Embracing Illegals

[Dan J 277]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

Me .. as a USC .. .with rights ... needs to compete with someone with zero rights who can and are denied payment or underpaid .. who do you think will get the "unpaid/ underpaid work"?

In a true free market, there is no such thing as legal and illegal worker. Employers would be able to hire who they want, workers can work for whoever they want. In the free market there is no such thing as being underpaid. If its your choice to be paid as such. As it is right now, workers in the US illegally don't have the ability to freely choose and will have employers who will exploit that. Give them the freedom, it will mostly go away.

[Dan J 277]

Ok Dan. It's clear. You're a free market guy. Nothing wrong with that. The part that we dont get is why the free market should benefit from illegal actions.

Your reply to Gary, above, is that he can still do those jobs, but he just has more competition for them. So, in your mind, legal and illegal residents should have equal standing in competing for those jobs? How does that work? show me another country where that thought is embraced.

Lets looks at the Applebees example. The premise here in this thread today is that some of the kitchen staff are illegal residents. And your comments seem to say that that's ok, its the free market - all will work out for the good. But the free market in this scenario is not making choices that are legal.

Now, if Applebees decided to outsource their cooking to another country where the wages were lower and they thought they could work out a business model that would incorporate this kind of outsourcing then - sure - that's a legal choice they can make. There would still be outcries from many about the outsourcing of local jobs, but it would be a policy discussion, not a legal discussion.

But according to your line of reasoning, They can have their cake and eat it too! But that's where the rub is. They can't say, "well, we want to outsource the cooking to a lower wage work force, but sending food orders over the border and transporting back the cooked food wont work for our customers, cause they like their food hot and dont have 2 days to wait to get their grilled cheese & BLT sandwiches back" <grin>. Since we still want the lower cost, we will just bring that lower cost work force here - oh well, so sad, too bad, if the workers come here ilegally.

Its the same as if Applebees decided that OSHA regulaations for worker safety were costing too much money and so they simply decided that they didnt want to pay for that and they were not going to follow them. According to your logic, that would be just fine. Free market and all... companies can choose what they want and if they have customer willing to buy, then all is good to go.....

It just doesn't compute like that....

Warm Regards,

Samby

As far as the free market is concerned, substitute legal workers for higher paid workers and illegal workers for lower paid workers. Would you still have a problem with it? Think of the market beyond countries and governments. If someone wants to do the same work for less money, what is wrong if the market wants to take advantage if it?

Nothing is wrong as long as the underlying pool of workers all are coming under the same controls, rules and laws. But until Global Earth evolves to a place where there is only a WORLD CITIZEN, not American's, Germans, Columbians, Canadians, Vietnamese, etc, etc...Then Free market contructs need to take into account these differences - as they do today. It is only those companies who are not LEGALLY following those defined (read LEGALLY CODIFIED) constructs (such as only hiring local workers who are legally authorized to work in that locale) that I have a problem with.

Warm Regards,

Samby

People have the right to demand that from their government. If they haven't why is that the problem of the free market?

Isn't it a good thing when workers want to come here to be subject to our laws? And if legal, they would be equal?

[natty bumppo 297]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

Me .. as a USC .. .with rights ... needs to compete with someone with zero rights who can and are denied payment or underpaid .. who do you think will get the "unpaid/ underpaid work"?

In a true free market, there is no such thing as legal and illegal worker. Employers would be able to hire who they want, workers can work for whoever they want. In the free market there is no such thing as being underpaid. If its your choice to be paid as such. As it is right now, workers in the US illegally don't have the ability to freely choose and will have employers who will exploit that. Give them the freedom, it will mostly go away.

You're saying FREE MARKETS supersede NATIONAL BORDERS ?

this is the USA with a free market within the borders of the USA. Free market global labor pool with zero accountability within the USA borders is wishful thinking on your part.

Please go to Brazil or any other country and try to legally work there as a legal person without proper authorization ... report your findings if possible.

[Dan J 277]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

Me .. as a USC .. .with rights ... needs to compete with someone with zero rights who can and are denied payment or underpaid .. who do you think will get the "unpaid/ underpaid work"?

In a true free market, there is no such thing as legal and illegal worker. Employers would be able to hire who they want, workers can work for whoever they want. In the free market there is no such thing as being underpaid. If its your choice to be paid as such. As it is right now, workers in the US illegally don't have the ability to freely choose and will have employers who will exploit that. Give them the freedom, it will mostly go away.

You're saying FREE MARKETS supersede NATIONAL BORDERS ?

this is the USA with a free market within the borders of the USA. Free market global labor pool with zero accountability within the USA borders is wishful thinking on your part.

Please go to Brazil or any other country and try to legally work there as a legal person without proper authorization ... report your findings if possible.

In a true free market, borders don't matter. Everyone is a consumer, everyone is a contributor. In many ways it is that way. But we still have restrictions. We provide subsidies to our farmers when it can be done cheaper elsewhere. We limit who can work in the US by immigration. We tariff certain imports and exports.

