family not present at engagement ceremony

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Thank you michael for your insight, from what you're saying, the consulate is telling people, you cannot have an engagement ceremony during the 1st visit? or else they will flatly deny you, that's kind of farfetched though. But luckytxn just mentioned that he was approved despite having an engagement during the first visit...I guess we will never know what is on the mind of the CO then.

ARe you still going through K-1 or have you decided to switch to a spousal visa?

The wording on the denial slip is usually something like "In contrast to Vietnamese social and cultural norms which mandate a lengthy and careful period of pre-nuptial arrangements ,petitioner and beneficiary became engaged on petitioner's first visit to Vietnam." Another relatively common one is "Petitioner and beneficiary became engaged after petitioner had proposed one or two days before."

They're using the "reasonable person" standard. In other words, would a reasonable person conclude that the relationship was genuine, and not for the purpose of evading immigration law, based on the evidence provided? The consulate's "reasonable person" is a strictly traditional Vietnamese father about 60 years ago.

Ok, the "reasonable person" standard is their excuse. What they are really doing is denying people if they think they've done the bare minimum things they believe they need to do, involving the minimum amount of cash, in order be approved. In other words, does it look like they were working from a checklist they got from an immigration lawyer, since this is what a visa scammer would probably be doing. An immigration lawyer who knew anything about the consulate in HCMC would know that an engagement ceremony was important, so they'd recommend getting it over with on the first trip, saving the evidence of the trip, and filing the petition as soon as the petitioner got back to the US. They'd probably plan a small ceremony at the beneficiary's house, followed by a small party of one or two dozen people.

What the consulate wants to see is ceremony involving one or two dozen people, followed by a party involving one or two hundred. They want to see something that obviously involved a month or two of preparation, and a lot of cash.

[ScottThuy 140]

As was stated, an Dam Hoi is required in HCMC.. to say otherwise is to post dangerous misinformation... Some have gotten away with no engagement ceremony... like hitting the lotto IMO and not something that happens often. I will be surprised if your case is still at HCMC.

as always Jim +1

[kiki92 1]

The wording on the denial slip is usually something like "In contrast to Vietnamese social and cultural norms which mandate a lengthy and careful period of pre-nuptial arrangements ,petitioner and beneficiary became engaged on petitioner's first visit to Vietnam." Another relatively common one is "Petitioner and beneficiary became engaged after petitioner had proposed one or two days before."

They're using the "reasonable person" standard. In other words, would a reasonable person conclude that the relationship was genuine, and not for the purpose of evading immigration law, based on the evidence provided? The consulate's "reasonable person" is a strictly traditional Vietnamese father about 60 years ago.

Ok, the "reasonable person" standard is their excuse. What they are really doing is denying people if they think they've done the bare minimum things they believe they need to do, involving the minimum amount of cash, in order be approved. In other words, does it look like they were working from a checklist they got from an immigration lawyer, since this is what a visa scammer would probably be doing. An immigration lawyer who knew anything about the consulate in HCMC would know that an engagement ceremony was important, so they'd recommend getting it over with on the first trip, saving the evidence of the trip, and filing the petition as soon as the petitioner got back to the US. They'd probably plan a small ceremony at the beneficiary's house, followed by a small party of one or two dozen people.

What the consulate wants to see is ceremony involving one or two dozen people, followed by a party involving one or two hundred. They want to see something that obviously involved a month or two of preparation, and a lot of cash.

Thanks Jim for your insight. So, say if they deny our case base on what you've mentioned above, then I guess everyone that didn't know about the consulate's 'reasonable person' argument are doomed to be denied then! And so what would they do to our case? Send it back to USCIS, and then make us refile again, the right way, the consulate's way? Great, there goes more waiting...it's going to be our 3rd year this year.

So the consulate is implying that, in order to prove that one's engagement ceremony is genuine or valid, you would have to put a lot of money into it? That's ludicrous, because it would pave the way for scammers to use such an idea for their means.

[kiki92 1]

As was stated, an Dam Hoi is required in HCMC.. to say otherwise is to post dangerous misinformation... Some have gotten away with no engagement ceremony... like hitting the lotto IMO and not something that happens often. I will be surprised if your case is still at HCMC.

as always Jim +1

Hi Scott! I'll soon find out later this week. HCMC received our file July/10, so I'm pretty sure it's still there, I have the letter that they sent via email to my fiance regarding the validity of our visa application...they said we have from 8/10-8/11 to pursue our visa...

