You want to talk about arbitrary?

[COSMOPOLITAN 1 0]

Please read this post I have received from another frustraded American Citizen

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I was born outside the US to an American mother and a father who is a citizen of my birth country. My sister, brothers and I were respectively 11, 7, 6 and 5 when we relocated to the US. As we were all minors, we entered the country under my mother's citizenship - we are recognized dual citizens by our birth country. The US, who reluctantly acknowledges that other countries recognize the concept of dual citizenship, recognized us as ex-pats returning home.

Fast forward till I (the oldest) reached majority. I contacted the Consulate of our birth country to ask how to manage things like passports, registering to vote, etc. The Consul told me that if someone in authority asked if I were an American citizen, to say Yes, but not to volunteer anything else unless asked specifically; they would continue to recognize me as a citizen until or unless I signed something saying I wasn't. I passed this information on to my siblings.

Okay, on to arbitrary. Each of the four of us applied for a US passport at various times. My sister sent in her application and received her passport a few weeks later, no questions asked. I had to get an affidavit from my mother declaring that she was a US citizen and confirming various dates that she was in residence in the US. One of my brothers had to provide our mother's school records, which luckily the city still had from the 40's. And my other brother had to get help from his Congressman. Each of us had been acknowledged as US citizens prior and had lived in the US for over a decade, since childhood, before our applications were submitted.

Arbitrary happens...

[jhm3 15]

It's interesting (and yes, somewhat arbitrary) that the passport applications of this individual and his siblings received different levels of scrutiny, but if, as seems to be the case, they were born abroad, didn't have Consular Reports of Birth Abroad issued by the US, and entered the US on foreign passports, it would be entirely in order for the Department of State to verify that their USC mother met the physical presence requirements to transmit citizenship to her children before approving passport applications. It may be that these siblings all lived in the US for more than a decade without their citizenship being questioned, but that wouldn't mean that they "had been acknowledged as US citizens."

[nwctzn 55]

Yes, life is unfair.

It always depends which officer is looking at your file. Some see everything as OK, some see a red flag and want further proof, and then you are in for some back and forth.

Glad though that at the end all of them got US passports, one way or the other.

--

Edited May 11, 2012 by nwctzn

[COSMOPOLITAN 1 0]

Check out this other one:

" The ####### behind the glass in my local consulate wanted my passport with its stamps from various countries and other documents to prove that I had been in the country and had "access to the female" at the time she became pregnant. He was talking about my wife. At least I then understood why that consular ####### needed bulletproof glass"

Good luck in your quest.

These posts that I have received are in response to some users of this forum which replied that the Consulate's employees are just doing their job and nothing more.

Since May 2011 I have been trying to get U.S. citizenship to my baby and yet our case is clear and simple.

This did not prevent us from some Consular's officiers to complicate things as much as possible.

A U.S. passport for a child born in the USA costs around $ 120, in our case we have already spent more than $ 1400 (all inclusive) and they pushed us back at step one.

Thank you

[NickD 203]

FAA flight check forms are like many of the immigration forms, while the actual forms are verbatim, the printed date in the lower right hand corner changes with each year. So we got a new FAA guy that doesn't know anything about electronics. His bug was that the date we signed the form should correspond with the date the form was printed. Don't even ask why! Made us go back ten years to redo all the forms, first problem was finding the correct dated forms. And ironically, we are only required to keep these forms on file for the last three years.

Didn't mind this at all, was getting paid for this, but consisting running into government employees that have some kind of strange bug up their butts. A lot different when you are on your own time and have to go through all of this stuff to get anything done. And what difference does it make?

We certainly had our share of problems with the USCIS, primarily all extremely trivial stuff depending on what idiot you get for an IO. How many people have you talked to working years for this government agency that haven't even taken the time to read the instructions, THEY printed out. And make up their own rules as they go along.

I enjoyed listening to Robert Clarke on the Bill Maher show last night explaining the number of idiots we have running this country. But on a supposingly comedy show, can get away with it. We don't even dare tell that person we are dealing with he/she is an idiot. To do so, is just cutting your own throat. For the first 150 years, these agencies could only advise congress, in the last 40 years, we have over 1,500 new agencies with absolute power your congressman doesn't even know anything about.

So why is it this way?

[COSMOPOLITAN 1 0]

Hello all

After having sent a fax to complain to our U.S. Ambassador (which I never got any answer for it)

I tried to find out about my fax from the Embassy by phone, the local agent who took the call told me "there is no way putting you in contact with someone here on this subject see this with the Consulate"

Then I called another direct number, a U.S. agent connected me with some office.

