Senate resuscitates immigration bill

[GaryC 7]

I'm sorry to fixate here, but I'm appalled that anyone can go around trumpeting about law-breaking who admits to having committed a serious crime that has killed so many people and does not seem to feel bad. It seems like your morals are based on not only what is legal but what is currently en vogue to be enforced. Your moral system does not extend beyond the laws of the US, does it?

With all due respect you have no idea what my moral system is. Even though it is none of your damn business I will tell you that I gave up drinking 25 years ago. I am not proud of the mistakes I made in my youth and they have not been repeated. I grew up. Seems that some here haven't.

But do you think you should be legally held to account for stuff you did 25 years ago?

That isn't the question and we are not going to take that detour. I have shown that most of them break laws every day while they are here. Instead of discussing that some here resort to personal attacks. I find that interesting.

So in case you missed my question to Steven I will ask it again.

Do you deny that working without EAD is a crime? Do you deny that evading federal and state income taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading Medicare taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading SS taxes is a crime? Do you deny that using a fake SSN is a crime? Do you deny that using a stolen SSN is a crime?

If you admit these are crimes then by your own words they should be prosicted. If you don't think they are crimes I invite you to ask the IRS about it.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So if you are an Undocumented American you can avoid deportation by pointing out that the statute of limitations has run out on your initial offence?

An interesting concept.

Not one that I have heard of being argued before.

I'm not using it as a direct argument per se. But these stubborn ideologues keep bringing up the issue of legality and crime as if, one, they have a reasonable, legal understanding of law, and two, as if crime and punishment is an open and shut case.

I'm sorry Steven. I didn't know you were a lawyer.

Do you deny that working without EAD is a crime? Do you deny that evading federal and state income taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading Medicare taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading SS taxes is a crime? Do you deny that using a fake SSN is a crime? Do you deny that using a stolen SSN is a crime?

From your "expert" legal standing as a lawyer do you think that these things do or do not constitute a continuing crime?

Gary, you're no lawyer so stop interpreting the law as if it as an open and shut case. Our laws have NEVER worked that way. I wish you could see that your hardline, black and white approach never works in a court of law.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

9/11 5 of the terrorist involved in the WTC Bombings entered ILLEGALLY through Souther Border,

These Illegal Criminals Jepordize and compromise USA's Safety, security & Future.

These Illegal Criminals Lower Education standard, property value

ANd cost the Tax payers Billions/ year taking from a system they put nothing into.

Hospital;s are being forced to shut down, middle class legal Residents & Citizens are suffering due to these Illegal Criminals flooding hospitals & Schools.

It has to stop, American Citzens & legal resident have spoken Majority Of American Agree enforcement and NO AMNESTY

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm sorry to fixate here, but I'm appalled that anyone can go around trumpeting about law-breaking who admits to having committed a serious crime that has killed so many people and does not seem to feel bad. It seems like your morals are based on not only what is legal but what is currently en vogue to be enforced. Your moral system does not extend beyond the laws of the US, does it?

With all due respect you have no idea what my moral system is. Even though it is none of your damn business I will tell you that I gave up drinking 25 years ago. I am not proud of the mistakes I made in my youth and they have not been repeated. I grew up. Seems that some here haven't.

But do you think you should be legally held to account for stuff you did 25 years ago?

That isn't the question and we are not going to take that detour. I have shown that most of them break laws every day while they are here. Instead of discussing that some here resort to personal attacks. I find that interesting.

So in case you missed my question to Steven I will ask it again.

Do you deny that working without EAD is a crime? Do you deny that evading federal and state income taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading Medicare taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading SS taxes is a crime? Do you deny that using a fake SSN is a crime? Do you deny that using a stolen SSN is a crime?

If you admit these are crimes then by your own words they should be prosicted. If you don't think they are crimes I invite you to ask the IRS about it.

They're not the 'same' crime though. You're an illegal immigrant once - unless you leave and come back the same way. Anything else you do is secondary, and therefore separate. BTW - not all illegals do those secondary things, and its been pointed out before that you can pay taxes without an SSN.

