Giuliani cites Glasgow attack in call for immigration policy

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Answer this question, we will spend billions if we do enforcement alone, what do we get for those billions?

Control over our borders and immigration flow. We also stand to save billions in the process.

It's quite simple: I ain't falling for the propaganda that the profiteers of illegal migration put out - essentially that capitulation is the only answer. I also do not fall for the propaganda that the profiteers of our broken health care system put out to scare America away from nationalized health care which would be much preferable to what we currently have. Besides being much less expensive. But we're being told that this would result in Communism or the worst health care system imaginable. Neither is true. Same goes for this amnesty nonsense.

Seen Sicko, have you?

I actually haven't. Don't need to watch a movie to know what's wrong with the healthcare system here.

I live in this movie. As does any other American.

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

ET did a good job of showing the error in your judgment. Prove him wrong and give an illegal your SSN.

Yes if you read the following posts, I pretty much showed that as an argument against amnesty its pretty moot since amnesty and or enforcement will fix it.

Amnesty won't fix it. There'll be more of the same.

[Dan J 277]

Answer this question, we will spend billions if we do enforcement alone, what do we get for those billions?

Control over our borders and immigration flow. We also stand to save billions in the process.

It's quite simple: I ain't falling for the propaganda that the profiteers of illegal migration put out - essentially that capitulation is the only answer. I also do not fall for the propaganda that the profiteers of our broken health care system put out to scare America away from nationalized health care which would be much preferable to what we currently have. Besides being much less expensive. But we're being told that this would result in Communism or the worst health care system imaginable. Neither is true. Same goes for this amnesty nonsense.

Most of the costs will still exist, and continue to exist, even if we manage to get everyone out. But instead we add a lot more costs, trying to keep 2 million people from crossing the border.

Most of the cost in public services, we will still continue to pay they don't go away if the illegal immigrants do. We will still being paying for welfare medicate for the same percentage of the population. If thats going to change we need to do something about poverty and not illegal immigration.

So fiscally, I see a lot of costs, but I'm not really sure where we get these savings from.

Whether you like it or not, you are also a profiteer of illegal immigration. Everyone is. Illegal immigration doesn't affect one part of the economy, it affects the entire economy. You may not see that, but if your plan goes through, don't be surprised when the company you work for announces layoffs. Within months or a year or two afterwards. The effect wont be immediate, but it will come. Everything in the economy is very interdependent.

I don't see how we cant still do amnesty and still control our borders. Amnesty along wont work, reform along wont work, enforcement along wont work. The only way address all 3 areas at once. If we do it one at a time, it will make it much harder to any of the others. And we will still will have the same result, a messed up broken immigration system.

[Dan J 277]

Answer this question, we will spend billions if we do enforcement alone, what do we get for those billions?

Control over our borders and immigration flow. We also stand to save billions in the process.

It's quite simple: I ain't falling for the propaganda that the profiteers of illegal migration put out - essentially that capitulation is the only answer. I also do not fall for the propaganda that the profiteers of our broken health care system put out to scare America away from nationalized health care which would be much preferable to what we currently have. Besides being much less expensive. But we're being told that this would result in Communism or the worst health care system imaginable. Neither is true. Same goes for this amnesty nonsense.

Seen Sicko, have you?

I actually haven't. Don't need to watch a movie to know what's wrong with the healthcare system here.

I live in this movie. As does any other American.

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

ET did a good job of showing the error in your judgment. Prove him wrong and give an illegal your SSN.

Yes if you read the following posts, I pretty much showed that as an argument against amnesty its pretty moot since amnesty and or enforcement will fix it.

Amnesty won't fix it. There'll be more of the same.

Most people wont need resort to ID theft to get work. Not that many necessarily use it anyway. I still haven't see numbers on how many where an illegal immigrant uses someone else's number rather than a fake one. After amnesty and legalization anyone left, well, they get deported.

[GaryC 7]

Nice compassion there. A lot of people can't go to college or are not smart enough for college. But what the hell, give an illegal alien the job rather than an American.

Isn't the conservative argument for someone in poverty, go to school or find a job? I'm not saying this is right, but I'm trying to show you an argument from a point of view that you would likely more easily understand.