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Governments around the world are not equal, but the free market can empower then to demand more rights from their government than they get now. Making in essence all workers equal regardless of where they are.

We went through growing pains in adapting our culture to a free market. Look at history, like the Anaconda Mining Company or read The Jungle. Other countries are likely going through many of the same things.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Dan + Gemvita

[natty bumppo 297]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

Me .. as a USC .. .with rights ... needs to compete with someone with zero rights who can and are denied payment or underpaid .. who do you think will get the "unpaid/ underpaid work"?

In a true free market, there is no such thing as legal and illegal worker. Employers would be able to hire who they want, workers can work for whoever they want. In the free market there is no such thing as being underpaid. If its your choice to be paid as such. As it is right now, workers in the US illegally don't have the ability to freely choose and will have employers who will exploit that. Give them the freedom, it will mostly go away.

You're saying FREE MARKETS supersede NATIONAL BORDERS ?

this is the USA with a free market within the borders of the USA. Free market global labor pool with zero accountability within the USA borders is wishful thinking on your part.

Please go to Brazil or any other country and try to legally work there as a legal person without proper authorization ... report your findings if possible.

In a true free market, borders don't matter. Everyone is a consumer, everyone is a contributor. In many ways it is that way. But we still have restrictions. We provide subsidies to our farmers when it can be done cheaper elsewhere. We limit who can work in the US by immigration. We tariff certain imports and exports.

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Governments around the world are not equal, but the free market can empower then to demand more rights from their government than they get now. Making in essence all workers equal regardless of where they are.

You must believe in utopia.

When the rest of the would stops abusing workers... lets talk.

[Dan J 277]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

Me .. as a USC .. .with rights ... needs to compete with someone with zero rights who can and are denied payment or underpaid .. who do you think will get the "unpaid/ underpaid work"?

In a true free market, there is no such thing as legal and illegal worker. Employers would be able to hire who they want, workers can work for whoever they want. In the free market there is no such thing as being underpaid. If its your choice to be paid as such. As it is right now, workers in the US illegally don't have the ability to freely choose and will have employers who will exploit that. Give them the freedom, it will mostly go away.

You're saying FREE MARKETS supersede NATIONAL BORDERS ?

this is the USA with a free market within the borders of the USA. Free market global labor pool with zero accountability within the USA borders is wishful thinking on your part.

Please go to Brazil or any other country and try to legally work there as a legal person without proper authorization ... report your findings if possible.

In a true free market, borders don't matter. Everyone is a consumer, everyone is a contributor. In many ways it is that way. But we still have restrictions. We provide subsidies to our farmers when it can be done cheaper elsewhere. We limit who can work in the US by immigration. We tariff certain imports and exports.

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Governments around the world are not equal, but the free market can empower then to demand more rights from their government than they get now. Making in essence all workers equal regardless of where they are.

You must believe in utopia.

When the rest of the would stops abusing workers... lets talk.

The US did at one time too, we got past that. Other countries can to.

[natty bumppo 297]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

Me .. as a USC .. .with rights ... needs to compete with someone with zero rights who can and are denied payment or underpaid .. who do you think will get the "unpaid/ underpaid work"?

In a true free market, there is no such thing as legal and illegal worker. Employers would be able to hire who they want, workers can work for whoever they want. In the free market there is no such thing as being underpaid. If its your choice to be paid as such. As it is right now, workers in the US illegally don't have the ability to freely choose and will have employers who will exploit that. Give them the freedom, it will mostly go away.

You're saying FREE MARKETS supersede NATIONAL BORDERS ?

this is the USA with a free market within the borders of the USA. Free market global labor pool with zero accountability within the USA borders is wishful thinking on your part.

Please go to Brazil or any other country and try to legally work there as a legal person without proper authorization ... report your findings if possible.

In a true free market, borders don't matter. Everyone is a consumer, everyone is a contributor. In many ways it is that way. But we still have restrictions. We provide subsidies to our farmers when it can be done cheaper elsewhere. We limit who can work in the US by immigration. We tariff certain imports and exports.

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Governments around the world are not equal, but the free market can empower then to demand more rights from their government than they get now. Making in essence all workers equal regardless of where they are.

You must believe in utopia.

When the rest of the would stops abusing workers... lets talk.

The US did at one time too, we got past that. Other countries can to.

great you feel this way. when they stop ... this problem goes away ... yes ?

[Dan J 277]

I get your sarcasm. But to be honest there are a lot of people that would to this work that others claim Americans will not do. My formans 18y/o daughter de-tassels corn for college money. My younger cousins put up hay. The kids flock to the apple orchards to pick apples every fall. If Dan had his way those jobs will be gone and Americans that really do need the work will have one less option.

They would not be gone. The only thing that would change is that you may have more competition for the job. Is competition wrong? Or would you rather the government limit who you have to compete against?

Me .. as a USC .. .with rights ... needs to compete with someone with zero rights who can and are denied payment or underpaid .. who do you think will get the "unpaid/ underpaid work"?

