A question about marriage and crossing the border...

[Marilyn. 340]

the OP explained why here....

We don't really like the K1 or the K3 visas (for a number of reasons, one of which being that she has to spend several months or longer unemployable while within the country). The IR1/CR1 is more to our liking, depsite the fact we'd be seperated and she'd have to go back to Canada after the wedding. The thing we're looking at is the fact that she'd immediately be a permanent resident and able to work once everything was finished processing.

[Tim and Bethanie 1]

Any easy way to solve this/make yourself feel better at least is to simply have your fiancee explain she is coming on a visit and do not ellaborate unless ask to. The fact is you can not say for sure you are going to be marrying once she arrives, you have obviously thought about it but there is no guarantee that you will, is there? As the old saying goes, "sh*t happens", so maybe you wont marry at all . Soooooo you aren't really lying if you don't tell them you are definetly getting married, there are no guarantees in life. I agree it is not illegal to marry in the U.S if it were they wouldn't let you do it in the first place without a visa.

[homesick_american 1]

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh OK. I give up; though for my own curiosity I'd love a definitive answer to this cos none of this sounds quite right.

I'll file this away with "Why are we here" and "why won't men ask for directions" on the shelf of "Life's Great Questions."

[derekkj 0]

We don't really like the K1 or the K3 visas (for a number of reasons, one of which being that she has to spend several months or longer unemployable while within the country). The IR1/CR1 is more to our liking, depsite the fact we'd be seperated and she'd have to go back to Canada after the wedding. The thing we're looking at is the fact that she'd immediately be a permanent resident and able to work once everything was finished processing.

Derek and I did exactly what DeadPoolX is considering for exactly the same reasons. We just couldn't afford to have him unemployed for as long as it would take to get the AOS. So Derek crossed the border, we got married in Vermont by a JP and he returned home 2 days later. We filed our IR1/CR1 a few days later and he finally got approved less than a year later.

I can understand how homesick_american is (mis)reading the USCIS instructions (must be the same people who write the tax codes ), but as far as I know Canadians don't need "tourist visas" to cross the border, so that's a moot issue for them anyway. As far as other countries, like Yodrak, Kezzie, and Marilyn have already stated, as long as the fiance is planning to return to their home country after the wedding, I don't think it's illegal to cross the border, get married and then return home. Their intentions are good and they are not attempting to circumnavigate any laws or stay here illegally.

That being said, like Macburt, Derek did not lie to the border guard and didn't offer too much information either. He simply said he was going to Vermont for a wedding. I concur that your fiance should also bring as much evidence as she can that she is indeed returning afterwards. If you are still unsure, you may also want to call the border crossing and see what they say.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Okay, this is all GREAT news!

Now I know my fiancee and I CAN get married within the United States without the use of a K1 visa. Of course, my fiancee will have to bring a number of documents to prove she's returning to Canada. She'd also have to leave the U.S. after the wedding, but that'd be a (legal) necessity in order for us to start filing the IR1/CR1. As I've said before, I don't want to break any laws doing this.

Thanks for all the responses, and information!

[zyggy 9]

Okay, this is all GREAT news!

Now I know my fiancee and I CAN get married within the United States without the use of a K1 visa. Of course, my fiancee will have to bring a number of documents to prove she's returning to Canada. She'd also have to leave the U.S. after the wedding, but that'd be a (legal) necessity in order for us to start filing the IR1/CR1. As I've said before, I don't want to break any laws doing this.

Thanks for all the responses, and information!

I am a former INS Immigration Inspector (now CBP)...

You need to be aware of the following:

1) Even if you all the proof in the world of what you believe means that you have the intention to return to Canada, realize that there are little ties that you could subsequently break if you have the intention of entering and staying in the US when you get married... because of this, the only proof of your intention is what is in your mind and heart... your demeanor, the answers you give to the questions that are asked, etc. go a long way in how the CBP officer is going to react in their redading of what your true intentions are. Be aware that even if you do everything right, you can still be denied entry to the US ... the reason for this is that the the Immigration and Naturalization Act is written such that no alien is permitted entry into the US unless they prove to the satisfaction of the CBP officer that they have no intention of immigrating to the US and will leave by the time their period of authorized stay ends.

A warning... you could be placed through a pretty rigorous interrogation.. don't take it personally.. it's CBP's way of determining what your true intentions are. As long as you are truthful and answer all their questions honestly, you should get out the other side... I can't say this enough... Be honest and truthful in all your dealings with CBP...