Yeah, and your doing it badly.

Really? Where do they create jobs? Please show me.

I know in your world, things work on Gary economics, but out here, its a lot different. But for you to understand how illegal immigration can create jobs in other sectors, its going to require the reasoning part of your brain for a bit.

12 million people here, are consumers in our economic system, It doesn't matter if they are here legally or not. Granted they in general they don't have a lot of buying power individually, since they don't make a lot, but collectively they still put back billions in the the US economy. They do so by buying food, services, products, paying rent. This creates growth in the companies that provide these products and services. Which in means they create more jobs and hire on more people. These companies are going to require more services from companies that provided business to business services, and they will in turn also make more money and hire on more people.

This argument would be different had we no illegal immigrants in this country, but instead, are economy has already grown to take into account these 12 million consumers. Removing them will cause a vacuum. Companies will downsize as 12 million people no longer will be buying their products, that means at least for some people, they will be out of a job.

We will have a situation similar to the dot com bubble bursting, with many skilled people looking for work. But not enough jobs to fill them. I guess there will always be demands at meat packing plants or in construction or farm labor.

So there I showed you, now its up to you to take the time to understand it, or you will simply ignore it because it weakens your postiton.

I will gladly take the hit. It will be offset from lower education and healthcare costs. Your argument just doesn't hold water. You are saying that we are dependant on the illegals for our economic well being? BS. They are much more of a drain than a help. Make them leave and prove me wrong.

Most (not all) that do pay income taxes are also comitting id theft.

So your more interested in the tax fraud committed by illegals and not corporations and wealthy citizens? Who does ID theft to get a job, harm?

ET did a good job of showing the error in your judgment. Prove him wrong and give an illegal your SSN.

Yes if you read the following posts, I pretty much showed that as an argument against amnesty its pretty moot since amnesty and or enforcement will fix it.

Yeah, cure the problem by legalizing the lawbreakers. That makes no sense at all. I for one am not that forgiving.

Continued on the next post. It will not let me post that many quotes.

[GaryC 7]

Hello!!! We will not always have 4.8% unemployment! Don't you believe that illegals can't get welfare either. If they have an anchor baby they can get it. They also get free schooling and free health care. That costs all of us big bux And your last comment, "go to school"? That speaks for itself. And people call me heartless!

Looking at more current data, in the last two quarters, unemployment, has stayed at 4.5 percent. If you take out teenagers who may have other reasons for not working, the unemployment rate is actually around 4% and its been that way for at least two quarters. But people have many reasons for not working, not a lack of jobs in the un-skilled labor market.

Peronsally I don't care if they get welfare or not, we would still be paying welfare with illegal aliens or not. Poverty is part of a free market system. It doesn't go away when they leave. So are you suggesting any poor person shouldn't get welfare?

Are you trying to show compassion? or trying to support a generally compassionate position because it makes your position stronger. Isn't the argument most conservatives give to people in poverty, is to get an education and find a job? I wonder how your position would change if this discussion would be about Poverty instead of Illegal immigration. Why does that argument change when we talk about illegals?

Nice try. When caught red handed you try to turn it around on me. I belive in a safety net but for our own citizens and LPR's. We are not the worlds welfair system. When they leave our public burden will go down and you have no answer to that.

Uh, yeah. I seem to remember someone saying that amnsety is right because it is fair. You guys need to get on the same page. But if that is your attitude then why are you here? Why didn't you buy your SO a ticket to Mexico and walk her across? Your attitude is pretty stupid.

Because I had a legal immigration option, and so do you. But many people don't, and you are not interest in making one. I'm not really sure what your point is. Other than you pointed out the flaw in our immigration system.

I never said that. I am 100% for a guest worker program. They just have to go home and do it right. By your thinking we should let everyone stay and that would encouage more to come. Right now we have 10-20 million illegals here. Your amnesty would allow them to stay and bring their families with them. That could balloon the "guest workers" to 60 million. You really think our economy can handle that? Do you think there are that many jobs for them? We tried amnesty 20 years ago. We legalized 2 million people and it was touted as the solution to the problem. Now we have 10 times that many illegals here and you want to do it again? Does that mean 20 years from now you will want to legalize 200 million? Think man!!