In a true free market, there is no such thing as legal and illegal worker. Employers would be able to hire who they want, workers can work for whoever they want. In the free market there is no such thing as being underpaid. If its your choice to be paid as such. As it is right now, workers in the US illegally don't have the ability to freely choose and will have employers who will exploit that. Give them the freedom, it will mostly go away.

You're saying FREE MARKETS supersede NATIONAL BORDERS ?

this is the USA with a free market within the borders of the USA. Free market global labor pool with zero accountability within the USA borders is wishful thinking on your part.

Please go to Brazil or any other country and try to legally work there as a legal person without proper authorization ... report your findings if possible.

In a true free market, borders don't matter. Everyone is a consumer, everyone is a contributor. In many ways it is that way. But we still have restrictions. We provide subsidies to our farmers when it can be done cheaper elsewhere. We limit who can work in the US by immigration. We tariff certain imports and exports.

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Governments around the world are not equal, but the free market can empower then to demand more rights from their government than they get now. Making in essence all workers equal regardless of where they are.

You must believe in utopia.

When the rest of the would stops abusing workers... lets talk.

The US did at one time too, we got past that. Other countries can to.

great you feel this way. when they stop ... this problem goes away ... yes ?

What problem?

[mawilson 2,133]

[

Because they snuck across the border instead of doing it the legal way.

Gary - surely you mean "because they snuck across the border instead of staying in

their home countries."

There is no "legal" way for floor sweepers and veg pickers to come here - or visa

categories for these people - they are just not needed here.

I'm tired of people saying "ooh those bastards - doing it illegally instead of following due

process". Please understand that there is no due process for them. No visa category

and no way to come here except sneaking across the border.

"We welcome legal immigrants" is essentially the same as "we don't want any more

immigrants", because it's virtually impossible to immigrate to the U.S. legally without

a family connection.

Your absolutely correct. They are not needed here. That is why they should go home. I don't understand you reasoning here. Because they are not needed they don't have a legal way of getting here. So that somehow makes it OK for them to break the law? We are not the worlds employment agency. We need to take care of our own. Let the other countries take care of theirs.

I agree with you - that was not my reasoning at all.

I was just pointing out that saying "we welcome immigrants, just not the illegal ones"

seems a little dishonest, because the current immigration system provides very few

legal avenues for the admission of people who don't have family ties to the U.S.

The real message is "we don't want any more immigrants - we have enough already"

which is quite understandable.

[mawilson 2,133]

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Why on God's green earth would you want to do that? You live in the U.S., yet you're

willing to lower your living standards to benefit the poor in some third world country?

[Dan J 277]

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Why on God's green earth would you want to do that? You live in the U.S., yet you're

willing to lower your living standards to benefit the poor in some third world country?

In a free market, anyone can be a customer. Not just Americans.

[mawilson 2,133]

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Why on God's green earth would you want to do that? You live in the U.S., yet you're

willing to lower your living standards to benefit the poor in some third world country?

In a free market, anyone can be a customer. Not just Americans.

Why should I lower my living standards to accommodate a bunch of foreigners?

What does their "being a customer" buy me?

[Dan J 277]

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Why on God's green earth would you want to do that? You live in the U.S., yet you're

willing to lower your living standards to benefit the poor in some third world country?

In a free market, anyone can be a customer. Not just Americans.

Why should I lower my living standards to accommodate a bunch of foreigners?

What does their "being a customer" buy me?

I think thats simply answered with, what does a free market get you that other markets don't. Same market, bigger scale.

[Sheriff Uling 3]

As Gupt stated - they're an integral part of our economy, which would collapse if they disappeared.

Our economy did fine before they got here, it's doing well despite the enormous drain they represent in free schooling and health care and it will do just fine if they all left tomorrow. That is just some twisted logic that sounds scary to the uninformed to try and sway them to change their minds. It's called fear mongering.

Are there truly any substantial amount of illegals performing enough essential functions in society that would justify the means to the end? If so, may I jump the gate of your house, set-up camp, don't pay rent, and have access to your kitchen and bathroom. And of by the way, get hospitalized and schooled using the money out of your pocket while living rent free on your property. Look at this in a smaller window, and hopefully you may see the side that many other Americans fear and despise. Would you permit a homeless person to move into your backyard? No, more than likely, you would be calling the police. I am not writing that illegals are homeless (because obviously they are not), but I am trying to make the point of what is truly relevant and reasonable.

[mawilson 2,133]

I want free markets to be really free unless there is a significant security issue. That way everyone can benefit even the poor in many developing nations. You want free markets you be restricted to national borders, so you don't have to compete with other workers who may be willing to do your job for less than you do.

Why on God's green earth would you want to do that? You live in the U.S., yet you're

willing to lower your living standards to benefit the poor in some third world country?

In a free market, anyone can be a customer. Not just Americans.

Why should I lower my living standards to accommodate a bunch of foreigners?

What does their "being a customer" buy me?

I think thats simply answered with, what does a free market get you that other markets don't. Same market, bigger scale.

I'm of the opinion that quality matters more than quantity. I'd rather have 1,000 PhD's

making $200,000 each than 20,000 janitors making $10,000 each.