I would not be planning any big extravagant event.. it would be a shame if you were not permitted to be there by CBP...

2) Be sure you answer all questions truthfully... answer only what is asked.. but divulge anything that a normal person could be reasonable the answer would be if asked.. failure to divulge key information could be interpreted as a material misrepresentation which results in a permanent ban on entering the US... the worst immigration sin there is is to lie...

For example, calling your fiancee a boyfriend is one example of how something could be defined as a material misrepresentation. Both terms have specific meanings associated with them. Answering a question with one where it should have been the other could have resulted in a different decision in respect to your eligibility for entry to an officer.

3) Yodrak... a Canadian cannot be issued a B visa at any time as Canadians are permitted entry to the US without visa... this is not the same as VWP where the US has chosen to waive the visa requirement. By treaty there is no visa requirement for Citizens of Canada to be able to go to the POE and request entry to the US.

If it makes you feel better bring all the evidence you wish, but in reality its going to be a ####### shoot. I believe that you should take a good hard look at your wedding plans and see how they will be effected if one half of the couple is not permitted to enter the US... No one can tell you if you will be sucessful or not, because it all depends on the CBP officer that you get at primary inspection and the officers that you get at secondary inspection...

Good luck.. because luck is what you will need..

Edited October 4, 2006 by zyggy

[DeadPoolX 9]

A two-part question then...

I'm visiting my fiancee (and her family) this Christmas. When the Canadian agents at the airport ask me what the nature of my trip is ("business or pleasure?") and I tell them "pleasure" and they ask more about it, do I divulge I'm going to see my fiancee? Would that keep me out of Canada?

On the second half of the trip, my fiancee and I are headed down to the U.S. to be with my family. I shouldn't have a problem getting through customs; however, when they ask my fiancee the same questions the Canadian customs agents asked me, what should she say? If she says she's visiting her fiance's family, would that keep her out of the United States?

I don't want to lie when crossing the border. Neither does my fiancee. However, we also don't want to be barred from seeing each other or have our vacation plans ruined this winter. So what do we do?

[riblet 0]

Almost all of the advice given so far applies in exactly the same way to visiting (either you or your fiancee - to Canada or the U.S.). There is no guarantee but as long as you have evidence of your continued residence in your own country you will probably be okay.

I personally refused to cross the border with my husband for over a year b/c we had a lot more trouble when we did so, but in August he came down with me for a vacation - he brought a letter from his employer that he had to be back at work on a specific day. We were questioned for several minutes, but then the border guard said we were doing exactly what we were supposed to and let us in. Hope this helps.

A two-part question then...

I'm visiting my fiancee (and her family) this Christmas. When the Canadian agents at the airport ask me what the nature of my trip is ("business or pleasure?") and I tell them "pleasure" and they ask more about it, do I divulge I'm going to see my fiancee? Would that keep me out of Canada?

On the second half of the trip, my fiancee and I are headed down to the U.S. to be with my family. I shouldn't have a problem getting through customs; however, when they ask my fiancee the same questions the Canadian customs agents asked me, what should she say? If she says she's visiting her fiance's family, would that keep her out of the United States?

I don't want to lie when crossing the border. Neither does my fiancee. However, we also don't want to be barred from seeing each other or have our vacation plans ruined this winter. So what do we do?

[Yodrak 7]

zyggy,

Thanks, so the 1st of the 2 alternatives I postulated would be the outcome of a K visa application (in Canada) - the consulate would simply deny the visa on the basis that it isn't applicable to the purpose of the visit, and no alternative visa would be issued because no visa is required for that purpose.

Yodrak

....

3) Yodrak... a Canadian cannot be issued a B visa at any time as Canadians are permitted entry to the US without visa... this is not the same as VWP where the US has chosen to waive the visa requirement. By treaty there is no visa requirement for Citizens of Canada to be able to go to the POE and request entry to the US.

......

[boboroad 0]

We told the truth, look at our timeline. I am not suggesting to lie, only supply them with enough information to cross. It is legal for her to cross now. Once married, the rules change.

[MPGGPM 0]

A two-part question then...

I'm visiting my fiancee (and her family) this Christmas. When the Canadian agents at the airport ask me what the nature of my trip is ("business or pleasure?") and I tell them "pleasure" and they ask more about it, do I divulge I'm going to see my fiancee? Would that keep me out of Canada?

