Putin strong? He cannot even control his own propaganda machine

[deleted-05292014 331]

I love Russian history, it's very fascinating to study. The one constant theme that can be found throughout their history is their desire to have access to the sea and or sea ports. Crimea is no exception to this.

[LibCampFireClub 635]

They know what happened. They don't know how to fix it. As I said before, IMO, they were hoping the nationalists went back to Lyiv and they didn't. That's the kind of thing that can happen when you mix hope and change with no real plan on how to get there.

Maybe it's your partner who's from the Ukraine so you probably know a little more about the people there than most of us. What do the people of the Ukraine want to happen? I guess the Crimea region are mostly Russian, and to the East are ethnic non-Russians. Can they live together, or is it that the Russian-Ukrainians want Putin, and the non-Russian Ukrainian's don't?

[Dakine10 5,452]

Maybe it's your partner who's from the Ukraine so you probably know a little more about the people there than most of us. What do the people of the Ukraine want to happen? I guess the Crimea region are mostly Russian, and to the East are ethnic non-Russians. Can they live together, or is it that the Russian-Ukrainians want Putin, and the non-Russian Ukrainian's don't?

They do live together. The majority of people converse in Ukrainian and Russian. If they don't speak both languages, they speak one language and understand the other. I think the natural course of things would have led to more balanced trade with both Russia and the EU. It would have been the best for the people of Ukraine. Forcing the issue led to the current state of affairs. No matter what happens now, Ukraine will be unstable, on the edge of bankruptcy and needing handouts and loans from somebody for a long time.

Even in Crimea, the majority are pro Russian but not overwhelmingly. They never really wanted to completely join Russia before, it was mainly talk of greater autonomy. They wanted to be themselves. The surge in Ukrainian nationalism and the anti minority laws coming out of Kiev have precipitated this. And Russia is trying to capitalize on it. They have always wanted Crimea and they are going to do everything they think they can not to let this chance slip by.

[LibCampFireClub 635]

They do live together. The majority of people converse in Ukrainian and Russian. If they don't speak both languages, they speak one language and understand the other. I think the natural course of things would have led to more balanced trade with both Russia and the EU. It would have been the best for the people of Ukraine. Forcing the issue led to the current state of affairs. No matter what happens now, Ukraine will be unstable, on the edge of bankruptcy and needing handouts and loans from somebody for a long time.

Even in Crimea, the majority are pro Russian but not overwhelmingly. They never really wanted to completely join Russia before, it was mainly talk of greater autonomy. They wanted to be themselves. The surge in Ukrainian nationalism and the anti minority laws coming out of Kiev have precipitated this. And Russia is trying to capitalize on it. They have always wanted Crimea and they are going to do everything they think they can not to let this chance slip by.

You're partner surely has family there. It must be a hard time for her.

[Dakine10 5,452]

She's worried about her aunt in Kiev. She has a flight scheduled to Crimea in June to visit her dad. It's going through Moscow to Simferopol. She was going to cancel but she feels OK about it at the moment, but that could change at any time.

[Dakine10 5,452]

John Kerry called out for being a hypocrite.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2014/march/03/kerry-to-russia-you-cant-just-invade-a-country-on-false-pretences.aspx

Kerry to Russia: You Can't Just Invade a Country on False Pretences

s

monday march 3, 2014

Poor John Kerry. He is prone to foot-in-mouth syndrome, but clearly the stress is getting to him. It's understandable. The Secretary of State and his minions went and provoked a regime change in Ukraine to which they sang the chorus "democracy" and "people power" only to discover that: 1) the new leadership has a bad case of Basil Fawlty syndrome, stiff-arming at every opportunity; and 2) a good chunk of the country (as the rest of us could tell looking at voting maps) had no intention of going along with the US-engineered regime change in Kiev.

First Crimea, with a majority Russian and Russian-speaking population, rejected the self-proclaimed government in Kiev, then one by one eastern Ukrainians began mass demonstrations where the Russian flag was hoisted on public buildings.

In Kiev, the demonstrations are "people power." In Donetsk and Sebastopol it is "armed gunmen." That is the view of western governments and their media class. But the authorities in the autonomous province of Crimea -- backed by tens of thousands in the streets -- did the unthinkable: they asked the Russians to protect them against the new Kiev regime which was en route to crush dissent.

Interventionism is a dirty game and there is considerable danger in believing too closely in one's own self-deceptions and on closed-loop analysis.

But what Kerry and his boss called a "invasion" looked a lot more like the neocon fantasy of how US troops would be greeted in Baghdad. In other words, for an invading force, the Russians seemed to be welcomed by the local population.