I explain to some lady that We want to travel to Forida and as permited by the current regulation: my baby daughter should obtain an American passport to get there.

I complain to her that despite everything I have done so far some of our U.S. Consulate agents are subjecting us to an arbitray way to proceed and to decide.

Then the lady says "The embassy is not concerned and why would you consider that your daughter should gets American citizenship, apply for a visa for her like any one in this country..."

After understanding that my case did not interrested her, I courteously shorted the phone call.

[nwctzn 55]

Hello all

After having sent a fax to complain to our U.S. Ambassador (which I never got any answer for it)

I tried to find out about my fax from the Embassy by phone, the local agent who took the call told me "there is no way putting you in contact with someone here on this subject see this with the Consulate"

Then I called another direct number, a U.S. agent connected me with some office.

I explain to some lady that We want to travel to Forida and as permited by the current regulation: my baby daughter should obtain an American passport to get there.

I complain to her that despite everything I have done so far some of our U.S. Consulate agents are subjecting us to an arbitray way to proceed and to decide.

Then the lady says "The embassy is not concerned and why would you consider that your daughter should gets American citizenship, apply for a visa for her like any one in this country..."

After understanding that my case did not interrested her, I courteously shorted the phone call.

Dealing with Consulates/Embassies of any country is really tough, no matter where you are. I had my fair amount of pain dealing with the German Embassy in my "original" country.

Anyway, coming back to your issue: Does your daughter hold a passport of her country of birth and is that country participating in the visa waiver program? If yes, it might make sense if you come to the US and directly deal with the passport agency here in the US. Take all documents that you provided so far with you to the passport agency. Hopefully they will be more helpful than the current embassy/consulate you are dealing with.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Please read this post I have received from another frustraded American Citizen

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I was born outside the US to an American mother and a father who is a citizen of my birth country. My sister, brothers and I were respectively 11, 7, 6 and 5 when we relocated to the US. As we were all minors, we entered the country under my mother's citizenship - we are recognized dual citizens by our birth country. The US, who reluctantly acknowledges that other countries recognize the concept of dual citizenship, recognized us as ex-pats returning home.

Fast forward till I (the oldest) reached majority. I contacted the Consulate of our birth country to ask how to manage things like passports, registering to vote, etc. The Consul told me that if someone in authority asked if I were an American citizen, to say Yes, but not to volunteer anything else unless asked specifically; they would continue to recognize me as a citizen until or unless I signed something saying I wasn't. I passed this information on to my siblings.

Okay, on to arbitrary. Each of the four of us applied for a US passport at various times. My sister sent in her application and received her passport a few weeks later, no questions asked. I had to get an affidavit from my mother declaring that she was a US citizen and confirming various dates that she was in residence in the US. One of my brothers had to provide our mother's school records, which luckily the city still had from the 40's. And my other brother had to get help from his Congressman. Each of us had been acknowledged as US citizens prior and had lived in the US for over a decade, since childhood, before our applications were submitted.

Arbitrary happens...

Arbitarary because YOU did not know the rues and expected the person doing the passports to know the rules. Often they do not and since that does no tmean they shouldn't answer, they simply make things up. This is a training proble, it is an issue you need to be aware an dan issue you need to insist on fair treatment about.

Start by getting the instructions for anything you are doing and rading them carefully. So far in my family of three immigrants...

1. DMV told one son, but not the other, they needed his "marriage certificate" because he was a K-2.

2. The DMV told one son, but not the other, that he needed an SSN for a drivers license (not in Vermont) The same clerk, after being corrected by a supervisor, told the same bad information to another immigrant just a few minutes later while we were within hearing distance! Can you guess how THAT turned out?

3. SS office told one son with a green card, but not the other, that they needed to see his VISA! NO they don't, he has a green card!

4. The passport office office told us we needed permission from the birth father for one son to get a US passport. OR a divorce certificate allowing my wife to get him a passport. This was at the US passport office, NOT the post office.

5.The DMV told one son but not the other that he could have a four year drivers license even though he had a two year green card. I insisted this was not possible, the law only allows the issuance of the license for as long as their authorization in the USA. THEY had told me this when the first son got his license. I showed them in the law. The clerk insisted, INSISTED they "no longer do it that way" and issued him a license for four years. When his two year green card expired they sent a revocation of his license and he had to take the test over again after showing his extension letter!!!!!!!! Nice surprise..."oh by the way, your drivers license is no good as of 3 weeks AGO" Since the license had "expired" he could not just renew it, he had to take the driving test again!

