Mexicans fear U.S. immigration plan

[Fandango 1,439]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language..

Speaking for myself, I'm often annoyed when I go down to Miami and some of the street signs are in Spanish, but not English. God forbid a non-Spanish speaker gets lost down there! They're focked.

I have no problem with a family passing down their language...I wish my great-grandparents had, but they didn't. Back in the day, languages weren't passed down as easily because there was an overwhelming pride that their children were Americans, therefore the kids were pushed to embrace all things America so they can 'assimilate'...also so they could talk smack in front of the kids without them knowin, lol. But I think they were wrong too...one could be proud of both nationalities.

I also am a firm believer in Americans being bi-lingual. Most other nationalities are. We should get out of our bubble and be more well rounded.

HOWEVER: I think the resentment comes from being 'forced' into Spanish because it seems to be an overwhelming necessity...the annoyance that in America, there can be street signs in Spanish but not English....and tbh, prolly a bit of resentment that many Spanish speaking foreign nationals/USCs are not showing a willingness to assimilate or even a desire to embrace America by learning the English language....and instead, putting the burden on the English-speaker to learn Spanish.

Years ago there was a bill in FL to remove English as the official language of FL. You can imagine the outrage...and imo, rightfully so.

[Captain Oates 910]

How would you feel if your husband ends up being some of the next ones to go in favor of H-1B'S?

I take it you are not H-1B positive ?

alan

[LaGreenEyes 0]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language..

I totally agree with you. I learned Spanish a long time ago, basically because I felt like it. I was 13 years old and wanted to know what the words to the Menudo songs meant. Kind of seems trivial, but I was actually good at it, and now I am completely fluent. I have gotten many job promotions and I know part of it is because my bilingual skills made me a much more competetive candidate. I met my husband because of it. DONT BE JEALOUS BECAUSE YOU WERENT SMART ENOUGH TO LEARN 2 LANGUAGES FOLKS!! Be it Spanish, French, Chinese, Tagalog..whatever. The assumption that everyone should learn English in a day is stupid. How many of you all married people who didn't have English as their first language? Maybe they learned English in school or at work. Imagine if in their countries they were not encouraged or given the chance to learn English. Would you have been able to meet and communicate with them?......................just a thought, if English was on the OTHER foot......

[GuapaDoktora 0]

Or what!!! PETER!!!! I told you that I don't give a dahamn about your name... so drop it... let's make a debate about something else...

Oh my god. Calm the F*** down and give the man the respect he deserves and call him his name, which is his American name, by the way. Everyone let you call yourself Sherriff Uling.

Yeah, I agree. Uling in English is charcoal - Sheriff Charcoal doesn't have the same ring to it.

[LaGreenEyes 0]

How would you feel if your husband ends up being some of the next ones to go in favor of H-1B'S?

I take it you are not H-1B positive ?

alan

No, it's not that I am not against H-1B as an institution, but it seems that many citizens and legal residents are being denied jobs in favor of these visa holders. In the universities less Americans are going into tech because they hear that they cannot get jobs. In this country there IS a lack of doctors per capita, teachers per capita, and probably some other industries that I do not know of. The numbers should be based on the lack of workers with the skills and then be drawn from that. I never heard of unemployed doctors or teachers (unless they did something bad, of course). It just seems silly that there is such a ruckus over people who want to pick tobacco and clean floors ( Who's lining up for those jobs that you know of?) and not one peep over the jobs that Americans and residents have to compete with foreigners for in our own country.

[Fandango 1,439]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language..

I totally agree with you. I learned Spanish a long time ago, basically because I felt like it. I was 13 years old and wanted to know what the words to the Menudo songs meant. Kind of seems trivial, but I was actually good at it, and now I am completely fluent. I have gotten many job promotions and I know part of it is because my bilingual skills made me a much more competetive candidate. I met my husband because of it. DONT BE JEALOUS BECAUSE YOU WERENT SMART ENOUGH TO LEARN 2 LANGUAGES FOLKS!! Be it Spanish, French, Chinese, Tagalog..whatever. The assumption that everyone should learn English in a day is stupid. How many of you all married people who didn't have English as their first language? Maybe they learned English in school or at work. Imagine if in their countries they were not encouraged or given the chance to learn English. Would you have been able to meet and communicate with them?......................just a thought, if English was on the OTHER foot......

I agreed with you until you got to the caps...cos childish smack talk gets you nowhere in an adult conversation...

and 'lolz' to saywhat on the H-1B pos comment.

