Muslim woman refuses to remove her veil in court, so judge tosses case

[Veiled Princess 1]

.... that means any understanding of any religion.

No, it doesn't mean that. If it did, I'd make a religion up right now and demand my new found rights.

It most certainly does... you are free to make up any religion you want and free to practice it here.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

.... that means any understanding of any religion.

No, it doesn't mean that. If it did, I'd make a religion up right now and demand my new found rights.

It most certainly does... you are free to make up any religion you want and free to practice it here.

What if my religion demanded human sacrifice? The laws of this nation wouldn't let me. Freedom has its limits.

Fact: in that courtroom, the law gives that judge the right to ask her to take her veil off.

Edited October 23, 2006 by Gupt

[Veiled Princess 1]

What if my religion demanded human sacrifice? The laws of this nation wouldn't let me. Freedom has its limits.

Fact: in that courtroom, the law gives that judge the right to ask her to take her veil off.

I don't disagree with that... however, the fact that not all muslim women wear the veil or see it as a religious symbol has nothing to do with that.

I don't think it's fair to compare wearing a veil with human sacrifice though

In most (if not all muslim countries), veiled women also have to remove the veil to testify... those judges are a bit more sensitive to the issue, however, and will allow the woman to do so in private instead of asking her to remove it in front of the entire court room filled with people.

[choji 0]

This woman should be embracing her American culture not hiding behind some form of dress that most women musilim or not.... do not wear in the USA.... Even a Catholic Nun can be asked to remove her head dress while in a court....

Kezzie

What gives you that idea, if I may ask?

Judge Paul Paruk said he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave Muhammad, 42, a choice: take off the veil when testifying or the case would be dismissed.

No nun's headdress hides the face. Why should they be ordered to take it off?

[Peikko 1,575]

Boston Legal made a very interseting point vis a vis religious freedom. Tongue in cheek it may have been, but it certainly made me think

[Veiled Princess 1]

Boston Legal made a very interseting point vis a vis religious freedom. Tongue in cheek it may have been, but it certainly made me think

Gotta link?

[Peikko 1,575]

Oops, no. It wasn't reference anything Muslim, but a lawyer who fired an employee who promoted Scientology.

Not being a lawyer, I have no idea if the arguments put forward had any legal basis, the point however seemed to be that a line must be drawn between religous freedom and personal predeliction. I found it interesting.

[PlatyPius 5]

Notably, the article leaves out a critical detail--whether ms. Muhammad actually paid the extra insurance when she rented.

A callous fact--if she paid only basic rental (plus tax), she had no case to begin with!

Good Gods! What the hell's wrong with you?!?!?!? Are you trying to force her to actually take some *gasp* Personal Responsibility??????

She probably knew she'd get more mileage out of wearing the veil to court and refusing to take it off. Now she can go for not only the damages to the car, but also discrimination and religious persecution.

That's worth what? 3 million?

[Kez/JWolf 6]

This woman should be embracing her American culture not hiding behind some form of dress that most women musilim or not.... do not wear in the USA.... Even a Catholic Nun can be asked to remove her head dress while in a court....

Kezzie

What gives you that idea, if I may ask?

Judge Paul Paruk said he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave Muhammad, 42, a choice: take off the veil when testifying or the case would be dismissed.

No nun's headdress hides the face. Why should they be ordered to take it off?

My cousin is a Federal Court Judge and I asked him about this case he said he has the right to ask anyone including a nun to remove any headwear if he wishes it....

Kezzie

[choji 0]

This woman should be embracing her American culture not hiding behind some form of dress that most women musilim or not.... do not wear in the USA.... Even a Catholic Nun can be asked to remove her head dress while in a court....

Kezzie

What gives you that idea, if I may ask?

Judge Paul Paruk said he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave Muhammad, 42, a choice: take off the veil when testifying or the case would be dismissed.

No nun's headdress hides the face. Why should they be ordered to take it off?

My cousin is a Federal Court Judge and I asked him about this case he said he has the right to ask anyone including a nun to remove any headwear if he wishes it....

Kezzie

Sorry if I insist - but what for?

A nun's headgear is certainly not worn "in contempt of court" and also does not cover the face, thus giving the judge any facial clues he needs to judge a nun's truthfullness.

So, where's the point?

Why would any judge whish to do so?

What would be gained from it?

