Constitutional Rights are God given to ALL MANKIND

[PlatyPius 5]

If only the Founding Fathers hadn't included the reason for writing #2, eh?

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

These words have been analyzed to death. Ultimately, what these words mean in a more modern phrasing of English are:

"Because it is necessary for a state to be able to provide a militia in case of threat, and citizens are the members of that militia; "the people", in other words Citizens, shall be free to purchase, keep, and if necessary use, firearms."

The backbone of a militia is ordinary citizens. These citizens need to provide their own weapons. If the "threat" is from the Federal government itself, then a "free state" needs to be able to call up a militia. You can't exactly call the Army to protect you from the government, can you? Our country is set up with many checks and balances to guard against tyranny. This is just one of them. An armed populace is a populace that will fight against being subdued by an oppressive federal government.

And for all of you all happy about Amendment #2.....why do you get all upset when people try to use the "well regulated" part? If you keep yelling "no gun control" you're ignoring important words in the same amendment you're hiding behind.

What upsets me is the frequent attempt to use that part to claim that the 2nd Ammendment does not confer gun rights to individuals, but instead is refering to a collective right, thus making it really about police and other government officials having guns. We have a term for a country where only government officials are allowed to have guns: "Police-state."

Oooooh! I know that one! it's where the government doesn't have to play within the bounds of it's own constitution.....where the passing of an act can allow people to be arrested without warrant, held without bail or counsel, tortured, and all without oversight......for the cause of "homeland security". Am I right?

It's a bit of a stretch to go from "well regulated" to "only government officials are allowed to have guns". You have to skip over the fun things like the abortion rights issue "only govenment officials are allowed to have access to reproductive medicine" and other fun issues. Heck let's suspend the vote (hopefully by 2008, right W?) Oh, and round up all the dark skinned people....they're probably muslim terrorists (Sorry Lai, but you know it's true). Hold on......is this NOT the conservatives dream state? Then why so much resistance to the oversight we're allowed by the frigging constitution?

(Scott.....regulation doesn't = police state. Your own church has it's own canonical laws (or "regulations") but they probably don't hand out the jack-boots with the offering plate)

Addressing this one now, I DO agree with regulation to a degree. I fully support background checks, even though they don't stop anyone from owning guns. I can go to 10th and Tibbs in Indy right now and buy any sort of gun I want, completely free of waiting times, background checks, or registration. However, as long as the anti-gun people think something is being done, they tend to remain somewhat quiet. So I say let them have their wait-periods and felony checks.

People are going to kill each other no matter what. Look at England. People are killed there, but hardly anyone owns guns. Knives are popular. The truth though is that if someone wants to kill someone, they'll find a way. Knives, ropes, baseball bats, rocks, a piece of lumber, a sharp stick, a poison dart.... ANYthing almost can be a weapon. The difference in murder rates between countries isn't due to the availability of guns...it's due to the mindset of its people. In that case, America isn't looking too good.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The difference in murder rates between countries isn't due to the availability of guns...it's due to the mindset of its people.

I see. So, the two teens at Columbine High for example, would have managed stabbed as many people to death as they managed to shoot? Wow. I would have sat here forever and thought that not as many people would have died in that and other tragedies like it had it not been for the assailants' easy and ready access to firearms. Thank you so much for correcting my screwed up way of thinking. I'll sleep much better tonight...

Edited September 4, 2006 by ET-US2004

[PlatyPius 5]

They could have killed just as many with a crossbow or a regular bow.....

[Artegal 1]

So Iran is no more dangerous with a Nuclear Bomb? That is since they have the mindset to kill Jews and Americans with conventional bombs--then the reality that they will one day soon have a nuclear bomb makes them no more dangerous later than now?

[PlatyPius 5]

Haven't you been reading???

It's only GUNS that make people dangerous, not bombs.

*Think I'd better go vote in that poll again....*

ROFL

[Henia 11]

Patriot act 2 and 3 come after the next event put on by Bush's:

Executive Order ..10999

Allows the government to take over all modes of transportation

Executive Order ..11000

allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision

Executive Order ..11921

Provides that the President can declare a state of emergency that is not defined, and congress cannot review the action for six months

Senate Bill ..1873

Allows the government to vaccinate you with untested vaccines against your will

The FDA says American do not have the right to know which foods are genetically midified

Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill (HR 1528)

requires you to spy on your neighbors, including wearing a wire, refusal would be punishable by a mandatory prison sentence of at least two years

The government claims the power to seize all financial instruments: currency, gold, silver, and everything else if they deem an emergency exist.