[mawilson 2,133]

But do you think you should be legally held to account for stuff you did 25 years ago?

I have a better analogy.

Let's say you steal someone's birth certificate (even a dead person's) and assume their identity.

25 years later, all birth and death records are computerised and your crime is found out.

Should you be allowed to keep the dead person's identity?

Let's say, for argument's sake, that stealing that birth certificate was your only crime, and

you've been an upstanding citizen for 25 years.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I've highlighted important points that seem to be overlooked...

By Mae M. Ngai

...

Before 1891 there were no provisions in our immigration laws to deport an immigrant who entered without permission. (Indeed, hardly any requirements for admission existed.) Thereafter, Congress enacted statutes of limitations of one to five years for deportable offenses. This policy recognized an important reality about illegal immigrants: They settle, raise families and acquire property -- in other words, they become part of the nation's economic and social fabric. In the first decades of the 20th century, it was considered unconscionable to expel such people. Judge Learned Hand of New York said that deportation, especially when it tore people from their homes and families, was "barbarous and cruel."

After World War I a conservative Congress imposed both quantitative (numerical ceilings) and qualitative (national origin and racial) restrictions on immigration, ending the storied era of open immigration from Europe. And in a fit of hyper-nationalist vengeance it also eliminated the statute of limitations on unlawful entry.

We have long since repudiated the national origins quota system as a racist policy. But we have remained committed to numerical restrictions and to expelling undocumented immigrants, regardless of their length of stay, the contributions they make and the social ties that they establish. The few reforms that were made over the years, which allowed for suspending deportation in hardship cases or according to a balance of equities, were virtually eliminated by Congress in 1996.

Critics oppose legalizing undocumented immigrants on the grounds that it rewards bad behavior. This concern is, again, at the center of debate over the Kennedy-McCain bill. Yet, we should consider that nearly all offenses, civil and criminal, carry statutes of limitations. Time limits provide an incentive for plaintiffs to bring suit promptly. It is not the best use of the government's resources to pursue old cases in which the evidence is stale or difficult to obtain. The benefits of prosecution often diminish with time, as the offender has often reformed. Limiting the time of possible prosecution also thwarts the potential for blackmail by a third party that knows of the offense. (This is essentially how employers abuse undocumented workers.) Finally, the passage of time brings with it the need for closure. The U.S. Supreme Court recently explained: "The statute of limitations establishes a deadline after which the defendant may legitimately have peace of mind." Only the most serious crimes, such as kidnapping and murder, carry no statutes of limitations.

A statute of limitations on unlawful entry is therefore not anachronistic but consistent with basic legal and moral principles. It does not condone or reward illegal immigration: Unauthorized presence would remain a violation of the law and continue to carry the risk of apprehension and removal, at least for some period of time. But it would allow us to recognize that the undocumented become, for better or worse, members of the community, and to accept them as such.

Restoring the statute of limitations would not solve our immigration problems. But it would go a long way toward stemming the accretion of a caste population that is easily exploitable and lives forever outside the polity.

The writer teaches history at the University of Chicago. She is the author of "Impossible Subjects: Illegal Aliens and the Making of Modern America."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5061301460.html

[GaryC 7]

So if you are an Undocumented American you can avoid deportation by pointing out that the statute of limitations has run out on your initial offence?

An interesting concept.

Not one that I have heard of being argued before.

I'm not using it as a direct argument per se. But these stubborn ideologues keep bringing up the issue of legality and crime as if, one, they have a reasonable, legal understanding of law, and two, as if crime and punishment is an open and shut case.

I'm sorry Steven. I didn't know you were a lawyer.

Do you deny that working without EAD is a crime? Do you deny that evading federal and state income taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading Medicare taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading SS taxes is a crime? Do you deny that using a fake SSN is a crime? Do you deny that using a stolen SSN is a crime?

From your "expert" legal standing as a lawyer do you think that these things do or do not constitute a continuing crime?

Gary, you're no lawyer so stop interpreting the law as if it as an open and shut case. Our laws have NEVER worked that way. I wish you could see that your hardline, black and white approach never works in a court of law.

You still didn't answer my question. Do you think these things are a crime? If you do then why do you want to give amnesty to someone that daily is breaking the law?