6. My wife was told her green card was not adequate to prove eligibility for employment. She needed an EAD.

7. my wife was told IN WRITING she had to be a citizen for student aid and that her request for an education grant was denied. But the same day another letter arrived telling her she was issued a grant for her education from the same organization (VSAC) This was also after she had received several other student grants.

And you have to understand our case has had NO problems compared to some people. In every one of these cases I KNEW what I needed, I HAD the proper documentation and references to their OWN rules with me and corrected each by speaking with a supervisor.

[COSMOPOLITAN 1 0]

Dealing with Consulates/Embassies of any country is really tough, no matter where you are. I had my fair amount of pain dealing with the German Embassy in my "original" country.

Anyway, coming back to your issue: Does your daughter hold a passport of her country of birth and is that country participating in the visa waiver program? If yes, it might make sense if you come to the US and directly deal with the passport agency here in the US. Take all documents that you provided so far with you to the passport agency. Hopefully they will be more helpful than the current embassy/consulate you are dealing with.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My daughter was born in North West Africa, I do not want her to get the local passport first, because in this case this document will be

predominant during all her life and even in that eventual case, we would be obliged to apply for her a U.S. visa (with all that implies).

Believe me I thought about all the possibilities and I almost believe that the consulate knows that I am stuck and possibly that's why they make it complicated for me hoping that I will give up (I'm speculating).

I may be a little paranoid but this stressful situation that we are subjected to has been going on for more than a year...

So I complained to some hight admnistrations in Washington DC.

Thanks

[nwctzn 55]

My daughter was born in North West Africa, I do not want her to get the local passport first, because in this case this document will be

predominant during all her life and even in that eventual case, we would be obliged to apply for her a U.S. visa (with all that implies).

Believe me I thought about all the possibilities and I almost believe that the consulate knows that I am stuck and possibly that's why they make it complicated for me hoping that I will give up (I'm speculating).

I may be a little paranoid but this stressful situation that we are subjected to has been going on for more than a year...

So I complained to some hight admnistrations in Washington DC.

Thanks

But she can get a French Passport, right? If yes, she will be able to come to the US for at least three months under the visa waiver program and you can straighten out everything with the Passport Agency / Department of State in that time frame.

--

Edited May 14, 2012 by nwctzn

[COSMOPOLITAN 1 0]

But she can get a French Passport, right? If yes, she will be able to come to the US for at least three months under the visa waiver program and you can straighten out everything with the Passport Agency / Department of State in that time frame.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Thank you Sir for your quick reply

Do not you think that I would have used this solution if it had been possible? Nice from you to continue to carry some interest on my boring case.

[COSMOPOLITAN 1 0]

Uncooperative Consulate!!!

Hello all,

I renewed my passport abroad a year ago I was contacted by the U.S. Consulate ,my new one is ready.

Now I live in country located in Europe and find myself unable to go to the consulate to pick it up (1800 miles from my new home).

would there be a way to transfer that passport in consulate closest to my home: Geneva in Switzerland or Lyon in France?

View PostA&B, on 12 May 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Have you contacted the US Consulate?

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I sent an email 2 hours ago to the consulate explaining the situation and suggesting them to transfer my new passport to a closer U.S.(at my own expenses) in consulate in France or Switzerland (less than 120 miles from my new home).

They answered me "Just take it here yourself or send someone with a written document to replace you and pick it up.

No sense and with no desire to be wise or to help, my passport will be still as distant

[nwctzn 55]

Thank you Sir for your quick reply

Do not you think that I would have used this solution if it had been possible? Nice from you to continue to carry some interest on my boring case.

Your case is not boring, in no way. Please keep us posted. Hope it works out and you can straighten things out with the consulate / Department of State.

--

Edited May 14, 2012 by nwctzn

[COSMOPOLITAN 1 0]

Arbitarary because YOU did not know the rues and expected the person doing the passports to know the rules. Often they do not and since that does no tmean they shouldn't answer, they simply make things up. This is a training proble, it is an issue you need to be aware an dan issue you need to insist on fair treatment about.

Start by getting the instructions for anything you are doing and rading them carefully. So far in my family of three immigrants...

1. DMV told one son, but not the other, they needed his "marriage certificate" because he was a K-2.

2. The DMV told one son, but not the other, that he needed an SSN for a drivers license (not in Vermont) The same clerk, after being corrected by a supervisor, told the same bad information to another immigrant just a few minutes later while we were within hearing distance! Can you guess how THAT turned out?

3. SS office told one son with a green card, but not the other, that they needed to see his VISA! NO they don't, he has a green card!

4. The passport office office told us we needed permission from the birth father for one son to get a US passport. OR a divorce certificate allowing my wife to get him a passport. This was at the US passport office, NOT the post office.