The Patriot Act Premits:

*Secret FBI and Police searches of your home and office

*Secret government wiretaps on your phone, computer and/ or Internet activity

*Secret investigations of you bank records, credit cards, and other financial records

*Secret investigations of your library and book activities

*Secret examinations of your medical records

*The freezing of funds and assests without prior notice or appeal

*The creation of secret "watch list" that ban those named from air and other travel

[PlatyPius 5]

Patriot act 2 and 3 come after the next event put on by Bush's:

Executive Order ..10999

Allows the government to take over all modes of transportation

Executive Order ..11000

allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision

Executive Order ..11921

Provides that the President can declare a state of emergency that is not defined, and congress cannot review the action for six months

Senate Bill ..1873

Allows the government to vaccinate you with untested vaccines against your will

The FDA says American do not have the right to know which foods are genetically midified

Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill (HR 1528)

requires you to spy on your neighbors, including wearing a wire, refusal would be punishable by a mandatory prison sentence of at least two years

The government claims the power to seize all financial instruments: currency, gold, silver, and everything else if they deem an emergency exist.

The Patriot Act Premits:

*Secret FBI and Police searches of your home and office

*Secret government wiretaps on your phone, computer and/ or Internet activity

*Secret investigations of you bank records, credit cards, and other financial records

*Secret investigations of your library and book activities

*Secret examinations of your medical records

*The freezing of funds and assests without prior notice or appeal

*The creation of secret "watch list" that ban those named from air and other travel

While I agree with you, I thought I should provide more detail on some of those....

10999 was created in 1962 by John F. Kennedy. http://www.disastercenter.com/laworder/10999.htm

11000 was also. http://www.disastercenter.com/laworder/11000.htm

11921 - Gerald Ford 1976 http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-11921.htm

Senate Bill 1873 - Full Text @ http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/s1873.html

HR1528 - Full Text @ http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-1528

Patriot Act..... I won't even get into that one. It's BS and should be repealed.

[Henia 11]

Patriot act 2 and 3 come after the next event put on by Bush's:

Executive Order ..10999

Allows the government to take over all modes of transportation

Executive Order ..11000

allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision

Executive Order ..11921

Provides that the President can declare a state of emergency that is not defined, and congress cannot review the action for six months

Senate Bill ..1873

Allows the government to vaccinate you with untested vaccines against your will

The FDA says American do not have the right to know which foods are genetically midified

Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill (HR 1528)

requires you to spy on your neighbors, including wearing a wire, refusal would be punishable by a mandatory prison sentence of at least two years

The government claims the power to seize all financial instruments: currency, gold, silver, and everything else if they deem an emergency exist.

The Patriot Act Premits:

*Secret FBI and Police searches of your home and office

*Secret government wiretaps on your phone, computer and/ or Internet activity

*Secret investigations of you bank records, credit cards, and other financial records

*Secret investigations of your library and book activities

*Secret examinations of your medical records

*The freezing of funds and assests without prior notice or appeal

*The creation of secret "watch list" that ban those named from air and other travel

While I agree with you, I thought I should provide more detail on some of those....

10999 was created in 1962 by John F. Kennedy. http://www.disastercenter.com/laworder/10999.htm

11000 was also. http://www.disastercenter.com/laworder/11000.htm

11921 - Gerald Ford 1976 http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-11921.htm

Senate Bill 1873 - Full Text @ http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2005_cr/s1873.html

HR1528 - Full Text @ http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-1528

Patriot Act..... I won't even get into that one. It's BS and should be repealed.

Thanks Cian for the links, checking them now (snaps)

[ILIKEALLCAPS 0]

If only the Founding Fathers hadn't included the reason for writing #2, eh?

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

These words have been analyzed to death. Ultimately, what these words mean in a more modern phrasing of English are:

"Because it is necessary for a state to be able to provide a militia in case of threat, and citizens are the members of that militia; "the people", in other words Citizens, shall be free to purchase, keep, and if necessary use, firearms."

The backbone of a militia is ordinary citizens. These citizens need to provide their own weapons. If the "threat" is from the Federal government itself, then a "free state" needs to be able to call up a militia. You can't exactly call the Army to protect you from the government, can you? Our country is set up with many checks and balances to guard against tyranny. This is just one of them. An armed populace is a populace that will fight against being subdued by an oppressive federal government.

However, it might also be argued as "We don't really have a standing army, and are likely to be invaded by some nasty superpowers, so it's ok if you keep your weapons because we might need you to help defend the nation."

Which is a big difference from "I have the second amendment right to have a grenade launcher, 43 handguns of various calibers, an uzi, 3 mac-10s, an ar-7, 12 shotguns, a weatherby .640 magnum (for those rogue elephants) 10 other rifles, and ammunition for all of the above.....to defend myself."