[kiki92 1]

Hi Scott! I'll soon find out later this week. HCMC received our file July/10, so I'm pretty sure it's still there, I have the letter that they sent via email to my fiance regarding the validity of our visa application...they said we have from 8/10-8/11 to pursue our visa...

Going back to what Jim had mentioned, I figure, if the consulate will deny those who have a small engagement ceremony on the first visit,then I guess, I'd rather withdraw my application and file a new one instead of setting myself and my fiance up for failure. Is there not a way for us to go around this, will they not give us a chance to justify things?

Has anyone tried to withdraw and then refile under a spousal visa? If so, please let us know!

[luckytxn 2,263]

Hi luckytxn! Wow! that's amazing, how did that happen? Please give us details! Did you have a lot of evidence prior to the visit? what were some of the things that they asked about during the interview, if your significant other can recall the information. Your case brings hope to those who are in a similar situation.

I have a feeling that they might view a viet kieu differently than a native born American. Any thoughts on this?

Howdy Kiki and God bless and good luck on the process. It is hard to say all the details as it has been about 2 years now and I have posted the details over the time when it happened and even posted the interview questions and answers. We had gotten a blue slip asking for a timeline and list of relatives and she went in early to turn it in and received the pink that same day.

As I said before we had little proof of chatting before I flew to Vn and meet her, only about 4 months. We did mention that if the visit went well I would ask her father if it was OK for us to become engaged. I went there and after about the 5th day I asked him and he agreed (after some drinking). Two days later we had a big party to meet me and we called that the engagement party. In that two days the family just called everyone within range and about 150+ people showed up. We had the party at her house which is more like a compound and the family cooked all the food and scrounged up enough tables and chairs and we bought beer and booze and just had an all out party. I took a lot of pics of everyone. I was there almost 2 weeks and when I returned I put in for the K1 visa.

I made sure I saved all logs of our chats on yahoo. I made dozens of pics of us in different places and doing things. I sent in a short timeline when I sent in the K1.

My babe had a rough interview from the infamous at that time Korean lady but my babe answered everything well. They even tried to trip her up but she stayed cool. She got the blue and like I said before she went in early and received the pink. I was shocked to say the least as most on her up to that time had me convinced I was going to fail. I had many red flags.

I was introduced by her Aunt here in the states.

We had short online courtship of a few months before I flew to meet her.

I became engaged and had a party the first week there and the first and only visit I made.

There was 17 years difference in our ages.

She spoke little English for interview and had to do it in VN.

Sure there may be others but these alone made me think and the advice I received from others here was that I was doomed. I was going to send a timeline to her and the list of relatives for the interview but I thought it was so bad that I decided to wait and do it after the interview so I can be sure to make the timeline match up to her interview answers. (They took the timeline when she returned with the list of relatives but didn't even look at it when they gave her the pink) Not sure why we got the pink but I do know that there have been others that had been only once and short engagement and the same as us and passed. Also I have seen many that have failed and gotten that dreaded notice that custom was not followed. Not sure why some made it and others failed.

I do think that the person we used to help her there prepare helped a lot. He is a family member and has done many help for others to get a visa and he is always successful for some reason bu doubt that is the one reason. I credit my babe most of all. She is very patient and has a poker face and seems always rock steady under anything thrown her way. They could have been yelling at her or even the building could have been crashing down around her and she would still be calm and non plussed. ( I know better though) Nothing can shake her. Maybe something else that helped was that I prepped her well on knowing me. I told her everything about me good or bad about my whole life. We started from when I was practically born until the present. We broke it down by years. I told her about my early childhood things and family and school and friends and progressed from there. She hated to hear about some things but I insisted she know. Also to make sure that she know I had her pronounce the names of friends and places like she was a native English speaker. The interviewer tried to trip her up by some questions asking who I go fishing or golfing with and she told them. If she didn't know she said she didn't or couldn't know that.