[LaGreenEyes 0]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language..

I totally agree with you. I learned Spanish a long time ago, basically because I felt like it. I was 13 years old and wanted to know what the words to the Menudo songs meant. Kind of seems trivial, but I was actually good at it, and now I am completely fluent. I have gotten many job promotions and I know part of it is because my bilingual skills made me a much more competetive candidate. I met my husband because of it. DONT BE JEALOUS BECAUSE YOU WERENT SMART ENOUGH TO LEARN 2 LANGUAGES FOLKS!! Be it Spanish, French, Chinese, Tagalog..whatever. The assumption that everyone should learn English in a day is stupid. How many of you all married people who didn't have English as their first language? Maybe they learned English in school or at work. Imagine if in their countries they were not encouraged or given the chance to learn English. Would you have been able to meet and communicate with them?......................just a thought, if English was on the OTHER foot......

I agreed with you until you got to the caps...cos childish smack talk gets you nowhere in an adult conversation...

and 'lolz' to saywhat on the H-1B pos comment.

Sorry about that...its SUCH a redundant subject with me...and I get soooo irritated, and finally I'm like, well they're just jealous!

[Alex+R 0]

You must have failed 8th grade math, La Green Eyes.

By the way, my husband is in IT, and had no problem finding a job. He used the same methods an American would use, as he is legally here, and found many available positions. We do not live in an IT-rich city.

I'm only quoting what I saw on a website, and many other links, and things that I also have seen letters and editorials on from time to time in the Dallas Morning News, NY Times, Newsweek and other publications. I never really paid much attention to it, until I saw a story online, which led me to the DICE.com website. I happen to like to read. So, contrary to what you think I am not an idiot. So, are you illiterate because I guess you can't read my post and understand it?

http://numbersusa.com/interests/hightech.html

The link to the full story and here's a tidbit.

From the San Francisco Chronicle.....

The legal cap on H-1B visas dropped from 195,000 back to its original level of 65,000 on October 1, 2003. Almost immediately, certain Members of Congress began looking for ways to increase this level, despite the fact that the number of available jobs is decreasing and unemployment among American workers is increasing. The Wall Street Journal announced the same month, for example, that Senator Hatch was working with employers like INTEL and the Indian Government to increase the H-1B cap.

Some 14 million Americans and legal workers currently cannot find full-time jobs in the United States. More than 100,000 American programmers are unemployed. When those who are underemployed or working in other jobs because they cannot find programming jobs, the total grows to about half a million. At the same time, more than 450,000 H-1B workers are employed as programmers in the United States. U.S. employers are cutting jobs at the same time they are importing H-1B workers to fill the remaining jobs.

How would you feel if your husband ends up being some of the next ones to go in favor of H-1B'S?

,

Yes, programmer unemployment was a big problem... in 2002/3, after the dotcom burst. In the last four years, programmers' job prospects have improved significantly to the same unemployment rate of the IT average (although it does not appear to be a growing field here). I don't think reading an outdated editorial off an anti-H1B visa website really counts as doing your research.

Our nation is proud to have the best and the brightest working for us. A programmer who graduates from DeVry might not have the same capabilities as an MIT programmer (not that it couldn't be the other way around, too). Maybe people who aren't any good at their jobs should be the ones worried about losing them. The truth is that the number of CS graduates has been steadily declining in this country in this decade, and the field is actually bigger now than back in the dotcom era. Maybe we need H1B workers to fill the holes GOOD American programmers can't fill.

[homesick_american 1]

Actually, more Americans are losing their jobs in the engineering, biotech, computer, research industries because of the tens of thousands of H-1B Indian and Chinese workers "imported" here every year.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the year 2001, 9 out of every 10 new job openings for computer/IT were taken by H-1Bs, and despite record unemployment the INS issued 312,000 visas in 2002.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the year 2003 the total number of H-1B visas for high-tech workers issued was greater than the total number of high-tech jobs eliminated. Negative job growth in Computer/IT for U.S. citizens and residents can be directly correlated with the huge influx of H-1B visa holders. If it wasn't for H-1B the unemployment rate for Computer/IT workers would be 0%.

I got this data from a link on DICE.com discussion forums. There are horror stories about US citizens and green card holders losing jobs and being turned down for jobs only to give them to the H visa holders from India. Last year alone one outsourcing recruitment agency in India applied for 22K H visas IN ONE DAY. Even people of Indian descent in the USA are losing their jobs because of this policy. But, the MYTH of "there aren't enough skilled workers in the USA" remains.

