Engagement ceremony pictures?

[BinhJerome 14]

Most new traditional style engagement ceremonies do include the red gift boxes, but in the past this was part of the wedding ceremony and not part of the engagement ceremony. I know links do show that it is part of the engagement ceremony but my main point is that in years past this was part of the wedding ceremony and not part of the engagement party. With the link you showed and many more links that I am sure you will show the gifts are considered a dowry. These decisions are all made prior to the engagement ceremony when they actually announce the day to everyone, but as I said in the older times the red boxes with gifts were considered part of the wedding party, not the engagement party, and there are also links that will show this as well.

http://vietnam-beaut...g-ceremony.html

http://www.vietnambu...aid=869&pgid=26

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~mylynguyen/Vietnamese/index.htm

Note the red boxes at the WEDDING Ceremony Also on the third link it does not have photos but it also talks about the gifts and recieving the bride.

Jerome

Edited January 2, 2011 by jeromebinh

[BinhJerome 14]

Thats exactly what we did for our Dam Hoi... a procession to the family home with red boxes containing gifts and an elaborate tray of palm nuts, tea and cigarettes presented to everyone and a party that followed... the highlighted portion above is a common component of a Dam Hoi...

Receiving the bride</SPAN>

• 
  
  The Procession and gifts
  </SPAN>

The procession of the groom's family is led by specific order; usually the first person will be a man chosen as the representative of the groom's house (he should have a good manner of speaking along with high status in society), followed by the groom's father, the groom, then the rest of his immediate family and close friends. Huge traditional umbrellas are carried and accompany the front of the procession. Interestingly, in the past the groom's mother did not take part in the procession as a sign that she would not be a threat to the future bride (and she would even hide for a short period upon the bride's welcome into the groom's home). However, this practice has long been abandoned. The number of people participating in a procession varies but is usually restricted to a smaller number (20 or so) to make it easier on the bride's family who will be receiving all of the guests.

In the procession, the groom and his family (among others) will be bearing elaborately decorated lacquer boxes, covered in red cloth. Inside these boxes are gifts representing the wealth the groom's family will bring to the bride's family. Gifts include: betel, wine, tea, fruit, cakes, a roast pig, and an abundance of jewelry for the bride (the amount of jewelry depending on the personal wealth of the groom's family). Usually the number of gift boxes varies from 6 or 8, but never 7 or 9 which is seen as bad luck.

This is from a website that says that this is a part of the wedding celibration, and done on the wedding day. I truly feel that this is a touchy subject with many different opinions, and the fact is that either way if you believe it is NOT for the wedding cermony, of if you do, either way they have not been known to have any adverse affect on the K1 petition unless of course you did not have one.

Jerome

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Jim, do you know what the boxes symbolize? This is the dowry that the groom pays for the bride to be's parents, this is why it is considered part of the "Wedding ceremony" Many people do in fact do this with the engagement party also, but the actual meaning what I posted earlier is that it is actually for the wedding ceremony part, and not actually part of the engagement ceremony, UNLESS you are having them on the same day which also many people do in fact do, but to be politically correct, when you are giving gifts this is actually part of a WEDDING ceremony, and NOT an engagement ceremony, when the family gets together to meet when circumstances allow for it, the engagement ceremony is actually when they do start to do in-depth detailed planning of the wedding, and where the bride and groom will live after the wedding. You can disagree with me all you want on this subject, but I have not only asked my wife, but also my wife’s mother, her brother, the land lord where we live, as well as the neighbors on both sides, AND the 96 year old woman across the alley.

Not lying on who I asked either since this is a very important part of a relationship in Vietnam, I want people that might not be so sure of what is actually going on to know. I know at our wedding/engagement party I had no clue what was going on, I was just a party doing what was asked. Since then I have done research since many people here argue NOT to have a wedding ceremony, because many say that it will hurt you at the consulate. What I have found out through my research is that most people are actually doing an untypical wedding ceremony. Many people that have done the "Engagement Party" have brought gifts in the fancy red boxes, this is part of the wedding ceremony, and usually this is where the wedding ceremony and the engagement party similarities stop. Most people do not go to the alter and pray to the ancestors. One might argue that the culture has changed and the red boxes are now more considered to be part of an engagement party, but the fact is that in the past they were used as part of a wedding ceremony and NOT an engagement party. Hence at the first family meeting the dowry is decided, and then at the wedding ceremony the groom knows how many of those red boxes he must bring and what will be inside each of them.

Jerome and Binh

A dowry in most cultures is traditionally paid by the BRIDE to the GROOM'S family. There is no corollary to the gifts that are given to the bride's family in a traditional Vietnamese engagement ceremony, but many web sites do describe them as a dowry because there simply is no other way to describe them in English, but they definitely do not serve the same purpose as a dowry.

Again, with all due deference to your wife, her family, and the old lady who lives across the street, a traditional Vietnamese engagement ceremony does include the offering of gifts to the bride's family. Perhaps the confusion here comes from a misunderstanding of the question asked. Vietnamese consider the bride and groom to be married, for all intents and purposes, after the engagement ceremony. The only substantial difference is that they don't actually move in together yet. There is also little visible difference between an engagement ceremony and a wedding ceremony. Both ceremonies involve a procession and the offering of gifts. They don't repeat the procession and the offering of gifts if the two ceremonies are performed on the same day.

