Isis and Islam

[OriZ 3,165]

"people of the book"

[Comment 8]

In many places in the Hadith, Muhammad tells his followers that he has been ordered by Allah to fight unbelievers until they profess their faith in Islam (theShahada).

According to Muslim historians, when Abu Sufyan went to seek peace with Muhammad, he was instead forced to embrace Islam. The exact words spoken to him in Muhammad's presence were, "Submit and testify that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the apostle of Allah before you lose your head" - (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 814). He did.

The entire city of Mecca followed suit, even though the residents and leaders detested Muhammad and resisted his preaching from the beginning. Most of them "converted" to Islam the day that he abruptly marched into their city with an army.

Meccans who would not change their religion were forcibly expelled from the city following that last Haj (Quran 9:5). The Christians and Jews living in Arabia at the time suffered the same fate, courtesy of a deathbed directive from Muhammad. They were given the choice of either accepting Islam or being forced off their land (Sahih Muslim 19:4366).

The Jews at Khaybar were not at war with Muhammad when he ordered his Jihadis to attack them. Even his faithful son-in-law, Ali, whom he chose to head the mission, was somewhat perplexed as to the pretext on which they were to assault this peaceful farming community so far away from Medina:

The Jews were caught entirely be surprise, of course. Their wealth was stolen and their women and children taken and distributed as slaves by the prophet of Islam to his men. Muhammad even took a woman for himself - after have her husband put to death.

Muhammad said: 'Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory', and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: 'Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?' Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: 'Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger' (Sahih Muslim 31:5917)

Before he died, Muhammad sent his warriors against pagan Arab tribes, such as the al-Harith, demanding that they either convert to Islam or be wiped out (naturally, they opted for Islam). He cursed Christians and Jews to the very end (Bukhari 8:427).

According to al-Shafi in "The Ordinances of the Quran", Muhammad "defeated the people until they entered Islam by hook or by crook." Muslims are taught to follow in the way of their prophet. A devotee under the reign of Umar put it this way "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute)" (Bukhari 53:386).

Likewise, Abu Bakr, Muhammad's closest companion and immediate successor, pressed Jihad aggressively into foreign territory against people who did not want war and were of no threat. In a letter sent to the Persians, the caliph bluntly stated, "You should convert to Islam, and then you will be safe, for if you don't, you should know that I have come to you with an army of men that love death, as you love life."

Through the centuries, Muslims have forced Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, pagans and others to accept Islam, either by bluntly offering them death as an alternative, or by making their lives so miserable (ie. taxes, denial of rights...) that the conquered eventually convert to Islam under the strain.

Forced conversions persist among extremists. Recently in Egypt, a Christian girl was kidnapped and told that she would be raped if she did not convert. In 2010, an 11-year-old Christian boy in Pakistan was kept enslaved in chains (1, 2) by his Muslim landlord, who proudly told the world that he would liberate the lad if he embraced Islam.

Neither of these examples of attempted forced conversion was condemned by Islamic organizations, even in the West. From the Muslim perspective, the victim in each case technically retains the "choice" to convert, even if the only alternative is death. In fact, some even lauded the Pakistani slave-owner for being magnanimous in offering freedom and debt relief to his subject for embracing Islam.

After the high-profile kidnapping and forced conversion of hundreds of Christian girls by Boko Haram in 2014, a Muslim woman in the UK famously proclaimed that they had actually been "liberated" from the "shackles of slavery."

It is also important to note the critical role that jizya plays in Islamic conversion. According to the Quran, paying a "tax" to Muslims is the only avenue of escape for those who don't want to leave their religion. This source of income explains why Muhammad and his successor did not force everyone to convert to Islam following a military conquest.

As Muhammad realized with the Jews of Khaybar - who were allowed to keep their farming community provided they directed the profits of their labor to him - it was often more lucrative to leave local economies in place rather than killing every male who wouldn't convert. This became the loose rule for the Muslim armies that swept across Christian, Jewish, Persian, Hindu and Buddhist lands in the decades that followed. Part of the money collected was used to finance further Islamic military expansion, producing more income and more "converts".

As Muhammad put it: "My sustenance is under the shade of my spear, and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated by paying Jizya" (another translation: "My provision has been placed under the shadow of my spear, and abasement and humility have been placed on the one who disobeys my command.") This hadith has been quoted by al-Qaeda and is found in the original version of Bukhari and Ahmad (5114 or 4869, depending on the translation).

In fairness, Muslims have generally tended to follow verse 2:256 of the Quran, which states, "Let there be no compulsion in religion." and have not felt it right to force others into embracing Islam. However, this does not change the religion itself. Verse 2:256 was clearly abrogated by later verses, particularly in Sura 9 - otherwise the practice of killing apostates if they do not recant their chose faith would not have become an acceptable part of Islamic law.