[luckytxn 2,263]

Going back to what Jim had mentioned, I figure, if the consulate will deny those who have a small engagement ceremony on the first visit,then I guess, I'd rather withdraw my application and file a new one instead of setting myself and my fiance up for failure. Is there not a way for us to go around this, will they not give us a chance to justify things?

Has anyone tried to withdraw and then refile under a spousal visa? If so, please let us know!

I personally have never heard of anyone withdrawing the petition and waiting then trying later. I would say that since it has gone this far in the system that it is best to go through to the end but have the best evidence possible and prep that can be done. Read here all you can and see what red flags there are and try to counteract them. If possible try to turn in green flags. Many do not like my suggestions and will give you their own. Listen to them all and do what you think is best. We are each different here and there is no cookie cutter approach that is best except to keep any and all evidence of a building loving relationship. Make sure your fiancee knows you well. Find out if there are any red flags that you may have that are almost guarantees of being put in AP. (As an example being a recent divorce)

You said you had a engagement ceremony but had no relatives. You did try though and make sure you let them know that you did. They understand that families become estranged. Increase the chats and saving them.

I have no idea about if there is a difference between that I am a white American and someone else being a Viet Kieu. It is possible and some here has said there are but no one knows for sure. I certainly don't. I hope no anyway as that is to me unfair I think.

[kiki92 1]

I personally have never heard of anyone withdrawing the petition and waiting then trying later. I would say that since it has gone this far in the system that it is best to go through to the end but have the best evidence possible and prep that can be done. Read here all you can and see what red flags there are and try to counteract them. If possible try to turn in green flags. Many do not like my suggestions and will give you their own. Listen to them all and do what you think is best. We are each different here and there is no cookie cutter approach that is best except to keep any and all evidence of a building loving relationship. Make sure your fiancee knows you well. Find out if there are any red flags that you may have that are almost guarantees of being put in AP. (As an example being a recent divorce)

You said you had a engagement ceremony but had no relatives. You did try though and make sure you let them know that you did. They understand that families become estranged. Increase the chats and saving them.

I have no idea about if there is a difference between that I am a white American and someone else being a Viet Kieu. It is possible and some here has said there are but no one knows for sure. I certainly don't. I hope no anyway as that is to me unfair I think.

Hi Curtis! I'm so glad I found this site at this point...and I'm grateful for you and all those who have provided their input regarding my case. I like your optimistic outlook on things. I've filed my petition in Jan./10, now we're waiting for our scheduled interview, let's hope HCMC still has our file.

After reading some of the posts by others, I feel disenchanted, because I don't want this to drag on for sooo long, and if we end up in AR, oh boy, I don't want to think how long we're going to be there.

I guess all I can do is prepare for the worse, so far, potential red flags in my case are...small ceremony with no family from US attending, age gap, I'm 5 years older than my fiance( his family has no problems with it), I was introduced by his aunt, who have known me for about 15 years,...Does any of the item listed seemed like potential AR to you?

[luckytxn 2,263]

Hi Curtis! I'm so glad I found this site at this point...and I'm grateful for you and all those who have provided their input regarding my case. I like your optimistic outlook on things. I've filed my petition in Jan./10, now we're waiting for our scheduled interview, let's hope HCMC still has our file.

After reading some of the posts by others, I feel disenchanted, because I don't want this to drag on for sooo long, and if we end up in AR, oh boy, I don't want to think how long we're going to be there.

I guess all I can do is prepare for the worse, so far, potential red flags in my case are...small ceremony with no family from US attending, age gap, I'm 5 years older than my fiance( his family has no problems with it), I was introduced by his aunt, who have known me for about 15 years,...Does any of the item listed seemed like potential AR to you?

Right off hand I say no. Some here will say that the lady being older is a red flag but shouldn't put you in AP. The no family may be a red flag but is not going to put you into AP. Being introduced by the Aunt is a red flag but not a AP by itself. Red flags are just that and not going to put you into AP by themselves.

Look. It is best to be optimistic for sure but of course to plan for the worse. My babe and I did talk when it got close to what we would do if they denied us. We just said we would fight forever if we had to and never give up.

You will need to show a lot of evidence of relationship. Do everything you can to make that strong. Make sure that your financials are strong. Try to see your presenting of evidence through the consulate eyes. Will this what I am presenting look weak or strong. You are lucky that you can see what others have done and get prepared.