I'm all for self-defense. I'm fairly well against arming the paranoid though. There's a whole pile of difference between "Oh, Bob got a bit depressed and went down to his ex-wife's office with a rock and threw it at someone....they might have a contusion" and "Oh, Bob got depressed and went down to his ex-wife's office and shot 8 people before turning the gun on himself." Oddly enough, in neither case was Bob increasing the security of the state.

Are there loopholes in the system? Sure, and there always will be. Only way to not have any loopholes is to be the last living human on the Earth. Is some system better than none? Darn tootin'. Could there be a better way? Most definitely, but Americans are too bloody mulish to give up their rights (unless it's to warrantless searches) to allow for major change.

And by the way...."Red Dawn" was just a movie. Any real invasion (and any possible insurrection) will probably be nuclear. Having a weapon in the closet (under the bed, under the pillow....wherever) won't stop that.

[PlatyPius 5]

Nope, but my Smith & Wesson N-Frame .41 mag w/158 grain hollow-point homeloads will stop any scumbag who tries to break into my house and assault me or those I love. Failing that, the Mossberg 12 gauge riot gun has a pretty large spread...

I agree with limiting access to silly things though, such as grenade launchers, uzis and such. A couple of handguns, a shotgun, and a rifle or two are more than enough for anyone, and that includes "recreational shooters" or hunters.

I grew up in a house with a lot of guns, in case you couldn't guess. Gunsmithing was one of my Dad's hobbies. There were probably 20 handguns and 30 rifles in the house at all times. Most were hung on the wall. Dad was an avid hunter too, bringing home enough to fill our freezer and eat for months. Honestly, there were a lot of houses like that around here. And never a school shooting, accidental shooting, or any such thing.

[ILIKEALLCAPS 0]

Nope, but my Smith & Wesson N-Frame .41 mag w/158 grain hollow-point homeloads will stop any scumbag who tries to break into my house and assault me or those I love. Failing that, the Mossberg 12 gauge riot gun has a pretty large spread...

A secure state starts at home, eh?

There's actually no provision in the second amendment for self-defense. Just something to consider.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So Iran is no more dangerous with a Nuclear Bomb? That is since they have the mindset to kill Jews and Americans with conventional bombs--then the reality that they will one day soon have a nuclear bomb makes them no more dangerous later than now?

Conversely if gun ownership makes for a secure society - you'd think nuclear proliferation would make for a safer world. Can't see too many people agreeing with that

[Artegal 1]

So Iran is no more dangerous with a Nuclear Bomb? That is since they have the mindset to kill Jews and Americans with conventional bombs--then the reality that they will one day soon have a nuclear bomb makes them no more dangerous later than now?

Conversely if gun ownership makes for a secure society - you'd think nuclear proliferation would make for a safer world. Can't see too many people agreeing with that

Actually wasn't that the whole concept of MAD during the Cold War?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So Iran is no more dangerous with a Nuclear Bomb? That is since they have the mindset to kill Jews and Americans with conventional bombs--then the reality that they will one day soon have a nuclear bomb makes them no more dangerous later than now?

Conversely if gun ownership makes for a secure society - you'd think nuclear proliferation would make for a safer world. Can't see too many people agreeing with that

Actually wasn't that the whole concept of MAD during the Cold War?

Pretty much. And there was no nuclear war...

[Ban Hammer 14,294]

Patriot act 2 and 3 come after the next event put on by Bush's:

Executive Order ..10999

Allows the government to take over all modes of transportation

Executive Order ..11000

allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision

Executive Order ..11921

Provides that the President can declare a state of emergency that is not defined, and congress cannot review the action for six months

Senate Bill ..1873

Allows the government to vaccinate you with untested vaccines against your will

The FDA says American do not have the right to know which foods are genetically midified

Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill (HR 1528)

requires you to spy on your neighbors, including wearing a wire, refusal would be punishable by a mandatory prison sentence of at least two years

The government claims the power to seize all financial instruments: currency, gold, silver, and everything else if they deem an emergency exist.

The Patriot Act Premits:

*Secret FBI and Police searches of your home and office

*Secret government wiretaps on your phone, computer and/ or Internet activity

*Secret investigations of you bank records, credit cards, and other financial records

*Secret investigations of your library and book activities

*Secret examinations of your medical records

*The freezing of funds and assests without prior notice or appeal

*The creation of secret "watch list" that ban those named from air and other travel

10999 - happened in ww2. not unusual.

11000 - happened during the great depression

1873 - not news either - happened to me in the military, was given an untested vaccine against anthrax

hr 1528 - didn't pass did it?

search of my office can occur at any time, it's government property.

checking my internet activity, bank records, credit cards, other financial records already occurs due to my job.

check of my library, book activities, medical records - probably happens too.

freezing of funds and assets is not news.......happened to iran when they took over the embassy

yawn