The priority SHOULD be given to the laborers that are going to fill the glut of those jobs that they have been doing for years anyways, and leave the degreed professional jobs to the citizens and residents that are already here. The tobacco guy is right. If a door is going to be opened, which I was always in favor of some kind of policy being developed, it should help those very people that are needing it most, (laborers) and not at the expense of the legal residents and citizens.

This isn't 2002, though. This is 2007, and the recession is over. They didn't give out 300,000+ H1B visas this year. They gave out 65,000. According to the department of labor, IT will be one of the fastest-growing sectors in the country employment-wise, and a lot of tech companies in the south are hiring. I know people in Texas right now desperate for tech workers, and there aren't any visas for them to apply for now...so they have to give the jobs to people who don't really know what the hell they're doing.

Some areas of tech are dead or no-gos, like support and some really low-level jobs that 10 years ago were well-paid. That ####### has been outsourced. People higher up with experience should not have much trouble finding work; I don't know anyone in TX who is having any trouble in that respect.

I do agree that the H1-B program is being abused by Indian outsourcing companies, but India can't even produce enough skilled workers to fill their own requirements because a lot of programs in India aren't actually worth a squirt of piss. The company I just left hired six "top" Indian graduates recently to fill some DBA positions. They didn't even know the difference between an inner and an outer join. PATHETIC. They can't do what I do; they just don't have the skills. I haven't met an actual outsource worker who knew even a quarter of what I know, and a lot of companies are starting to notice.

Personally, I'm most likely going to leave the IT field because even though I'm high up enough to not really have to worry too much about being outsourced, it's still a concern. However, it's a concern for pretty much every job except jobs where your physical presence is absolutely positively required. Paralegals, accountants, and other back-office personnel are also being outsourced now. It's not just the IT workers and medical transcriptionists, you know. We're pretty much all in the same boat, but mass migration to the US will only make it worse.

I'm not even in favor of a program for migrant workers. That's basically us saying 'Yeah, we're OK with people being paid sh!t wages and no benefits so we can have cheaper fruit and vegetables just as long as they're not ILLEGAL because they're sending the money home to their families and their lives will be better.' To me that's pure exploitation, and it's only a step above telling them to eat cake if they're out of bread. It's #######.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language...

I think it's the fact that Spanish is pushed on America. Other languages one learns by choice. That's the big difference.

[homesick_american 1]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language..

I totally agree with you. I learned Spanish a long time ago, basically because I felt like it. I was 13 years old and wanted to know what the words to the Menudo songs meant. Kind of seems trivial, but I was actually good at it, and now I am completely fluent. I have gotten many job promotions and I know part of it is because my bilingual skills made me a much more competetive candidate. I met my husband because of it. DONT BE JEALOUS BECAUSE YOU WERENT SMART ENOUGH TO LEARN 2 LANGUAGES FOLKS!! Be it Spanish, French, Chinese, Tagalog..whatever. The assumption that everyone should learn English in a day is stupid. How many of you all married people who didn't have English as their first language? Maybe they learned English in school or at work. Imagine if in their countries they were not encouraged or given the chance to learn English. Would you have been able to meet and communicate with them?......................just a thought, if English was on the OTHER foot......

I speak four languages, so I'm not jealous at all.

I think the immigrants should be required to learn English within a reasonable period of time. The younger they are, the easier it is. If I can learn four, surely they can learn two.

[Alex+R 0]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language...

I think it's the fact that Spanish is pushed on America. Other languages one learns by choice. That's the big difference.

I think this "pushed on us" or "shoved in our faces" stuff doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, sure, signs should be posted in English if they're in Spanish--two languages is fine--but I don't see anywhere else that it's being forced on us. And anyone who has lived in this country in the past 20 years is likely to have picked up basic Spanish phrases and directions. I can not imagine seeing a sign in Spanish and not knowing what it said, at least basically, even before I learned some Portuguese. And note, I live in Minnesota, where there are certainly MANY Spanish speakers, but there isn't an area where the signs are only in Spanish.

[Fandango 1,439]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language...

I think it's the fact that Spanish is pushed on America. Other languages one learns by choice. That's the big difference.