The stress was clearly too much. Today on Face the Nation Kerry delivered the kind of hilarious groaner that undermines the entire US manufactured outrage at Russia's action next door in Ukraine. Said Kerry on camera:

It is really a stunning, willful choice by President Putin to invade another country...You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext.

One risks ruining the punchline by mentioning such words as Iraq, Libya, Mali, Somalia, Yugoslavia, and so on...

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Urmas Paet offically confirmed having the conversation. That's what the article is about. There is no proof yet, and it is still one mans opinion, so yes it would qualify as a conspiracy theory. Which is why I said we better hope it's just propaganda.

Ukraine government will vote next week on a bill that makes anyone having dual citizenship subject to punishment of up to 10 years in jail. If it passes, it will be the 3rd anti minority law passed by a government that was only supposed to transition to the May 26th election. Russian media is already blocked in Ukraine. Minority language laws have been abolished. Jews have been advised to get out of Kiev.

You posted a bit about Russia from a historical perspective. I'm sure you're familiar with German history from the early 20th century. Nothing looking familiar here to you at all?

Not so fast. The conversation is confirmed but the Estonian foreign ministry specifically rejected the claim that RT fabricated out of it.

A leaked phone call between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet has revealed that the two discussed a conspiracy theory that blamed the killing of civilian protesters in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, on the opposition rather than the ousted government.

The 11-minute conversation was posted on YouTube – it is the second time in a month that telephone calls between western diplomats discussing Ukraine have been bugged.

In the call, Paet said he had been told snipers responsible for killing police and civilians in Kiev last month were protest movement provocateurs rather than supporters of then-president Viktor Yanukovych. Ashton responds: "I didn't know … Gosh."

The leak came a day after the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said the snipers may have been opposition provocateurs. The Kremlin-funded Russia Today first carried the leaked call online.

The Estonian foreign ministry confirmed the leaked conversation was accurate. It said: "Foreign minister Paet was giving an overview of what he had heard in Kiev and expressed concern over the situation on the ground. We reject the claim that Paet was giving an assessment of the opposition's involvement in the violence." Ashton's office said it did not comment on leaks.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/05/ukraine-bugged-call-catherine-ashton-urmas-paet

[Dakine10 5,452]

Not so fast. The conversation is confirmed but the Estonian foreign ministry specifically rejected the claim that RT fabricated out of it.

Yes I expect they would. He did say the same snipers were shooting at police and protesters and that it should be investigated further. CNN/BBC says that it was police snipers (shooting at themselves I guess) and RT says that the snipers were part of the nationalist militia, using violence hasten the fall of the government. We shall see.

Lets see who supports further investigation and who tries to brush it off. That will say a lot. Russia likely has half of Ukraine bugged and the NSA is listening to everyone, everywhere. After all is said and done, I doubt there will be any secrets here.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Yes I expect they would. He did say the same snipers were shooting at police and protesters and that it should be investigated further. CNN/BBC says that it was police snipers (shooting at themselves I guess) and RT says that the snipers were part of the nationalist militia, using violence hasten the fall of the government. We shall see.

Lets see who supports further investigation and who tries to brush it off. That will say a lot. Russia likely has half of Ukraine bugged and the NSA is listening to everyone, everywhere. After all is said and done, I doubt there will be any secrets here.

He did not say that at all. He said that that is what he was told and the EU counterpart in the conversation said that that might warrant an investigation.That's all. The rest is what RT fabricated and what was emphatically rejected by those you want to claim as a source. Doesn't work that way. It still is propaganda. Which is what RT does. By design.

[Dakine10 5,452]

He did not say that at all. He said that that is what he was told and the EU counterpart in the conversation said that that might warrant an investigation.That's all. The rest is what RT fabricated and what was emphatically rejected by those you want to claim as a source. Doesn't work that way. It still is propaganda. Which is what RT does. By design.

Someone, a doctor, told Urmas Paet, and he passed that along to Catherine Ashton. I think your getting hung up on semantics and missing the big picture. No one is suggesting Paet has first hand knowledge of this.

What Paet said, or sorry - what Paet said he was told - is very much in line with what Yanukovich said all along, that the snipers were not part of the police presence and not ordered by him. This is the basis of his "quasi impeachment". Of note - Yanukovich cannot be legally impeached at this time as the new government of Ukraine has terminated all of the high court judges - the only ones who can rule on this. That leaves trial at the Hague as the only option and the basis for that trial was that he ordered police to fire on civilians.

I've read RT's report on this. They say that the leaked call is authentic and needs to be investigated. That much is true. Paet says

“there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition.”

[Dakine10 5,452]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26444747

Meanwhile, a recording of a phone conversation between EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet has been leaked on the internet.