Illegals have driven DOWN crime? Please show me where you got that one from. The fact that they are poor is no excuse. If they were not here illegally then there wouldn't be a problem with illegals causing trouble.

That was posted on here, but you as I expected brushed at off as BS, two can play that game, you can show me your source and I can call it conservative FUD. But thats why I said it was in dispute, you can find research and sources that point both ways. And considering that many of these people fill low wage jobs, poverty is likely a much more relevant factor, and the issue would remain regardless of having illegal immigrants or not. So why this issue is framed specifically around illegal immigration I still don't know.

You didn't even come close to showing that the illegals reduce the crime rate. But since you are the ones that want them to stay the onis is on you to prove that it will go down, not on me. But that being said, on to your <cough> comments. You are saying the crime is because of poverty. Well what to you think the illegals will bring with them? They ain't doctors sneaking across!! They are no skill, no education workers. So even if they are legalized they will by your definition cause more crime!!! Why bring that on ourselves? If we make them go then by your definition the crime rate will go down! Sounds like you are making a really good case for them to leave!

In short I have just shown you the error in your judgment. Does that mean you will stop with your uninformed comments? I doubt it but we can always hope.

What do you think? I could say the same for you.

I have shown you to be wrong on all counts. Yet you doggedly hang onto your "progressive" line there. I won't use the word liberal because there are a lot of liberals that think this thing stinks as much as I do. This isn't a right vs left issue. It's a right vs wrong issue and you are on the wrong side of it.

[Dan J 277]

I will gladly take the hit. It will be offset from lower education and healthcare costs. Your argument just doesn't hold water. You are saying that we are dependant on the illegals for our economic well being? BS. They are much more of a drain than a help. Make them leave and prove me wrong.

Not quite, see poverty. Right now, illegal immigrants make up a large percentage of people in poverty. We take those people out, Americans are going to fill in that vacuum, and guess what, we still have those pesky healthcare and education costs. What will you blame it on next? That cost doesn't go away, even if we get rid of those here illegally.

That depends, do you consider our economy to be too big? We can remove them until it goes down to a more manageable size. We are dependent on them to maintain the economy as it is. We we can certainly go back down. I'm not sure you would really be one to say lets do that, if it means costing your job. Who knows, you may not take much of it, your co-workers could be the ones laid off.

[GaryC 7]

I will gladly take the hit. It will be offset from lower education and healthcare costs. Your argument just doesn't hold water. You are saying that we are dependant on the illegals for our economic well being? BS. They are much more of a drain than a help. Make them leave and prove me wrong.

Not quite, see poverty. Right now, illegal immigrants make up a large percentage of people in poverty. We take those people out, Americans are going to fill in that vacuum, and guess what, we still have those pesky healthcare and education costs. What will you blame it on next? That cost doesn't go away, even if we get rid of those here illegally.

That depends, do you consider our economy to be too big? We can remove them until it goes down to a more manageable size. We are dependent on them to maintain the economy as it is. We we can certainly go back down. I'm not sure you would really be one to say lets do that, if it means costing your job. Who knows, you may not take much of it, your co-workers could be the ones laid off.

:lol: :lol: @ Dan!!!!! Do you think before you post? You are saying if we take out 20 million poor people then that means we will produce 20 million new poor people to take their place? What do you think there is, a quota for poor people? The illegals are a drain on our society. Getting rid of them will do nothing but improve it. You just can't spin it any other way!! :lol: :lol:

[Dan J 277]

I never said that. I am 100% for a guest worker program. They just have to go home and do it right. By your thinking we should let everyone stay and that would encouage more to come. Right now we have 10-20 million illegals here. Your amnesty would allow them to stay and bring their families with them. That could balloon the "guest workers" to 60 million. You really think our economy can handle that? Do you think there are that many jobs for them? We tried amnesty 20 years ago. We legalized 2 million people and it was touted as the solution to the problem. Now we have 10 times that many illegals here and you want to do it again? Does that mean 20 years from now you will want to legalize 200 million? Think man!!