I think this "pushed on us" or "shoved in our faces" stuff doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, sure, signs should be posted in English if they're in Spanish--two languages is fine--but I don't see anywhere else that it's being forced on us. And anyone who has lived in this country in the past 20 years is likely to have picked up basic Spanish phrases and directions. I can not imagine seeing a sign in Spanish and not knowing what it said, at least basically, even before I learned some Portuguese. And note, I live in Minnesota, where there are certainly MANY Spanish speakers, but there isn't an area where the signs are only in Spanish.

See my comment above about Miami street signs in Spanish & an actual vote to remove English as the official lang of FL back in the 80s...

[LaGreenEyes 0]

You must have failed 8th grade math, La Green Eyes.

By the way, my husband is in IT, and had no problem finding a job. He used the same methods an American would use, as he is legally here, and found many available positions. We do not live in an IT-rich city.

I'm only quoting what I saw on a website, and many other links, and things that I also have seen letters and editorials on from time to time in the Dallas Morning News, NY Times, Newsweek and other publications. I never really paid much attention to it, until I saw a story online, which led me to the DICE.com website. I happen to like to read. So, contrary to what you think I am not an idiot. So, are you illiterate because I guess you can't read my post and understand it?

http://numbersusa.com/interests/hightech.html

The link to the full story and here's a tidbit.

From the San Francisco Chronicle.....

The legal cap on H-1B visas dropped from 195,000 back to its original level of 65,000 on October 1, 2003. Almost immediately, certain Members of Congress began looking for ways to increase this level, despite the fact that the number of available jobs is decreasing and unemployment among American workers is increasing. The Wall Street Journal announced the same month, for example, that Senator Hatch was working with employers like INTEL and the Indian Government to increase the H-1B cap.

Some 14 million Americans and legal workers currently cannot find full-time jobs in the United States. More than 100,000 American programmers are unemployed. When those who are underemployed or working in other jobs because they cannot find programming jobs, the total grows to about half a million. At the same time, more than 450,000 H-1B workers are employed as programmers in the United States. U.S. employers are cutting jobs at the same time they are importing H-1B workers to fill the remaining jobs.

How would you feel if your husband ends up being some of the next ones to go in favor of H-1B'S?

,

Yes, programmer unemployment was a big problem... in 2002/3, after the dotcom burst. In the last four years, programmers' job prospects have improved significantly to the same unemployment rate of the IT average (although it does not appear to be a growing field here). I don't think reading an outdated editorial off an anti-H1B visa website really counts as doing your research.

Our nation is proud to have the best and the brightest working for us. A programmer who graduates from DeVry might not have the same capabilities as an MIT programmer (not that it couldn't be the other way around, too). Maybe people who aren't any good at their jobs should be the ones worried about losing them. The truth is that the number of CS graduates has been steadily declining in this country in this decade, and the field is actually bigger now than back in the dotcom era. Maybe we need H1B workers to fill the holes GOOD American programmers can't fill.

That particular blurb was from Nov 2006 SFO Chronicle, so I don't thint it's that outdated. The number of CS graduates has declined, because they are under the impression that they can't get a job if they are a U.S. citizen and that's sad. If a person is at MIT by all means they are the best and brightest, but I don't think the last year's 50K H-1B's were all from MIT, they are from the Indian outsourcing companies. I just think it should be based on not displacing and laying off American workers then replacing them and using a "loophole" to do so.

[homesick_american 1]

I still can't understand why spanish is such a problem.. as giving away your American pride by learning spanish... what's the difference between learning spanish, or french, or Italian or Finnish? I really can't understand why people find spanish so offensive.... so insulting to them to learn such 'inferior' language.. I give all languages the same respect.. and.. also.. learning spanish doesn't mean kids can't learn other languages, like their house language...

I think it's the fact that Spanish is pushed on America. Other languages one learns by choice. That's the big difference.

I think this "pushed on us" or "shoved in our faces" stuff doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, sure, signs should be posted in English if they're in Spanish--two languages is fine--but I don't see anywhere else that it's being forced on us. And anyone who has lived in this country in the past 20 years is likely to have picked up basic Spanish phrases and directions. I can not imagine seeing a sign in Spanish and not knowing what it said, at least basically, even before I learned some Portuguese. And note, I live in Minnesota, where there are certainly MANY Spanish speakers, but there isn't an area where the signs are only in Spanish.

I grew up in Texas and there are some parts of cities where signs on shops are all in Spanish, but the road signs are never in Spanish only, at least not that I've seen.

Florida is a different planet though; I've heard people talking about Spanish-only signs for years down there, and I've heard that announcements in Miami's airport are given in Spanish first, English second. Bizarre.