn't.

[Heracles 417]

Yes, but to a business, its just a worker. To you, the worker is legal or illegal. Minimum wage doesn't matter. A USC will simply expect to be paid more. Even if what the business might pay the illegal is above minimum wage.

You can complain about it, or you can just accept it and do what you need to get ahead.

Well why don't we go back to slavery then. Hey they are free..

PS In a knowledge based economy a company's worker is their capital and best asset. Any company who fails to see that ends up bankrupt. It is people who built google; not cost cutting or cheap labor..

Edited August 21, 2007 by Boo-Yah!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its a conundrum - at what point do we strike a balance between paying a fair wage for USC to maintain a bare minimum standard of living and ensuring a companies profits and the availability of affordable products. Seems to me that a lot of people want it every which way. Can we have all these things without illegal labour being in the mix somehow?

[Dan J 277]

If someone doesn't have a job, there is probably a good reason for it.

such as?

Illegals?

Or they don't want to do the jobs that are available. Have disabilities that limit the kind of jobs they can do. Have trouble holding down a job. No initiative to take education seriously or try to get ahead.

So let me understand you. You think it's OK to hire someone for sub minimum wages (which puts you on the side of big business). This by definition makes you anti-union because they are not paying union scale and are working without a contract. You don't care about the little guy (USC) because you say they should compete against an unfair system. You know what you sound like? The stereotypical republican!! Welcome friend!!!!

Thats irellevent. Many illegals are also get paid above minimum wage. Although your arguments don't sound so good when you look at it that way.

Of course I'm anti-union, mostly anyway (As they have been rather abused). I don't think what a person earns should be based only on how long you work for a company. That style of thinking died a long time ago. What you should be paid, should depend what you can bring to the company.

Yes, life is unfair, welcome to life.

[Heracles 417]

You know what you sound like? The stereotypical republican!! Welcome friend!!!!

[Ban Hammer 14,571]

Its a conundrum - at what point do we strike a balance between paying a fair wage for USC to maintain a bare minimum standard of living and ensuring a companies profits and the availability of affordable products. Seems to me that a lot of people want it every which way. Can we have all these things without illegal labour being in the mix somehow?