[Dau Que 6]

When you bought a lotto ticket and then pray really hard, do you think that action will INCREASE your chance of being successful?

What others in here or elsewhere think, positively or not, is irrelevant. You should read CAREFULLY the past pattern and the outcome. What's the "statistic" on cases similar to yours with positive outcomes (pink slip)?

Don't look at a "few" lucky cases and feel better for yourselves.

PS> You should have asked for opinions and then carefully weigh out the Pros and Cons of your case BEFORE proceeding filing the case. At this point, the damage has been done. There's little you can do to alleviate your mistakes.

[kiki92 1]

I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who have had red flags and was given an opportunity to overcome them during the interview or after the interview. If so, please let us know, this would mean that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. If they don't allow for people to provide evidence or justify their case, then you're right Dau que, we're doomed!

From reading the posts, the chances of each case is relative to which CO was assign to the case, so I don't think I have done anything wrong, if I'm trying to be optimistic about my case.

At this point, those of us who had filed our petition don't need people to chastise us by telling us, you should of...because what's done is done... What we need are people who have been through this difficult process and who have had similar experience to share with us, so that we can be better prepared.

Again, thank you Curtis for your input! Reading your post makes my day a little brighter!

[luckytxn 2,263]

I'm wondering if there's anyone out there who have had red flags and was given an opportunity to overcome them during the interview or after the interview. If so, please let us know, this would mean that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. If they don't allow for people to provide evidence or justify their case, then you're right Dau que, we're doomed!

From reading the posts, the chances of each case is relative to which CO was assign to the case, so I don't think I have done anything wrong, if I'm trying to be optimistic about my case.

At this point, those of us who had filed our petition don't need people to chastise us by telling us, you should of...because what's done is done... What we need are people who have been through this difficult process and who have had similar experience to share with us, so that we can be better prepared.

Again, thank you Curtis for your input! Reading your post makes my day a little brighter!

Anytime Kiki. We are here to help and have any questions then feel free and ask. Make sure you read this forum and do searches as most questions have been asked before. No need to worry.

Also remember we have a few that only say negative no matter what. Don't feed them as that is what they are looking for. Also please feel in a timeline. It helps others here. Good luck and God bless.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Thanks Jim for your insight. So, say if they deny our case base on what you've mentioned above, then I guess everyone that didn't know about the consulate's 'reasonable person' argument are doomed to be denied then! And so what would they do to our case? Send it back to USCIS, and then make us refile again, the right way, the consulate's way? Great, there goes more waiting...it's going to be our 3rd year this year.

So the consulate is implying that, in order to prove that one's engagement ceremony is genuine or valid, you would have to put a lot of money into it? That's ludicrous, because it would pave the way for scammers to use such an idea for their means.

You'd be surprised the number of girls who walk out of that consulate in tears because the CO chewed them up and spit them out. I'm sure a good percentage of them aren't scammers. They just didn't know how high the consulate sets the bar, and they weren't prepared for it.

People have been looking for the "magic formula" for years. Lucky is proof that having the classic red flags doesn't necessarily mean a denial. His wife was char broiled and blue slipped, but still managed to get a pink in the end. Others with much fewer red flags have failed - some have failed more than once. Nobody knows for sure what will work and what won't. We can only go by the statistics, and by what the denial slips say.

Statistically, having an engagement ceremony on the first trip increases the odds of a denial. Likewise with having a small engagement ceremony. That's another one that is cited on denial slips.

"This contradicts social and cultural norms in which many family members and friends, including those in the US, are invited to engagement celebrations numbering in the hundreds of guest for families of even modest means. Together with other factors, this has been established as one of the key elements of a sham relationship to evade US immigration laws."

As I said, their "reasonable person" is a strictly traditional Vietnamese father from generations past. There was a time, however, when parents would save up for years in order to pay for their son's engagement ceremony and party, the same way many Americans save up for their kid's college education.

Scammers don't generally foot the bill for a big engagement ceremony and party. They're just trying to do the minimum they think they need to do in order to get a visa. In some cases, their families are paying for everything to help them immigrate. They may even be paying the US citizen to cooperate. The consulate will look for evidence if this scenario, as well. For example, a petitioner with borderline income who somehow manages to find the cash to make three trips to Vietnam in six months or so. They're going to suspect someone else is buying his tickets.