While I don't disagree with that point, there are other ways to solve that. Enforcement doesn't have to be the only way. I proposed a solution before in another thread, that would mostly account for the issue you brought up. You can solve that by changing the rules for citizenship (you need to be born to a USC parent), and there is nothing that says with amnesty you must give citizenship. Personally, I would be happy if all they could get was something like a green card, but not a green card. Which basically gives them the right to stay and work in this country, but they will never be able to attain citizenship (with the exception of say serving the military, or marrying a citizen), use most of the family immigration options or never be able to vote and hold certain types of jobs.

So your Anchor baby and daisy chain concerns? not a problem, that can easily be fixed.

[GaryC 7]

I never said that. I am 100% for a guest worker program. They just have to go home and do it right. By your thinking we should let everyone stay and that would encouage more to come. Right now we have 10-20 million illegals here. Your amnesty would allow them to stay and bring their families with them. That could balloon the "guest workers" to 60 million. You really think our economy can handle that? Do you think there are that many jobs for them? We tried amnesty 20 years ago. We legalized 2 million people and it was touted as the solution to the problem. Now we have 10 times that many illegals here and you want to do it again? Does that mean 20 years from now you will want to legalize 200 million? Think man!!

While I don't disagree with that point, there are other ways to solve that. Enforcement doesn't have to be the only way. I proposed a solution before in another thread, that would mostly account for the issue you brought up. You can solve that by changing the rules for citizenship (you need to be born to a USC parent), and there is nothing that says with amnesty you must give citizenship. Personally, I would be happy if all they could get was something like a green card, but not a green card. Which basically gives them the right to stay and work in this country, but they will never be able to attain citizenship (with the exception of say serving the military, or marrying a citizen), use most of the family immigration options or never be able to vote and hold certain types of jobs.

So your Anchor baby and daisy chain concerns? not a problem, that can easily be fixed.

As long as they go home first and wait in line then I will entertain any solution you may put forth. But they must go home first.

[Dan J 277]

I will gladly take the hit. It will be offset from lower education and healthcare costs. Your argument just doesn't hold water. You are saying that we are dependant on the illegals for our economic well being? BS. They are much more of a drain than a help. Make them leave and prove me wrong.

Not quite, see poverty. Right now, illegal immigrants make up a large percentage of people in poverty. We take those people out, Americans are going to fill in that vacuum, and guess what, we still have those pesky healthcare and education costs. What will you blame it on next? That cost doesn't go away, even if we get rid of those here illegally.

That depends, do you consider our economy to be too big? We can remove them until it goes down to a more manageable size. We are dependent on them to maintain the economy as it is. We we can certainly go back down. I'm not sure you would really be one to say lets do that, if it means costing your job. Who knows, you may not take much of it, your co-workers could be the ones laid off.

:lol: :lol: @ Dan!!!!! Do you think before you post? You are saying if we take out 20 million poor people then that means we will produce 20 million new poor people to take their place? What do you think there is, a quota for poor people? The illegals are a drain on our society. Getting rid of them will do nothing but improve it. You just can't spin it any other way!! :lol: :lol:

You don't understand. As long as we remain with a free market economy, there will always be poor people. If they are not illegal aliens, they will be citizens. Basically the concept is simple. To have winners, you have to have losers. If you remove the citizens, there will be more people that will be considered to be in poverty. Either the poverty level will increase due to inflation, or they will loose their higher skilled better paying job, only to be stuck in a job left over from the illegals leaving. There will be more Americans going into poverty. Saying otherwise shows that you don't understand simple economic concepts. This is not spin. This is just the way it is.

I never said that. I am 100% for a guest worker program. They just have to go home and do it right. By your thinking we should let everyone stay and that would encouage more to come. Right now we have 10-20 million illegals here. Your amnesty would allow them to stay and bring their families with them. That could balloon the "guest workers" to 60 million. You really think our economy can handle that? Do you think there are that many jobs for them? We tried amnesty 20 years ago. We legalized 2 million people and it was touted as the solution to the problem. Now we have 10 times that many illegals here and you want to do it again? Does that mean 20 years from now you will want to legalize 200 million? Think man!!