In the recording, Mr Paet told Baroness Ashton that there was an "increasing understanding" in Ukraine that ousted President Viktor Yanukovych's government was not responsible for the deaths of police and protesters during clashes last month in Kiev.

He said some Ukrainians believed elements from within the new regime in Kiev had employed snipers.

He said Ukrainian doctor Olga Bogomolets had told him that victims from both sides were shot by snipers using the same weapons.

However, Dr Bogomolets told the UK's Telegraph newspaper that she had never had access to victims from the government side and was unable to comment on how they had been killed.

Mr Paet confirmed that the conversation with Baroness Ashton had taken place on 26 February.

In a news conference on Wednesday, he called for an inquiry into the deaths in Kiev, but warned against using his comments to discredit the new government.

"I call for journalists to treat this recording very carefully. I was talking about the theories there were about what happened in Ukraine," he said.

[Dakine10 5,452]

From Putin's propaganda channel to Obama's.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/05/world/europe/ukraine-leaked-audio-recording/

Leaked call raises questions about who was behind sniper attacks in Ukraine

By Dana Ford, CNN

updated 11:52 PM EST, Wed March 5, 2014

Unknown leakers posted a call between Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, pictured here at a meeting in 2013.

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• A call between Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and Catherine Ashton is leaked
• In the recording, Paet talks about his recent visit to Ukraine
• He says a doctor told him the opposition may have been behind deadly sniper fire
• Paet: "The fact that this phone call has been leaked is not a coincidence"

(CNN) -- Don't read too much into the conversation.

That was the message Wednesday from Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet after a phone call between him and European Union foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton was leaked.

In the recording, which was posted to YouTube and picked up by Russian media, Paet talks about his recent visit to Ukraine. He says a doctor named "Olga" told him opponents of Ukraine's ousted President may have been responsible for deadly sniper fire.

President Viktor Yanukovych fled more than a week ago in the wake of protests in Kiev's Independence Square, where snipers from nearby rooftops killed scores of people.

Turmoil continues in Ukraine

Ukrainian crisis: 'This is Putin's show'

Intel officials take heat from lawmakers

"(Olga) can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition that -- they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition," Paet told Ashton.

She replied: "I think we do want to investigate ... I didn't pick that up. That's interesting. Gosh."

Paet's office released a statement Wednesday that confirmed the authenticity of the recording. It said the call took place on February 26.

"Foreign Minister Paet was giving an overview of what he had heard the previous day in Kiev and expressed concern over the situation on the ground. We reject the claim that Paet was giving an assessment of the opposition's involvement in the violence," the statement read.

"It is extremely regrettable that phone calls are being intercepted," said Paet in the same statement. "The fact that this phone call has been leaked is not a coincidence."

Ashton's office declined to comment on the conversation, saying she does not discuss leaks.

CNN could not immediately reach the Ukrainian government for comment, nor could it confirm the identity of "Olga."

Russia's state-news agency RIA-Novosti said she was Olga Bogomolets, chief coordinator of medical aid at the main protest camp in Independence Square.

CNN has previously talked to Bogomolets. She volunteered last month to treat protesters and accused forces of shooting to kill, saying she had treated 13 people she believed had been targeted by "professional snipers."

"They were shot directly to their hearts, their brain and to their neck," she said. "They didn't give any chance to doctors, for us, to save lives."

The recording is the second such recent leak on Ukraine.

Early last month, a leaked audio recording of a phone call allegedly caught a U.S. diplomat to Europe using profanity to express strong frustrations with inaction and indecision by the European Union in resolving the crisis.

In the conversation, voices closely resembling those of Assistant Secretary for European Affairs Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discuss a plan to broker a deal between the Ukrainian government and the opposition.

At one point the woman, who sounds like Nuland, can be heard saying "f**k the EU."

The call could not be independently verified, and it was not clear when and where it was recorded.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In a news conference on Wednesday, he called for an inquiry into the deaths in Kiev, but warned against using his comments to discredit the new government.

"I call for journalists to treat this recording very carefully. I was talking about the theories there were about what happened in Ukraine," he said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26444747

And what does RT make out of that? This:

The Estonian FM has described the whole sniper issue as “disturbing” and added, “it already discredits from the very beginning” the new Ukrainian power.

He has said no such thing. He actually has said the exact opposite.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

From Putin's propaganda channel to Obama's.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/05/world/europe/ukraine-leaked-audio-recording/

CNN is the White House's propaganda channel?

[Dakine10 5,452]

And what does RT make out of that? This:

He has said no such thing. He actually has said the exact opposite.

He said this. Quit being obtuse.

“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,” Urmas Paet said during the conversation.