Another point to keep in mind is that in Islam, practice is more important than belief. Muslims are commanded to fight unbelievers until they say they believe in Allah (or pay the Jizya), but there seems to be a tacit understanding that belief itself can't be forced (what is may be what is really meant by "there is no compulsion in religion"). Nevertheless, once a subjugated individual outwardly converts to Islam under the strain of taxes and discrimination, they are not allowed to recant upon penalty of death. Their children must also be raised Muslim. And, if they aren't, it is a sign of apostasy - subject to death. This is how Islam managed to spread so successfully within conquered populations to ratios in the high 90th percentiles over the native religion.

It is ironic that the Muslim community is most sensitive to a non-Muslim presence in "Muslim lands" when those lands were not originally Muslim until they were conquered by force. The blatant double standard is rhetorically dismissed by declaring that Islam was the original religion practiced by Jews (such as Moses) and Christians (such as Jesus and his followers). Thus the conquered populations are said to be "reverts."

One last point of interest is that Muhammad's practice of ordering people to profess their belief in him proved disastrous both for his own family and the legacy of his religion. By the time of his death, his empire included a great many people and tribes who had accepted his rule merely to avoid war and slavery. Many of them wanted out after he died, and several wars were immediately fought, resulting in thousands of deaths.

Even Muhammad's sworn enemy of Abu Sufyan may have gotten the last laugh. So ambitious was the prophet of Islam, that he accepted his former foe's outward profession of allegiance (at the point of a sword) in order to expand his empire. Yet, it was Abu Sufyan's own children who ultimately benefited - at the expense of Muhammad's family.

Abu Sufyan's son, Muawiyah, inherited the empire after defeating Muhammad's adopted son, Ali. He also poisoned Hasan, one of the prophet's two favorite grandsons. Abu Sufyan's grandson, Yazid, became the next caliph and promptly had the head of Muhammad's other favorite grandson, Hussein, brought to him on a platter.

So from this, you could see why I believe that the terrorists at least think what they are doing is in the name of Islam. They are not killing just for the sake of killing. For instance in Iraq they offered the option to convert, or pay the tax, or die, same as what's written above.

Like I said, there's nothing to be ashamed of, all religions practiced this. But it's crucial to be aware of WHY those people think what they are doing is in the name of god and not try to sweep it under the rug. You mentioned your best friend is Jewish, I myself have some good muslim friends. I also have a half Muslim half Jewish former Chechen friend(immigrant to Israel from the former Soviet union). It's kinda funny cause in Islam he's considered a muslim with a muslim father but in Judaism he is Jewish cause his mom's Jewish. I also have an ex who is half Muslim. Before I met my now American wife, on one of my trips to England I met her, her mom is Persian and moved to England shortly after the revolution, the father is a Christian Brit. lol it's an interesting world we live in. I don't think that all Muslims are bad, but I do think that some are doing themselves a disservice by trying to sweep things under the rug instead of fighting extremism head on.

Hello again. Sorry if I missed this post. Wow it is pretty long! I will reply to some critical,points of it so we don't turn the topic into pure religion as this isn't a religion forum.

The story about Abo Sufyan has nothing of this sort and the prophet entered Mecca without any blood spilt. Back then it was you either join Islam or pay "jizyah" which is some form of tax. Not all books are accurate.

Now about the Jews of Khaybar they betrayed the agreement ( Hodybia agreement ) between them and the Muslims by allying with the disbeliever promising to let them enter Medina without Muslims noticing them. Therefore, the war of Khaybar happened. The prophet order to Ali was once you enter territory invite them to Islam, because if just a single person joined Islam better for you than everything on earth.

Now about the Meccians that were expelled after the last Haj. The disbelievers were forbidden from visiting Kaba and he gave them four months before they would no longer be able to visit except the ones that had a long term agreement with Muslims.

If you would like I can send you a private message with response to all the points you mention. Friendly reminder this isn't a topic about religious differences otherwise we will need years of discussion!

Thank you.

[Expat1 971]

You are obviously not a practicing(or a "partial" very selective practicing) Muslim. That is ok I'm the same way as a Jew. You do realize that if you were practicing according to the Quran that's on your dresser your wife would have had to convert.

Oriz that's not quite true. Islam is a man's world after all. He can marry a non-Muslim and she does not have to convert, but if she were Muslim he would HAVE to convert or the marriage is not recognized and she is considered an adulterer and subject to various grades of punishment, in ALL muslim countries, while he gets off scot free. Great right?

As to the rest of it, if you're caught practicing (openly) another religion here in Saudi you are arrested and severely punished. Not just a few people support that, they all do. There is no "christian or jewish" uncle here, I guaran-dam-tee you that.

That view and that intolerance is widespread and it is mainstream and it is based on Islam as written down and taught.