While I don't disagree with that point, there are other ways to solve that. Enforcement doesn't have to be the only way. I proposed a solution before in another thread, that would mostly account for the issue you brought up. You can solve that by changing the rules for citizenship (you need to be born to a USC parent), and there is nothing that says with amnesty you must give citizenship. Personally, I would be happy if all they could get was something like a green card, but not a green card. Which basically gives them the right to stay and work in this country, but they will never be able to attain citizenship (with the exception of say serving the military, or marrying a citizen), use most of the family immigration options or never be able to vote and hold certain types of jobs.

So your Anchor baby and daisy chain concerns? not a problem, that can easily be fixed.

As long as they go home first and wait in line then I will entertain any solution you may put forth. But they must go home first.

But then you run into a catch 22, If you make it too difficult to go legal, why bother? While I can see forcing those to go home that have been here for maybe a year or two, If we are going to make a difference, the incentive needs to remain.

[Ban Hammer 14,609]

Not quite, see poverty. Right now, illegal immigrants make up a large percentage of people in poverty. We take those people out, Americans are going to fill in that vacuum, and guess what, we still have those pesky healthcare and education costs. What will you blame it on next? That cost doesn't go away, even if we get rid of those here illegally.

i wasn't aware that america had quotas on poverty. care to cite a source that draws the same conclusion you posted above?

[Dan J 277]

Not quite, see poverty. Right now, illegal immigrants make up a large percentage of people in poverty. We take those people out, Americans are going to fill in that vacuum, and guess what, we still have those pesky healthcare and education costs. What will you blame it on next? That cost doesn't go away, even if we get rid of those here illegally.

i wasn't aware that america had quotas on poverty. care to cite a source that draws the same conclusion you posted above?

We don't, its called free market economics.

Not quite, see poverty. Right now, illegal immigrants make up a large percentage of people in poverty. We take those people out, Americans are going to fill in that vacuum, and guess what, we still have those pesky healthcare and education costs. What will you blame it on next? That cost doesn't go away, even if we get rid of those here illegally.

i wasn't aware that america had quotas on poverty. care to cite a source that draws the same conclusion you posted above?

We don't, its called free market economics. Unless you are suggesting anther system, poverty will remain a part of it.

[Ban Hammer 14,609]

You don't understand. As long as we remain with a free market economy, there will always be poor people. If they are not illegal aliens, they will be citizens. Basically the concept is simple. To have winners, you have to have losers. If you remove the citizens, there will be more people that will be considered to be in poverty. Either the poverty level will increase due to inflation, or they will loose their higher skilled better paying job, only to be stuck in a job left over from the illegals leaving. There will be more Americans going into poverty. Saying otherwise shows that you don't understand simple economic concepts. This is not spin. This is just the way it is.

this right here in bold busts your pro-amnesty arguement! the overall pool of citizens will be watered down by the fence jumpers and it's poverty for the majority.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Most of the costs will still exist, and continue to exist, even if we manage to get everyone out.

The illegal crowd is said to have a net fiscal impact (cost) of $10,000,000,000.00 per annum.

If they weren't here, how would that cost still exist?

[GaryC 7]

You don't understand. As long as we remain with a free market economy, there will always be poor people. If they are not illegal aliens, they will be citizens. Basically the concept is simple. To have winners, you have to have losers. If you remove the citizens, there will be more people that will be considered to be in poverty. Either the poverty level will increase due to inflation, or they will loose their higher skilled better paying job, only to be stuck in a job left over from the illegals leaving. There will be more Americans going into poverty. Saying otherwise shows that you don't understand simple economic concepts. This is not spin. This is just the way it is.

No, it's you that obviously does not understand. You take away the 20 million drains on our economy and you will not suddenly condem 20 million people that were doing well to poverty. You raise the bottom. The entire curve moves up and that benefits everyone. Our economy isn't a zero sum gain. That is why people want to come here in the first place. Our curve is set higher than most of the worlds. That is why even the poorest among us has it better than the average in the third world. Now your just making things up and hoping we swallow it. Sorry, not working here.