A qusestion to men who would pay for sex...

[justashooter 430]

Concubines are not prostitutes, but even so, this division of women is repugnant. What you are describing is a society where woman had no ability to create their own wealth and were considered 'commodities' so yes, they were not exactly being held in high regard - had no direct power and were totally dependent on their benefactor, yes, that sound reasonable, whether or not the man of high standing had his favourites.

As far as the modern version is concerned,as it is not legal in China and women caught prostituting themselves are treated like scum I find your happy picture of Chinese prostitutes as economic power houses somewhat fantastic.

how about limiting your speach to your areas of experience and direct observation?

the division of wealth is what it is, and is rapidly swinging toward an opposite result, in USA and most of the modern world. china is just 30 years behind. even so, in china a woman is not totally dependent on anyone if she choses not to be. if she is able to get a good education she can rise to high positions in the professional field and even attain USA citizen status by immmigrating under H1-b and converting to GC-USC. seen it done many times.

in regard to what is legal in china, and to how and when and if law is enforced, you are totally ignorant. women working the high end are not treated like scum. even the women working the low end are not treated like scum. they are accepted as an inevitability of life by other women, and regarded as a useful part of society by men. families regard working girls as a resource more powerful than the entire balance of the family, in many cases. they do not stigmatize the endeavour in china, or in many other asian countries.

i laugh at your comment "women caught prostituting themselves". finding a prostitute in china is as easy as finding a bowl of rice, and nobody cares, in general. the only time it gets messy is if the girl is under 15 and her family finds out, or if she gets killed. even so, child prostitution is quite common. in one scandal 2 years ago 35 girls at an expensive dance school were farmed out for an entire summer by the school director before one of the parents heard and raised hell. this case was a clear abuse of the cultural trust and acceptance of tradition, and the guy was shot in the back of the head in a farm field for his offense.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Well carry on and convince me that a man that pays for sex isn't viewing a prostitute merely as an object of gratification? Or, alternatively, explain to me how having men viewing prostitutes as objects of gratification doesn't devalue women per se? I think DeDixon did a great job of explaining exactly how dehumanized prostitutes become while plying their trade. Explain to me how that's a reasonable exchange for the money that they earn through their working lives?

so what if he does. He pays for the privilege. I do not assume he is so selfish in a normal relationship, but maybe he is. That isn't our problem either. In fact, I do not assume he HAS a normal relationship

[slim 1,533]

Quite a few years back a woman came out to visit the Marines in California who were training the local Boy Scouts to shoot rifles. She was there to interview their commanding officer about the program. The reporter asked, "Sir, don't you think it's wrong to teach these young boys to be killers?"

He replied, "Ma'am, I'm teaching them to shoot rifles, not to be killers."

She countered, "Well, if you're teaching them to shoot rifles, aren't you equipping them to be killers?"

He said, "Ma'am, even though you have the equipment to be a prostitute, that doesn't necessarily make you one, does it?"

The interview ended immediately. The commander was reported to be none other than Chesty Puller.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

but you said hookers are exploited by men as if they are weak souls without any control or choice in what they are doing with their lives. not a great view of women either.

I said I make no judgement about women who go into prostitution. Women go into prostitution for numerous reasons - but I doubt many grew up wanting it to be their chosen profession.

The idea that women put it about to secure material advantage from men, and that there they are for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from prostitutes is rather offensive.

It also doesn't address the male side of the equation - where a promiscuous men is a stud, while a promiscuous woman can only be a #######.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

I'd be interest to know how Gary would respond to that, but I can sort of guess.

simple. They say when, they say who, they say how much. If they aren't making enough money it is their fault. Sheeesh, should I complain to you that I don't make enough money and it is therefore dehumanizing? Independent contractors (prostitutes) set their own rates.

Again we are assuming the practice is LEGAL. Again madam Cleo personifies the old joke about women..."We KNOW what you are, now we are just negotiating the price"

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

simple. They say when, they say who, they say how much. If they aren't making enough money it is their fault. Sheeesh, should I complain to you that I don't make enough money and it is therefore dehumanizing? Independent contractors (prostitutes) set their own rates.

