Just starting the naturalization process

[NoraNNick 2]

Hello all -- Nick (UK) and Nora (US) here. Nick's just starting the naturalization process -- has been a permanent res. for about 3 years now. Have been married since Dec. 04 -- came on K1 visa. 6 years and two kids later, looking into making next big step. Would make things easier. We are in Ohio -- just recently relocated from Wisconsin... wondering if there's anyone else in north east ohio area? From the stuff posted here, it pretty much looks like we have to send all the same paperwork that we had to send for visa and green card (which we have all together), but it looks pretty straight forward. How is it going for everyone? Will probably post questions as they come along. Just wanted to introduce ourselves and say hello.

Nick and Nora

[w8inglongtime 29]

Hello all -- Nick (UK) and Nora (US) here. Nick's just starting the naturalization process -- has been a permanent res. for about 3 years now. Have been married since Dec. 04 -- came on K1 visa. 6 years and two kids later, looking into making next big step. Would make things easier. We are in Ohio -- just recently relocated from Wisconsin... wondering if there's anyone else in north east ohio area? From the stuff posted here, it pretty much looks like we have to send all the same paperwork that we had to send for visa and green card (which we have all together), but it looks pretty straight forward. How is it going for everyone? Will probably post questions as they come along. Just wanted to introduce ourselves and say hello.

Nick and Nora

Welcome to VJ NoraNick. There are a lot of people on this forum with knowledge about the process. The N-400 is the easiest step so you will not need all the stuff you had to send for the visa and greencard. It seems you're applying based on marriege so all you need to prove is that you're still married and don't owe uncle Sam. Good luck

Edited July 15, 2011 by w8inglongtime

[NickD 202]

Information you need for marriage evidence is under the http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=480ccac09aa5d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=db029c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

website entitled, "Download Document Checklist, Current Fees, Naturalization Eligibility Worksheet (1KB PDF)"

Unfortunately, not meeting an experienced board, but just an individual officer, and under the additional evidence, can only guess if that IO can distinguish the legal difference between an OR or an AND.

Could assume they mean OR when you send in your application, but assume AND and bring in all those original documents for your interview to save another trip and delay. From our experience, apparently their is no requirement that IO's read all of the attachments and latest instructions. So you get a decision cannot be made at this time. Like bringing in a total redundant state ID card or proof you paid all of your traffic fines. Not even specified in the M-476 manual, instructions, or the attachments.

In our experience, had an IO that didn't even want to see our original evidence, then another that wanted to see all of it, plus asking for a completely worthless joint utility bill as additional evidence. Can't argue, they have the power of life or death, but we were prepared. Any utility company doesn't give a damn whose name is on the bill, they go after the property owner. So Whatever name you give them, they will put down. But yet an IO wanted to see that, surprised, we had one.

Thing is, you just don't know what kind of IO you will get and whether they got up on the wrong side of bed that morning or not. So best to be prepared for the worse.

You would love to ask, how in the hell do you think we got that green card in the first place in regards to US citizenship of the petitioning sponsor or previous marriages. But don't dare state that, just smile and show it.

[v333k 59]

Hi NickNNora - welcome to VJ!!!

If you are thinking about applying now, make sure you comply with the 3 month waiting rule once you've relocated and the new location that is serviced by a different district office. The M-476 guide has a section that talks about it so make sure you go over it and understand it.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

From the stuff posted here, it pretty much looks like we have to send all the same paperwork that we had to send for visa and green card (which we have all together), but it looks pretty straight forward.

You need the printed out form, a copy of your Green Green Card, 2 passport sized photos, your passport, and a set of tax transcripts. How does that even remotely--I mean in a got've-got-to-be-sh*tting-me kinda way--compare to any immigration process you went through so far?

[NoraNNick 2]

You need the printed out form, a copy of your Green Green Card, 2 passport sized photos, your passport, and a set of tax transcripts. How does that even remotely--I mean in a got've-got-to-be-sh*tting-me kinda way--compare to any immigration process you went through so far?

okay bob, sorry you got up on the wrong side of the bed, but the checklist i saw said i should send stuff to prove we were married, and the more the better. whatever. glad it looks easier, but you don't have to be so rude about it.