5.The DMV told one son but not the other that he could have a four year drivers license even though he had a two year green card. I insisted this was not possible, the law only allows the issuance of the license for as long as their authorization in the USA. THEY had told me this when the first son got his license. I showed them in the law. The clerk insisted, INSISTED they "no longer do it that way" and issued him a license for four years. When his two year green card expired they sent a revocation of his license and he had to take the test over again after showing his extension letter!!!!!!!! Nice surprise..."oh by the way, your drivers license is no good as of 3 weeks AGO" Since the license had "expired" he could not just renew it, he had to take the driving test again!

6. My wife was told her green card was not adequate to prove eligibility for employment. She needed an EAD.

7. my wife was told IN WRITING she had to be a citizen for student aid and that her request for an education grant was denied. But the same day another letter arrived telling her she was issued a grant for her education from the same organization (VSAC) This was also after she had received several other student grants.

And you have to understand our case has had NO problems compared to some people. In every one of these cases I KNEW what I needed, I HAD the proper documentation and references to their OWN rules with me and corrected each by speaking with a supervisor.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hello

Your case is indeed more complicated than ours, but the fact of being in the U.S. had been facilitating finding soultions.

Thank you for your reply

[COSMOPOLITAN 1 0]

Arbitarary because YOU did not know the rues and expected the person doing the passports to know the rules. Often they do not and since that does no tmean they shouldn't answer, they simply make things up. This is a training proble, it is an issue you need to be aware an dan issue you need to insist on fair treatment about.

Start by getting the instructions for anything you are doing and rading them carefully. So far in my family of three immigrants...

1. DMV told one son, but not the other, they needed his "marriage certificate" because he was a K-2.

2. The DMV told one son, but not the other, that he needed an SSN for a drivers license (not in Vermont) The same clerk, after being corrected by a supervisor, told the same bad information to another immigrant just a few minutes later while we were within hearing distance! Can you guess how THAT turned out?

3. SS office told one son with a green card, but not the other, that they needed to see his VISA! NO they don't, he has a green card!

4. The passport office office told us we needed permission from the birth father for one son to get a US passport. OR a divorce certificate allowing my wife to get him a passport. This was at the US passport office, NOT the post office.

5.The DMV told one son but not the other that he could have a four year drivers license even though he had a two year green card. I insisted this was not possible, the law only allows the issuance of the license for as long as their authorization in the USA. THEY had told me this when the first son got his license. I showed them in the law. The clerk insisted, INSISTED they "no longer do it that way" and issued him a license for four years. When his two year green card expired they sent a revocation of his license and he had to take the test over again after showing his extension letter!!!!!!!! Nice surprise..."oh by the way, your drivers license is no good as of 3 weeks AGO" Since the license had "expired" he could not just renew it, he had to take the driving test again!

6. My wife was told her green card was not adequate to prove eligibility for employment. She needed an EAD.

7. my wife was told IN WRITING she had to be a citizen for student aid and that her request for an education grant was denied. But the same day another letter arrived telling her she was issued a grant for her education from the same organization (VSAC) This was also after she had received several other student grants.

And you have to understand our case has had NO problems compared to some people. In every one of these cases I KNEW what I needed, I HAD the proper documentation and references to their OWN rules with me and corrected each by speaking with a supervisor.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As you advised, before goint to the U.S. consulate, I got well informed on my right and duty to obtain American citizenship has my daughter.

and again my case is very simple and obvious

That is what the law says : 7 FAM 1131.2 Prerequisites for transmitting U.S. Citizenship since 1790: (1) At least one natural parent must have been a U.S. Citizen when the child was born.

TL CON-68 ;04-01998 : The U.S. Citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States for no less than 5 years when the child was born.

Here is a non-exhaustive list of the official documents I sent them :

------------Primary proofs of evidences:

1 - Transcript of schedule of work from SSA; 1996,97,98,99 and 2000

2 - Copies of Tax return that I still had in my possession, 1999 and 2000

3 - Copy of my Florida Identification issued in 1996

4 - Copy of my first work permit issued by the INS office in F.L. In 1996

5 - Copy of my F.L .driver license issued in 1997.

6- My U.S. Passport showing that I was in the U.S. Until April 2002

-----------Secondary proofs of evidences

1 - A contract and schedule of payments under my name from a nationwide landlord company stating that I have lived in the same Apt during 4 years and 8 months

2 - Several banking and financial documents from 1996 to 2002.

3 – Many utilities paid bills, electricity, natural gas, phone...

This did not prevent us from this consulate to violate the current regulations.

thank you