Again we are assuming the practice is LEGAL. Again madam Cleo personifies the old joke about women..."We KNOW what you are, now we are just negotiating the price"

The issue that was brought up was not a question of money but of the psychological impacts of prostitution on the women who do it.

[Peikko 1,575]

I thought we were discussuing the moral aspects of an assumed "legal" practice? But you cannot go a single page without bringing the law, government, into it. Big surprise. A liberal that needs government to support her argument. A liberal that wants to restrict choices of adult women.

How do I want to restrict the choices of adult women Gary? I have said repeatedly that I support the legalization of prostitution. I am not sure how that equates to requiring 'govming' support for my argument.

The actual point I made, should you actually be interested in addressing it, is that only with common consent is an individuals morality validated. You bang on about choice but presumably you understand that only by common consent do you have the ability to exercise any sort of choice? Your choices become nul and void when individuals in society ignore the rules that we consent to agree to. Morality is strengthened when individuals confirm their adherence to a collective morality and is weakened if individuals abdicate that responsibility by saying nothing outside their own house is any of their concern. Of course, as a libertarian you believe that this common consensus is stifling your freedom but the reality is that it guarantees it.

[slim 1,533]

You perception is sexist. It's sexist because it appears to assume a view of women where men are held to a different standard for similar behaviour.

So reality is sexist? Hey, I didn't make the rules. I'm not the one that said the fat girl is hot at closing time if no skinny girl is available. I'm not the one that said skinny girls get guys who they have no intention of sleeping with to buy them drinks.

I'm not the one that made pu$$y a commodity - but it is.

Do you guys honestly see relationships as a series of manipulative negotiations with one side trying to get 'one over' on the other all the time (some of you even keeping score to see who is 'winning'?) I have to say, that's quite extraordinary and I am glad I don't have to communicate with the people I know in this way, that would be terrifically exhausting.

Where's all this relationships ####### coming from? We're talking about prostitution, no?

I said I make no judgement about women who go into prostitution. Women go into prostitution for numerous reasons - but I doubt many grew up wanting it to be their chosen profession.

How can you NOT make judgement on prostitutes? If you have a moral stance on the issue (which, obviously you do) how is it you're excluding their involvement in the whole process and "blaming" it all on someone else?

The idea that women put it about to secure material advantage from men, and that there they are for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from prostitutes is rather offensive.

Why is reality offensive to you?

It also doesn't address the male side of the equation - where a promiscuous men is a stud, while a promiscuous woman can only be a #######.

That comes directly from biology. You can dress it up however you want, but once again, none of us made these rules.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So reality is sexist? Hey, I didn't make the rules. I'm not the one that said the fat girl is hot at closing time if no skinny girl is available. I'm not the one that said skinny girls get guys who they have no intention of sleeping with to buy them drinks.

I'm not the one that made pu$$y a commodity - but it is.

Where's all this relationships ####### coming from? We're talking about prostitution, no?

How can you NOT make judgement on prostitutes? If you have a moral stance on the issue (which, obviously you do) how is it you're excluding their involvement in the whole process and "blaming" it all on someone else?

Why is reality offensive to you?

That comes directly from biology. You can dress it up however you want, but once again, none of us made these rules.

How does that distinction come from biology? Social ideologies aren't biological.

[Peikko 1,575]

Slim, you were the one that expanded it out to basically suggest that all women are prostitutes, just that some choose not to call themselves that. Are you saying that's not what you said?

[slim 1,533]

How does that distinction come from biology? Social ideologies aren't biological.

Biology -

Males try to reproduce with as many females as possible.

Females try to secure the best possibility of successful offspring.

to be fair it looks fake (in this instance, I don't think any police force cuffs in front )

Obviously you have no idea about police practices.

You can plainly see the girl is cuffed in front for the photo op in the first picture then cuffed in back for transport in the second picture.

Slim, you were the one that expanded it out to basically suggest that all women are prostitutes, just that some choose not to call themselves that. Are you saying that's not what you said?

I said all women CAN be prostitutes.