Once again, I can provide as many online references as you like about this. I also tend to believe the Su Thuc - the Buddhist equivalent of a bishop - to be knowledgeable enough to know the difference between an engagement and a wedding, and he was clear that the ceremony we would be involved in was not a marriage. I've also got a stack of the invitations left over, and each one clearly says "Nhân dịp Lễ Đính Hôn", or "The occasion of the Engagement".

Edited January 2, 2011 by JimVaPhuong

[BinhJerome 14]

A dowry in most cultures is traditionally paid by the BRIDE to the GROOM'S family. There is no corollary to the gifts that are given to the bride's family in a traditional Vietnamese engagement ceremony, but many web sites do describe them as a dowry because there simply is no other way to describe them in English, but they definitely do not serve the same purpose as a dowry.

Again, with all due deference to your wife, her family, and the old lady who lives across the street, a traditional Vietnamese engagement ceremony does include the offering of gifts to the bride's family. Perhaps the confusion here comes from a misunderstanding of the question asked. Vietnamese consider the bride and groom to be married, for all intents and purposes, after the engagement ceremony. The only substantial difference is that they don't actually move in together yet. There is also little visible difference between an engagement ceremony and a wedding ceremony. Both ceremonies involve a procession and the offering of gifts. They don't repeat the procession and the offering of gifts if the two ceremonies are performed on the same day.

Once again, I can provide as many online references as you like about this. I also tend to believe the Su Thuc - the Buddhist equivalent of a bishop - to be knowledgeable enough to know the difference between an engagement and a wedding, and he was clear that the ceremony we would be involved in was not a marriage. I've also got a stack of the invitations left over, and each one clearly says "Nhân dịp Lễ Đính Hôn", or "The occasion of the Engagement".

Either way it doesnt really matter. I can show you I am sure ####### for tat the same number of websites showing that the gifts are considered part of the wedding ceremony, and what it boils down to is what website do you believe, but what does it mean when you are delivering these gifts??? That is the real question that should set it apart. You bring the gifts to the Brides house when you "Accept the Bride" this is more in line towards a wedding ceremony, as in the third link that I posted on a earlier post. The grey area is that times have changed, and along with the changing of time traditions also change and are not as EXACT as they once were. This is what my entire point is. Times have changed, and as well as the cultural traditions, they become more and more modern and more and more things are being accepted as a traditional norm.

The main issue of the original post was what is what, and I have listed websites and you have listed websites, and you have your opinion, and I have my opinion, but what really matters is what happens at the consulate. What matters there is IF you sign any paperwork making your marriage official or not. And to my knowledge no one had EVER been denied a K1 visa because they had a marriage ceremony instead of an engagement ceremony. In fact with our wedding/engagement ceremony we actually showed photos of me at the alter praying to her ancestors which is clearly a Wedding ceremony practice, unlike the disputed gift boxes, and it was never even mentioned simply because we never signed any paperwork, so regardless if it was a traditional engagement ceremony with gift boxes, or a traditional wedding ceremony with gift boxes, as long as nothing is signed then the petitioner should be fine when filing for a K1 and submitting the photos of the ceremony.

Jerome

[ScottThuy 140]

The detail of tradition in VN when it comes to Dam Hoi or Dam Cui is not consistent much like the language is not consistent.. there are variations throughout.... if a poll were done of VJ members who had a Dam Hoi.. most would say red boxes were involved, following the local traditions for that family... in the north it was expected of us..

[luckytxn 2,263]

The gift of red boxes was not expected of us of course but I do know that two of my fiancees brothers were recently married and they had a engagement parties for both like we had done but not the red boxes. On the day of the wedding they also did not have the traditional red box engagement ceremony. It is strange to me as I saw pictures of some of her other brothers that married many years ago where they had this ceremony as described with the red boxes. It seems traditions change. I saw a simple wedding ceremony back then with a one day reception after with food and beer. Her two brothers recent wedding was a two day bash with food and booze and an big stage for a band and Karaoke and just a huge bash. ( I know we both received drunken calls) The first day was mostly the younger ones having a huge drink and party and the second day seemed more mild with a bunch of older fogies. I am not sure why the tradition has changed in the family from about 10 years apart.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Either way it doesnt really matter. I can show you I am sure ####### for tat the same number of websites showing that the gifts are considered part of the wedding ceremony, and what it boils down to is what website do you believe, but what does it mean when you are delivering these gifts??? That is the real question that should set it apart. You bring the gifts to the Brides house when you "Accept the Bride" this is more in line towards a wedding ceremony, as in the third link that I posted on a earlier post. The grey area is that times have changed, and along with the changing of time traditions also change and are not as EXACT as they once were. This is what my entire point is. Times have changed, and as well as the cultural traditions, they become more and more modern and more and more things are being accepted as a traditional norm.

The main issue of the original post was what is what, and I have listed websites and you have listed websites, and you have your opinion, and I have my opinion, but what really matters is what happens at the consulate. What matters there is IF you sign any paperwork making your marriage official or not. And to my knowledge no one had EVER been denied a K1 visa because they had a marriage ceremony instead of an engagement ceremony. In fact with our wedding/engagement ceremony we actually showed photos of me at the alter praying to her ancestors which is clearly a Wedding ceremony practice, unlike the disputed gift boxes, and it was never even mentioned simply because we never signed any paperwork, so regardless if it was a traditional engagement ceremony with gift boxes, or a traditional wedding ceremony with gift boxes, as long as nothing is signed then the petitioner should be fine when filing for a K1 and submitting the photos of the ceremony.

Jerome

Fair enough.