[luckytxn 2,263]

You'd be surprised the number of girls who walk out of that consulate in tears because the CO chewed them up and spit them out. I'm sure a good percentage of them aren't scammers. They just didn't know how high the consulate sets the bar, and they weren't prepared for it.

People have been looking for the "magic formula" for years. Lucky is proof that having the classic red flags doesn't necessarily mean a denial. His wife was char broiled and blue slipped, but still managed to get a pink in the end. Others with much fewer red flags have failed - some have failed more than once. Nobody knows for sure what will work and what won't. We can only go by the statistics, and by what the denial slips say.

Statistically, having an engagement ceremony on the first trip increases the odds of a denial. Likewise with having a small engagement ceremony. That's another one that is cited on denial slips.

"This contradicts social and cultural norms in which many family members and friends, including those in the US, are invited to engagement celebrations numbering in the hundreds of guest for families of even modest means. Together with other factors, this has been established as one of the key elements of a sham relationship to evade US immigration laws."

As I said, their "reasonable person" is a strictly traditional Vietnamese father from generations past. There was a time, however, when parents would save up for years in order to pay for their son's engagement ceremony and party, the same way many Americans save up for their kid's college education.

Scammers don't generally foot the bill for a big engagement ceremony and party. They're just trying to do the minimum they think they need to do in order to get a visa. In some cases, their families are paying for everything to help them immigrate. They may even be paying the US citizen to cooperate. The consulate will look for evidence if this scenario, as well. For example, a petitioner with borderline income who somehow manages to find the cash to make three trips to Vietnam in six months or so. They're going to suspect someone else is buying his tickets.

All very true and even some who have done even less than I have gotten a pink. I have seen some who did way more than I and it seemed everything right get a denial. We all know this and that is the reason I say to do the best one can. I don't think it helps though to just flat out say that someone will fail and get a denial because they had a few red flags. We don't know it will for sure. It is definitely not right to be so sure of anything here. We can try to help if asked though. At the least many come here to learn things to help them and being told they are doomed is not right.

Her visa is in so all she can do is try to get the evidence to show the best possible relationship progression. Make sure financials look good. Make sure he knows as much as possible about you. She sent the petition in already. The engagement party is in he past. She can't turn time back.

[kiki92 1]

You'd be surprised the number of girls who walk out of that consulate in tears because the CO chewed them up and spit them out. I'm sure a good percentage of them aren't scammers. They just didn't know how high the consulate sets the bar, and they weren't prepared for it.

People have been looking for the "magic formula" for years. Lucky is proof that having the classic red flags doesn't necessarily mean a denial. His wife was char broiled and blue slipped, but still managed to get a pink in the end. Others with much fewer red flags have failed - some have failed more than once. Nobody knows for sure what will work and what won't. We can only go by the statistics, and by what the denial slips say.

Statistically, having an engagement ceremony on the first trip increases the odds of a denial. Likewise with having a small engagement ceremony. That's another one that is cited on denial slips.

"This contradicts social and cultural norms in which many family members and friends, including those in the US, are invited to engagement celebrations numbering in the hundreds of guest for families of even modest means. Together with other factors, this has been established as one of the key elements of a sham relationship to evade US immigration laws."

As I said, their "reasonable person" is a strictly traditional Vietnamese father from generations past. There was a time, however, when parents would save up for years in order to pay for their son's engagement ceremony and party, the same way many Americans save up for their kid's college education.

Scammers don't generally foot the bill for a big engagement ceremony and party. They're just trying to do the minimum they think they need to do in order to get a visa. In some cases, their families are paying for everything to help them immigrate. They may even be paying the US citizen to cooperate. The consulate will look for evidence if this scenario, as well. For example, a petitioner with borderline income who somehow manages to find the cash to make three trips to Vietnam in six months or so. They're going to suspect someone else is buying his tickets.

I understand their 'reasonable person' argument Jim, but what I'm asking here is that, does the consulate give couples opportunities to justify or provide evidence for the reason for having a small engagement party or other red flags that they might have?