[babybunny 2]

This woman should be embracing her American culture not hiding behind some form of dress that most women musilim or not.... do not wear in the USA.... Even a Catholic Nun can be asked to remove her head dress while in a court....

Kezzie

She is embracing her American Culture thats her RIGHT to be able to practice her religon. Veil for many ladies is very important- it should be respected.

[Candace 2]

This woman should be embracing her American culture not hiding behind some form of dress that most women musilim or not.... do not wear in the USA.... Even a Catholic Nun can be asked to remove her head dress while in a court....

Kezzie

What gives you that idea, if I may ask?

Judge Paul Paruk said he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave Muhammad, 42, a choice: take off the veil when testifying or the case would be dismissed.

No nun's headdress hides the face. Why should they be ordered to take it off?

My cousin is a Federal Court Judge and I asked him about this case he said he has the right to ask anyone including a nun to remove any headwear if he wishes it....

Kezzie

Sorry if I insist - but what for?

A nun's headgear is certainly not worn "in contempt of court" and also does not cover the face, thus giving the judge any facial clues he needs to judge a nun's truthfullness.

So, where's the point?

Why would any judge whish to do so?

What would be gained from it?

I think Kezzie was saying that the judge has the right in the court to ask anyone to not wear something that he or she deems inappropriate. Using the nun's headdress was probably not a great example, but an example all the same of a judge's power granted by the law in his or her courtroom. I don't think a Nun's headdress would ever be deemed inappropriate, however, seeing how it does not interfere with the face (unless nuns in real life look different to the ones on 'The Sound of Music'...)

[GaryC 7]

A lot of places have laws banning disguises in public. Would a veil be covered under that?

[Kez/JWolf 6]

This woman should be embracing her American culture not hiding behind some form of dress that most women musilim or not.... do not wear in the USA.... Even a Catholic Nun can be asked to remove her head dress while in a court....

Kezzie

What gives you that idea, if I may ask?

Judge Paul Paruk said he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave Muhammad, 42, a choice: take off the veil when testifying or the case would be dismissed.

No nun's headdress hides the face. Why should they be ordered to take it off?

My cousin is a Federal Court Judge and I asked him about this case he said he has the right to ask anyone including a nun to remove any headwear if he wishes it....

Kezzie

Sorry if I insist - but what for?

A nun's headgear is certainly not worn "in contempt of court" and also does not cover the face, thus giving the judge any facial clues he needs to judge a nun's truthfullness.

So, where's the point?

Why would any judge whish to do so?

What would be gained from it?

I think Kezzie was saying that the judge has the right in the court to ask anyone to not wear something that he or she deems inappropriate. Using the nun's headdress was probably not a great example, but an example all the same of a judge's power granted by the law in his or her courtroom. I don't think a Nun's headdress would ever be deemed inappropriate, however, seeing how it does not interfere with the face (unless nuns in real life look different to the ones on 'The Sound of Music'...)

Thanks Yes I was trying to point out that a Judge has the right to ask anyone to remove any item they are wearing inside his court.... I think that the judge in this case tried to make a compromise by saying she could wear her vail when not giving evidence but it would have to be removed while she was.... seem fair to me....

Kezzie

[Aymerlu 3]

Ginnnah Muhammad of Detroit was looking for her day in court.

Instead, she said she felt as if a judge forced her to choose between her case and her religion in a small-claims dispute in Hamtramck District Court.

A devout Muslim, she wore a niqab - a scarf and veil to cover her face and head except for her eyes - Oct. 11 as she contested a rental car company's charging her $2,750 to repair a vehicle after thieves broke into it.

Judge Paul Paruk said he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness and gave Muhammad, 42, a choice: take off the veil when testifying or the case would be dismissed. She kept the veil on.

[...]

Paruk said he offered to let Muhammad, who was born in the United States and converted to Islam at the age of 10, wear the veil during the proceedings except when she testified. He said this was the first time someone had come before his court wearing a niqab, and he noted that many Muslims do not consider it a religious symbol.

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtl...on/15817636.htm

i have been to court many times..not as a criminal though...but as a witness for the parole board etc...the judge can order anyone to go home and put on what he/she deems as proper clothing or remove items..like a ball hat ..

I was going to say the exact same thing. A few years ago I had to testify in a medical case and we were not allowed to wear our lab coats inside the court room. I thought that was a bit odd. I sat there for 2 hours freezing my butt!