On the second half of the trip, my fiancee and I are headed down to the U.S. to be with my family. I shouldn't have a problem getting through customs; however, when they ask my fiancee the same questions the Canadian customs agents asked me, what should she say? If she says she's visiting her fiance's family, would that keep her out of the United States?

I don't want to lie when crossing the border. Neither does my fiancee. However, we also don't want to be barred from seeing each other or have our vacation plans ruined this winter. So what do we do?

Don't lie....you'll be in a heck of lot worse predicament if you get caught.

My wife comes to visit me during this process all the way from Eastern Europe, at about $1,000 a pop. It would be devastating to me if she ever got turned back and I couldn't see her after being separated for several months during the AOS process. It IS an awful prospect......and I would imagine tough for anyone to face.

But at the same time, I have made it clear to my wife each time she has come here to see me...to never lie. I have told her to be honest no matter what, because bottom line, I'd rather be separated from her for a few more months......than face the prospect of not being able to be with her longer, because she ended up lying and getting caught in one...at the POE.

Yeah....having your plans be ruined, and being separated from your fiancee for longer would be hard, but you have to consider the difficult consequences which would be FAR worse if you/she were caught lying while trying to enter.

You have to weigh them against each other and I am sure you will come to the conclusion about which one would be worse.

If it makes you feel better...although no guarantee (and your fiancee and you should be prepared with documents etc)......they might not even ask any questions regarding your exact plans...and chances are they may just ask the usual "How long will you stay?"....and "Are you visiting for business or pleasure?"...etc..

As others have said...be prepared...but don't tell them any more than what they ask.

[Yodrak 7]

DeadPoolX,

In the case of closed-ended questions, divulge what the question asks for, nothing more and nothing less.

Be careful with open-ended questions and heed zyggy's guidance - say as much as a 'typical' person would be expected to say without mis-representing.

Yodrak

A two-part question then...

I'm visiting my fiancee (and her family) this Christmas. When the Canadian agents at the airport ask me what the nature of my trip is ("business or pleasure?") and I tell them "pleasure" and they ask more about it, do I divulge I'm going to see my fiancee? Would that keep me out of Canada?

On the second half of the trip, my fiancee and I are headed down to the U.S. to be with my family. I shouldn't have a problem getting through customs; however, when they ask my fiancee the same questions the Canadian customs agents asked me, what should she say? If she says she's visiting her fiance's family, would that keep her out of the United States?

I don't want to lie when crossing the border. Neither does my fiancee. However, we also don't want to be barred from seeing each other or have our vacation plans ruined this winter. So what do we do?

Edited October 4, 2006 by Yodrak

[zyggy 9]

A two-part question then...

I'm visiting my fiancee (and her family) this Christmas. When the Canadian agents at the airport ask me what the nature of my trip is ("business or pleasure?") and I tell them "pleasure" and they ask more about it, do I divulge I'm going to see my fiancee? Would that keep me out of Canada?

On the second half of the trip, my fiancee and I are headed down to the U.S. to be with my family. I shouldn't have a problem getting through customs; however, when they ask my fiancee the same questions the Canadian customs agents asked me, what should she say? If she says she's visiting her fiance's family, would that keep her out of the United States?

I don't want to lie when crossing the border. Neither does my fiancee. However, we also don't want to be barred from seeing each other or have our vacation plans ruined this winter. So what do we do?

I can't speak to what the Canadian BPA would do.. but as a whole, they have been a lot more lenient on allowing SO's entry to visit...

On the US... Maybe.. the course of your relationship is creating a bond that makes it more and more likely that you are a risk for overstaying your period of authorized stay. A boyfriend carries a different kind of perceived bond that a fiancee has and lastly a husband has. The more of a bond that you have to the US.. the less you have to Canada. The fact that you are travelling together could make things worse... or better as they can now question you as well...

The answer is yes.. having a fiancee in the US brings greater risk of denial of entry. Entering for the purpose of marrying a USC I would say would bring an almost automatic denial if it came out... But stranger things have happened...

Edit to previous post

2) Be sure you answer all questions truthfully... answer only what is asked.. but divulge anything that a normal person could be reasonable the answer would be if asked.. failure to divulge key information could be interpreted as a material misrepresentation which results in a permanent ban on entering the US... the worst immigration sin there is is to lie...

Should be

Be sure you answer all questions truthfully... answer only what is asked.. but divulge anything that a normal person would be expected to answer.. failure to divulge key information could be interpreted as a material misrepresentation which results in a permanent ban on entering the US... the worst immigration sin there is is to lie...

I really need to read over my posts ... grumble...