[DEDixon 39]

It also doesn't address the male side of the equation - where a promiscuous men is a stud, while a promiscuous woman can only be a #######.

that kind of stuff doesn't play in the client-provider world. women who officially aren't providers though give it up as easily as a provider are called whores and sluts, but it makes no sense to call a provider a ####### or a ####### - she'll laugh at you and wonder what planet you are from.

I make no judgement on why women turn to prostitution.

I blame the men who exploit them.

seems you are saying men exploit providers. i don't think so. i feel providers are in control and are in their chosen career so not exploitable.

Edited July 26, 2010 by DEDixon

[Peikko 1,575]

Does that mean the article supports Shooters idyllic view of prostitution in China, or mine, that as everywhere, prostitutes are treated like trash?

No, you said all women are taxis, just some don't run the meter. That's not the same as all women are cars, some women are taxis and some taxis don't run the meter.

As for your view of men and women, Yes, we are biologically different, but if men (and women) merely followed their biological urges rape would not be illegal, there would be no such institution as marriage indeed, there would probably be no laws and humans would still be living a similar lifestyle to modern apes. Luckily, mankind evolved beyond acting out our basic urges, or at least most of mankind did.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

And how is that any different than prostitution?

Assuming the men were after "one thing" and you were using them to get things you wanted, is the only difference that you didn't agree on a price and exchange currency or are you on the moral highground because you weren't "technically" selling yourself for money?

Sorry I missed all this this afternoon and evening, I was busy getting laid by my new paramour.

Anyway, just to be clear, I wasn't screwing the men for favours or meals or trinkets. I was just using them for sex.

Edit: atrocious punctuation.

Edited July 26, 2010 by elmcitymaven

[slim 1,533]

Does that mean the article supports Shooters idyllic view of prostitution in China, or mine, that as everywhere, prostitutes are treated like trash?

I'm not sure what article you're referring to but most of the prostitutes I've known weren't treated like trash. Far from it, actually.

I'm not saying there aren't prostitutes that are treated like trash, but like most jobs where employees are treated like trash, I'd say that's more on the employee than the employer. You don't have to work if you don't want to. And all this ####### about women being trafficked and forced into prostitution - while it does happen - is not the reason the trade has survived longer than any other in the world. It's survived because i'ts effective and lucrative.

I'm guessing many of you are basing your "knowledge" on this topic much like you base most of your other "knowledge" here on VJ and that is what you've seen on TV or read about on the internet, not what you've actually encountered first-hand around the world. (And keep in mind, around the world means more than England and the U.S.)

No, you said all women are taxis, just some don't run the meter. That's not the same as all women are cars, some women are taxis and some taxis don't run the meter.

I think if you go back and read my post I clearly said all women are cars.

You may've misunderstood my intent (wouldn't be the first time) and that is everyone can give a ride in a car whether it's a taxi or not... no one has to charge. Taxis specifically charge for a ride but sometimes guys take a ride in a car that's not a taxi and they still pay for it. They may not specifically pay the driver for the ride, but often they make car payments, pay insurance, put gas in the car, buy the driver lunch, etc.

What I don't understand is why people have a problem with taxis but don't really mind if a car gives rides in exchange for things other than direct payment of cash.

As for your view of men and women, Yes, we are biologically different, but if men (and women) merely followed their biological urges rape would not be illegal, there would be no such institution as marriage indeed, there would probably be no laws and humans would still be living a similar lifestyle to modern apes. Luckily, mankind evolved beyond acting out our basic urges, or at least most of mankind did.

I like it when you guys use this argment. It's the same as "in a modern society you don't need 10 guns."

FAIL.

You're basically saying - in a topic where prostitution is legal - that nobody should follow their biological impulses and participate in the sex trade because we're "more developed" now. If that was the case, why haven't women developed enough to stop using their bodies to get what they want?

Sorry I missed all this this afternoon and evening, I was busy getting laid by my new paramour.

Anyway, just to be clear, I wasn't screwing the men for favours or meals or trinkets. I was just using them for sex.

Edit: atrocious punctuation.

Assuming you weren't buying them trinkets... why do you think they were screwing you?