Your ignoring all the things they do once they are here and just focusing on the single act of waiding across the RioGrand.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Iniibig ko si Luz forever

[Dan J 277]

I'm sorry to fixate here, but I'm appalled that anyone can go around trumpeting about law-breaking who admits to having committed a serious crime that has killed so many people and does not seem to feel bad. It seems like your morals are based on not only what is legal but what is currently en vogue to be enforced. Your moral system does not extend beyond the laws of the US, does it?

With all due respect you have no idea what my moral system is. Even though it is none of your damn business I will tell you that I gave up drinking 25 years ago. I am not proud of the mistakes I made in my youth and they have not been repeated. I grew up. Seems that some here haven't.

But do you think you should be legally held to account for stuff you did 25 years ago?

If you continue every day to:

§ 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who

(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or

(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...25----000-.html

To be here legally you need to be inspected. Eluding that inspection is a crime. For every day you are not inspected you are eluding it. That is a crime every day.

It's a continuation of the same crime ... each day for 25 years.

Not quite, you enter illegally once. You only can commit that crime once (unless you enter more than once). Inspection in this case refers only to entering illegally through a PoE.

Staying falls into different parts of the code, like overstay or working without proper authorization.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Dan + Gemvita

[mawilson 2,133]

I've highlighted important points that seem to be overlooked...

Steven - do you have an opinion of your own? Why do you keep posting ####### written by other people?

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

I'm sorry to fixate here, but I'm appalled that anyone can go around trumpeting about law-breaking who admits to having committed a serious crime that has killed so many people and does not seem to feel bad. It seems like your morals are based on not only what is legal but what is currently en vogue to be enforced. Your moral system does not extend beyond the laws of the US, does it?

With all due respect you have no idea what my moral system is. Even though it is none of your damn business I will tell you that I gave up drinking 25 years ago. I am not proud of the mistakes I made in my youth and they have not been repeated. I grew up. Seems that some here haven't.

But do you think you should be legally held to account for stuff you did 25 years ago?

That isn't the question and we are not going to take that detour. I have shown that most of them break laws every day while they are here. Instead of discussing that some here resort to personal attacks. I find that interesting.

So in case you missed my question to Steven I will ask it again.

Do you deny that working without EAD is a crime? Do you deny that evading federal and state income taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading Medicare taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading SS taxes is a crime? Do you deny that using a fake SSN is a crime? Do you deny that using a stolen SSN is a crime?

If you admit these are crimes then by your own words they should be prosicted. If you don't think they are crimes I invite you to ask the IRS about it.

Exactly these crimes if commited by You or I , we would be prosecuted & put in prison, if we were caught driving w/out a license we would go to jail, if caught evading taxes for years we would face federal prosecution.

Just because these Illegals Are "undocumented" doesn't mean we should turn our heads and act as if their crimes are not being commited. Their 1st act on USA soil was that of Criminal intent, their day to day lives are lived by breaking state and federal laws. This ####### about arresting them , then releasing them to later stand trial is BS, Arrest straight to Deportation. More raids/ Round ups, and bring Americas Economy, safety, security & Freedom. Provide a pathway to those who are already going through the proces legally, DON'T AWARD Federal Criminals while punishing those who obey the law.

[GaryC 7]

I'm sorry to fixate here, but I'm appalled that anyone can go around trumpeting about law-breaking who admits to having committed a serious crime that has killed so many people and does not seem to feel bad. It seems like your morals are based on not only what is legal but what is currently en vogue to be enforced. Your moral system does not extend beyond the laws of the US, does it?

With all due respect you have no idea what my moral system is. Even though it is none of your damn business I will tell you that I gave up drinking 25 years ago. I am not proud of the mistakes I made in my youth and they have not been repeated. I grew up. Seems that some here haven't.

But do you think you should be legally held to account for stuff you did 25 years ago?

That isn't the question and we are not going to take that detour. I have shown that most of them break laws every day while they are here. Instead of discussing that some here resort to personal attacks. I find that interesting.

So in case you missed my question to Steven I will ask it again.