Edited October 5, 2006 by zyggy

[DeadPoolX 9]

I can't speak to what the Canadian BPA would do.. but as a whole, they have been a lot more lenient on allowing SO's entry to visit...

Okay, that's good to know. I only want to visit my fiancee and her family. I have NO intention of marrying her while I am in Canada. I would also bring whatever proof I can as a backup method of proving that I do intend to return to the United States after my visit.

On the US... Maybe.. the course of your relationship is creating a bond that makes it more and more likely that you are a risk for overstaying your period of authorized stay. A boyfriend carries a different kind of perceived bond that a fiancee has and lastly a husband has. The more of a bond that you have to the US.. the less you have to Canada. The fact that you are travelling together could make things worse... or better as they can now question you as well...

The answer is yes.. having a fiancee in the US brings greater risk of denial of entry. Entering for the purpose of marrying a USC I would say would bring an almost automatic denial if it came out... But stranger things have happened...

Well, my fiancee is NOT entering with the intent to marry me. We just want to have a trip together in the U.S. for New Years. If she brought proof (i.e. flight itinerary, pay stubs, letter of employment, apartment contract, etc.) that she's headed back to Canada after her stay with me, would that enable us to make it through unscathed? Or is it really a crapshoot?

Why would traveling together possibly be worse (or better)? How would traveling together even make a difference? We wouldn't go up to the same customs agent at the same time, and I doubt we'd even be in the same line (aren't there different lines for citizens coming back to their home country and visitors?)

Be sure you answer all questions truthfully... answer only what is asked.. but divulge anything that a normal person would be expected to answer.. failure to divulge key information could be interpreted as a material misrepresentation which results in a permanent ban on entering the US... the worst immigration sin there is is to lie...

So it wouldn't work at customs for us to refer to each other as "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" then, huh? Yes, I know that, according to what you wrote, that would be a "failure to divulge key information, which could be interpreted as a material misrepresentation." But the real question is: how would they know? I really don't advocate spinning the truth, but just from looking at us, there's no way customs could tell if we're boyfriend/girlfriend or fiance/fiancee without us telling them. In fact, unless they asked, they wouldn't know of any relationship at all!

I'm NOT saying we WOULD do that. I'm just asking, HOW would customs KNOW the difference unless told? They don't have some "magic relationship reader" at hand or whatever.

Well...unless they specifically ask about our relationship, then we won't mention it. Otherwise, the nature of our trip is a "vacation." That's not lying. It is a vacation. My vacation to Canada and her vacation to the United States. If they specifically ask relationship-related questions, then we'll have to say something about visiting and/or traveling with our "fiance/fiancee." I just hope being honest and doing the "right thing" doesn't mess everything up.

[Yodrak 7]

DeadPoolX,

None of that stuff is "proof" that she will go back to Canada after her stay. All of those 'ties' can be ended with a phone call, and a lot of people do exactly that.

I think you're confusing Customs with Immigration, and you and she can most certainly go through the same line together.

Immigration officers are probably pretty well trained to 'read' people's speech and behaviours. The words given in answer to many questions may not be of interest, it's the person's speech and behavior in reaction to the question that is of interest. And the immigration officer does not have to 'know' - it's what they believe that will determine.

Ties do not go to the runner.

Yodrak

Well, my fiancee is NOT entering with the intent to marry me. We just want to have a trip together in the U.S. for New Years. If she brought proof (i.e. flight itinerary, pay stubs, letter of employment, apartment contract, etc.) that she's headed back to Canada after her stay with me, would that enable us to make it through unscathed? Or is it really a crapshoot?

Why would traveling together possibly be worse (or better)? How would traveling together even make a difference? We wouldn't go up to the same customs agent at the same time, and I doubt we'd even be in the same line (aren't there different lines for citizens coming back to their home country and visitors?)

So it wouldn't work at customs for us to refer to each other as "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" then, huh? Yes, I know that, according to what you wrote, that would be a "failure to divulge key information, which could be interpreted as a material misrepresentation." But the real question is: how would they know? I really don't advocate spinning the truth, but just from looking at us, there's no way customs could tell if we're boyfriend/girlfriend or fiance/fiancee without us telling them. In fact, unless they asked, they wouldn't know of any relationship at all!

I'm NOT saying we WOULD do that. I'm just asking, HOW would customs KNOW the difference unless told? They don't have some "magic relationship reader" at hand or whatever.

...

Edited October 5, 2006 by Yodrak