[NoraNNick 2]

Hi NickNNora - welcome to VJ!!!

If you are thinking about applying now, make sure you comply with the 3 month waiting rule once you've relocated and the new location that is serviced by a different district office. The M-476 guide has a section that talks about it so make sure you go over it and understand it.

Thanks -- we actually moved here last year. i"ll be sure to check that section out -- we updated on new address, but will make sure i didnt' miss anything anyway.

[NoraNNick 2]

Information you need for marriage evidence is under the http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=480ccac09aa5d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=db029c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

website entitled, "Download Document Checklist, Current Fees, Naturalization Eligibility Worksheet (1KB PDF)"

Unfortunately, not meeting an experienced board, but just an individual officer, and under the additional evidence, can only guess if that IO can distinguish the legal difference between an OR or an AND.

Could assume they mean OR when you send in your application, but assume AND and bring in all those original documents for your interview to save another trip and delay. From our experience, apparently their is no requirement that IO's read all of the attachments and latest instructions. So you get a decision cannot be made at this time. Like bringing in a total redundant state ID card or proof you paid all of your traffic fines. Not even specified in the M-476 manual, instructions, or the attachments.

In our experience, had an IO that didn't even want to see our original evidence, then another that wanted to see all of it, plus asking for a completely worthless joint utility bill as additional evidence. Can't argue, they have the power of life or death, but we were prepared. Any utility company doesn't give a damn whose name is on the bill, they go after the property owner. So Whatever name you give them, they will put down. But yet an IO wanted to see that, surprised, we had one.

Thing is, you just don't know what kind of IO you will get and whether they got up on the wrong side of bed that morning or not. So best to be prepared for the worse.

You would love to ask, how in the hell do you think we got that green card in the first place in regards to US citizenship of the petitioning sponsor or previous marriages. But don't dare state that, just smile and show it.

hey what part of wisconsin are u from? We were in the Eau Claire area... actually only an hour and a half away from st. paul, so we went to st. paul too. our experience was not difficult at all -- sorry you had such a frustrating experience!

Edited July 16, 2011 by NoraNNick

[NickD 202]

hey what part of wisconsin are u from? We were in the Eau Claire area... actually only an hour and a half away from st. paul, so we went to st. paul too. our experience was not difficult at all -- sorry you had such a frustrating experience!

Marshfield, our AOS at St. Paul was wonderful, but encountered a "misplaced" application with my wife, and a "miscommunication" with my stepdaughter that caused some delay. But nothing Feingold or Kolh couldn't handle.

They have a new office manager now, even giving some same day oaths, you may be lucky. And they do have some very nice IO's, hope you are lucky there too.

Think JustBob is thinking about the five year, need practically nothing for that, my stepdaughter just went through that. Application, check, copy of both sides of her green card, and that was about it. Did get her four years of tax transcripts just in case, her IO didn't want to see that. But he made an issue as to whether she paid her traffic fines when she was a minor. One was 86 the other was 52 bucks, that caused her delay. But then they sent us a letter asking for proof she never had her drivers' license suspended and to answer battery charges when she was 17 months old. That was absurd to say the least.

With marriage a quite a bit more, marriage certificate, proof of spouses US citizenship, all of your prior marriage divorce papers, both of you, if any, three years of transcripts, joint lease or home ownership, vehicle joint ownership, bank accounts, insurance, just a lot of proof you are paying bills together kind of thing for a happy marriage. I think they got off that joint utility bill kick, but never know whats' next. Also require a state ID now, crazy since you need a green card to get that in Wisconsin.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

okay bob, sorry you got up on the wrong side of the bed, but the checklist i saw said i should send stuff to prove we were married, and the more the better. whatever. glad it looks easier, but you don't have to be so rude about it.

No idea what checklist you are referring to; I haven't found one in all my time searching that subject that would suggest such nonsense, but, hey . . . you may have found such a guide somewhere and of course you are welcome to send as much paperwork as you like to them.

As Jesus said: I can guide the blind but not if they run in the other direction.