Do you deny that working without EAD is a crime? Do you deny that evading federal and state income taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading Medicare taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading SS taxes is a crime? Do you deny that using a fake SSN is a crime? Do you deny that using a stolen SSN is a crime?

If you admit these are crimes then by your own words they should be prosicted. If you don't think they are crimes I invite you to ask the IRS about it.

They're not the 'same' crime though. You're an illegal immigrant once - unless you leave and come back the same way. Anything else you do is secondary, and therefore separate. BTW - not all illegals do those secondary things, and its been pointed out before that you can pay taxes without an SSN.

lets try it again.

§ 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who

(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or

(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...25----000-.html

Every day that goes by is a continuation of breaking that part of the law. It isn't a one time thing. Even without that working without EAD is also a crime that they commit every day they go to work.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

But do you think you should be legally held to account for stuff you did 25 years ago?

I have a better analogy.

Let's say you steal someone's birth certificate (even a dead person's) and assume their identity.

25 years later, all birth and death records are computerised and your crime is found out.

Should you be allowed to keep the dead person's identity?

Let's say, for argument's sake, that stealing that birth certificate was your only crime, and

you've been an upstanding citizen for 25 years.

Wasn't making an analogy - but rather asking a direct question.

In answer to your analogy - probably not. But in that sense noone cares overmuch about 1 solitary individual. 11 million people have more of a compelling case IMO - purely by virtue of numbers.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Not quite, you enter illegally once. You only can commit that crime once (unless you enter more than once). Inspection in this case refers only to entering illegally through a PoE.

Staying falls into different parts of the code, like overstay or working without proper authorization.

Well if all they did was simply entered illegally once and just roamed the country doing nothing else then it would be a different story, but they do more then simply Violate Federal Immigration Laws,

They Work Illegally EVERY DAY, DEFRAUD THE IRS EVERY DAY, DRIVE ILLEGALLY EVERY DAY.

TAKE FROM HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION SYSTEMS EVERYDAY.

Drive drunk, steal, ID theft, murder, violent crime.

So it is more than just simple trespassing or illegally entering "One time"

[Alex+R 0]

Gary, what's your point? We all know it's illegal to enter without inspection. If that is as far as you are willing to think or ponder this question, then you probably shouldn't argue so vehemently and let other people who are willing to think this out have their say.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I'm sorry to fixate here, but I'm appalled that anyone can go around trumpeting about law-breaking who admits to having committed a serious crime that has killed so many people and does not seem to feel bad. It seems like your morals are based on not only what is legal but what is currently en vogue to be enforced. Your moral system does not extend beyond the laws of the US, does it?

With all due respect you have no idea what my moral system is. Even though it is none of your damn business I will tell you that I gave up drinking 25 years ago. I am not proud of the mistakes I made in my youth and they have not been repeated. I grew up. Seems that some here haven't.

But do you think you should be legally held to account for stuff you did 25 years ago?

That isn't the question and we are not going to take that detour. I have shown that most of them break laws every day while they are here. Instead of discussing that some here resort to personal attacks. I find that interesting.

So in case you missed my question to Steven I will ask it again.

Do you deny that working without EAD is a crime? Do you deny that evading federal and state income taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading Medicare taxes is a crime? Do you deny that evading SS taxes is a crime? Do you deny that using a fake SSN is a crime? Do you deny that using a stolen SSN is a crime?

If you admit these are crimes then by your own words they should be prosicted. If you don't think they are crimes I invite you to ask the IRS about it.

They're not the 'same' crime though. You're an illegal immigrant once - unless you leave and come back the same way. Anything else you do is secondary, and therefore separate. BTW - not all illegals do those secondary things, and its been pointed out before that you can pay taxes without an SSN.

lets try it again.

§ 1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who

(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or

(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or

(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...25----000-.html

Every day that goes by is a continuation of breaking that part of the law. It isn't a one time thing. Even without that working without EAD is also a crime that they commit every day they go to work.

I'm sure if you look harder you can find some specific caveats to that particular clause which don't rely on your subjective interpretation. The obvious question I would ask is where, exactly, are you likely to meet "immigration officers"?