This can be sugar-coated to the rest of you, but not to me. Not after 5 years here.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Expat1

[OriZ 3,165]

I guess that it all depends on your interpretation. The bible, all bible, and all religious books, like to contradict themselves. In certain parts of the old testament it will say one thing and in another a different thing. Same with the new testament. Same with the Quran.

At one point in time it did permit a Muslim man to marry up to 4 non Muslim women as long as they are either Jewish or Christian, yes. However according to many this practice is no longer valid. It is also disliked by Muslim scholars because the Caliph, Umar, banned interfaith marriages for Muslim men. And, Quran verse 4:25 tells Muslims to marry Muslims.

In addition, in many parts in the Quran it calls upon Muslims to fight non-believers. Kinda contradicts with allowing one to marry one.

(8:39, 9:29, 9:5, 9:11(weird coincidence), 9:56-57, 2:193, 3:83).

There's also places in the Hadith:

(1:33, 19:4294, 8:387, 53:392, 2:24, 60:80, 60:40, 59:643,

Oriz that's not quite true. Islam is a man's world after all. He can marry a non-Muslim and she does not have to convert, but if she were Muslim he would HAVE to convert or the marriage is not recognized and she is considered an adulterer and subject to various grades of punishment, in ALL muslim countries, while he gets off scot free. Great right?

As to the rest of it, if you're caught practicing (openly) another religion here in Saudi you are arrested and severely punished. Not just a few people support that, they all do. There is no "christian or jewish" uncle here, I guaran-dam-tee you that.

That view and that intolerance is widespread and it is mainstream and it is based on Islam as written down and taught.

This can be sugar-coated to the rest of you, but not to me. Not after 5 years here.

I've already addressed that in my second response to him(see quote above). I guess it varies by interpretation.

As far as the woman goes yes and the interesting thing is even if they were both non muslim but she converted AFTER marriage he would have to convert as well.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Welcome to the forum Comment.

[Comment 8]

Welcome to the forum Comment.

Thank you Stay Woke

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Thank you Stay Woke

Your commentary is sorely needed here. Glad to see someone better versed in the ways of Islam posting here.

[OriZ 3,165]

Oriz that's not quite true. Islam is a man's world after all. He can marry a non-Muslim and she does not have to convert, but if she were Muslim he would HAVE to convert or the marriage is not recognized and she is considered an adulterer and subject to various grades of punishment, in ALL muslim countries, while he gets off scot free. Great right?

As to the rest of it, if you're caught practicing (openly) another religion here in Saudi you are arrested and severely punished. Not just a few people support that, they all do. There is no "christian or jewish" uncle here, I guaran-dam-tee you that.

That view and that intolerance is widespread and it is mainstream and it is based on Islam as written down and taught.

This can be sugar-coated to the rest of you, but not to me. Not after 5 years here.

Yes but just because Saudi has certain laws, or other countries for that matter does not necessarily mean that they are following Islam 100% either. For instance, in Malaysia a non Muslim(whether man or woman) must convert in order to marry a muslim. Their kids are automatically muslims and all malaysian muslims are legally prohibited from leaving Islam.

I don't know all the rules of Saudi but seems like just like certain terror organizations take whatever they want from it so do certain countries.

Edited November 23, 2015 by OriZ

[Expat1 971]

Yes but just because Saudi has certain laws, or other countries for that matter does not necessarily mean that they are following Islam 100% either. For instance, in Malaysia a non Muslim(whether man or woman) must convert in order to marry a muslim. Their kids are automatically muslims and all malaysian muslims are legally prohibited from leaving Islam.

I don't know all the rules of Saudi but seems like just like certain terror organizations take whatever they want from it so do certain countries.

See that's funny Oriz. If I said what you said publicly Yes but just because Saudi has certain laws, or other countries for that matter does not necessarily mean that they are following Islam 100% in Saudi then the punishment for criticizing their laws, based on Islam, is hundreds of lashes.

The Quran itself however allows Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women, but forbids Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men.

Muslims are forbidden from leaving Islam in all Muslim countries. Punishment for apostasy ranges from prison to lashes to death in every single one.

Some really cool hadith:

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #57

Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Bukhari, volume 9, #58

Narrated Abu Burda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers .....

[OriZ 3,165]

See that's funny Oriz. If I said what you said publicly Yes but just because Saudi has certain laws, or other countries for that matter does not necessarily mean that they are following Islam 100% in Saudi then the punishment for criticizing their laws, based on Islam, is hundreds of lashes.

The Quran itself however allows Muslim men to marry non-Muslim women, but forbids Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men.

Muslims are forbidden from leaving Islam in all Muslim countries. Punishment for apostasy ranges from prison to lashes to death in every single one.

Some really cool hadith:

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #57

Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Bukhari, volume 9, #58

Narrated Abu Burda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers .....

Soooooooo....when ya comin back home? lol

BTW on my kitchen table right now I have The Essence of Zohar right next to Mein Kamph. Talk about a contradiction lol

Edited November 24, 2015 by OriZ