Looks like you don't need any advice from people who have walked the walk; just send them everything you have and please forgive me for trying to open you eyes.

Addendum:

Before clicking the ADD REPLY button I made sure that the forces or hackers haven't changed the VJ Guide to naturalization and--what a relief--they haven't. You might want to read that guide; it's a pretty good one.

[NickD 202]

No idea what checklist you are referring to; I haven't found one in all my time searching that subject that would suggest such nonsense, but, hey . . . you may have found such a guide somewhere and of course you are welcome to send as much paperwork as you like to them.

As Jesus said: I can guide the blind but not if they run in the other direction.

Looks like you don't need any advice from people who have walked the walk; just send them everything you have and please forgive me for trying to open you eyes.

Addendum:

Before clicking the ADD REPLY button I made sure that the forces or hackers haven't changed the VJ Guide to naturalization and--what a relief--they haven't. You might want to read that guide; it's a pretty good one.

Still at the mercy of ONE IO that has the power of life or death over you. Maybe not that bad, but certainly extra delays and additional trips. Look at this as a game, you want evidence, we have evidence.

You show me anything that says you need a worthless joint utility bill or proof you paid your parking ticket fines as evidence. Granted, this is all IO dependent and the ones we had problems with are evidently immigrants themselves. Also feel that racial and culture background plays a role, but don't want to get into that, a lot easier to submit evidence.

With my wife, certainly considered the five year, a hell of a lot easier, but was so frustrated with the ROC, just wanted to end that relationship. Spent hours at my copying machine making copies, just to get it over with.

But your choice, we had friend ahead of us and learned by their bad experiences, like waiting 15 months for the oath ceremony after the interview. Just read all the posts here from people with similar problems. Granted, not everyone, but your main concern is you.

Still feel the spouse should be able to attend the evidence portion of the interview, and you should be meeting with a board, not just one person.

[NoraNNick 2]

No idea what checklist you are referring to; I haven't found one in all my time searching that subject that would suggest such nonsense, but, hey . . . you may have found such a guide somewhere and of course you are welcome to send as much paperwork as you like to them.

As Jesus said: I can guide the blind but not if they run in the other direction.

Looks like you don't need any advice from people who have walked the walk; just send them everything you have and please forgive me for trying to open you eyes.

Addendum:

Before clicking the ADD REPLY button I made sure that the forces or hackers haven't changed the VJ Guide to naturalization and--what a relief--they haven't. You might want to read that guide; it's a pretty good one.

Bob, I pointed out that you were rude and you still are. this is the list i was referring to, and for the 3 year naturalization process based on marriage to an american citizen, the following was suggested. http://www.visajourney.com/content/naturalization_guide . Perhaps you should follow your own advice and check things before attacking someone who you don't even know.

[NoraNNick 2]

Marshfield, our AOS at St. Paul was wonderful, but encountered a "misplaced" application with my wife, and a "miscommunication" with my stepdaughter that caused some delay. But nothing Feingold or Kolh couldn't handle.

They have a new office manager now, even giving some same day oaths, you may be lucky. And they do have some very nice IO's, hope you are lucky there too.

Think JustBob is thinking about the five year, need practically nothing for that, my stepdaughter just went through that. Application, check, copy of both sides of her green card, and that was about it. Did get her four years of tax transcripts just in case, her IO didn't want to see that. But he made an issue as to whether she paid her traffic fines when she was a minor. One was 86 the other was 52 bucks, that caused her delay. But then they sent us a letter asking for proof she never had her drivers' license suspended and to answer battery charges when she was 17 months old. That was absurd to say the least.

With marriage a quite a bit more, marriage certificate, proof of spouses US citizenship, all of your prior marriage divorce papers, both of you, if any, three years of transcripts, joint lease or home ownership, vehicle joint ownership, bank accounts, insurance, just a lot of proof you are paying bills together kind of thing for a happy marriage. I think they got off that joint utility bill kick, but never know whats' next. Also require a state ID now, crazy since you need a green card to get that in Wisconsin.

Thank Nick -- I don't really think it will be a problem, haven't had any issues so far, so am not worried about it... mostly concerned with how long it will take. its funny what the IO can decide to ask for though, isn't it. I'll send what we have...(tax returns, mortgage, ours and kids birth certs, marriage license, joint bank statements) if they want more, they can ask. Haven't been RFE'd in past, so fingers crossed that we wont be now.

[NickD 202]

Thank Nick -- I don't really think it will be a problem, haven't had any issues so far, so am not worried about it... mostly concerned with how long it will take. its funny what the IO can decide to ask for though, isn't it. I'll send what we have...(tax returns, mortgage, ours and kids birth certs, marriage license, joint bank statements) if they want more, they can ask. Haven't been RFE'd in past, so fingers crossed that we wont be now.

Having kids with your US citizen spouse is extremely great evidence, ha, bring you spouse and the kids along. What makes that an extra long day for me, is the Mall of America, wife and stepdaughter go crazy in there. I would too, if they sold machine tools, car parts, but last time, found Dora the Explorer and Swiper the Fox dolls for my granddaughter. OH MAN!!!

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

Bob, I pointed out that you were rude and you still are. this is the list i was referring to, and for the 3 year naturalization process based on marriage to an american citizen, the following was suggested. http://www.visajourn...alization_guide . Perhaps you should follow your own advice and check things before attacking someone who you don't even know.

I have to apologize. Not for being rude, but for assuming that the Union Jack next to your user name meant that your English comprehension is adequate. As you are trying hard to prove over and over again that it is not the case, I will have to take this in baby steps.

You initially stated that you would have to submit a lot of paperwork for the N-400 referring to you as a married couple. I straight forward replied in my first response that the paperwork for naturalization is not even remotely comparable to any immigration paperwork. In fact, I said, the one and only such proof you will have to submit is the tax transcripts, which you will get easily and free of charge.

You called me rude for being straight forward. Not a problem; I have been called worse when trying to be helpful in my admittedly straight-to-the-point, often ironic kind-of-way.

I the pointed you to the VJ Guide, which you still do not comprehend, and I know now why: it's because of a single, two letter word "or."

If you walk through Central Park at night, and a bad guy puts a gun in your face and says: Give me your wallet or I will shoot you!" then he surely wants your money. You then have a choice to make: either A or B. Either you give him your wallet or he will shoot you and get it himself. But if you give him your wallet, there is no need for him to shoot you as that's all he's after, after all.

Now we transfer this maxim to the situation in question by looking at the VJ Guide.

Under point 4 it states:

4. Documents referring to you and your spouse:

A. Tax returns, bank accounts, leases, mortgages, or birth certificates of children, or

B. Internal Revenue Service (IRS)-certified copies of the income tax forms that you both filed for the past three years, or

C. An IRS tax return transcript for the last three years.

If you recall my initial post, I stated that only tax transcripts are needed. Here you will find proof that the Guide states the very same.

It's either A or B or C.

The tax transcripts are listed as C. So if C, you do not need A and you do not need B.

That's what I've been stating since my first post, but you don't accept my statements nor do you accept the the Guide I've been referring to, the very Guide you are referring to.

When I studied philosophy, I had to take various classes on symbolic logic. It's replacing language with mathematical symbols to remove ambiguity from the equation. For example, if you see a sign in a barber shop that reads "Half off!" it could mean that you get either a full haircut for half the price, or that the barber will only cut off half of your hair. Seriously.

Thus, in the most simplified form possible, the word "or" works as a qualifier. Either A or B. Either A or B or C. Or, in case of the VJ Guide in part 4: either a or B or C. C being the tax transcripts, they alone will meet the requirements of documentation referring to you and your spouse as still being a married couple throughout the time of your residency as an LPR.

So why don't I explain this as thoroughly from the beginning? Because it's a lot of work that it is usually not necessary. I answer questions based on my assumption of comprehension, language and otherwise. Somebody who just got off the boat from, for example, Vietnam, needs to be addressed in a much simpler way as a native English speaker, which I am not. In fact, English is only my third language after Swedish and German. Luckily, I have learned a lot in college, so I am rather confident about my English skills now.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Just Bob