Utah Considers Making 12th Grade Optional

[웃 910]

June 4, 2010

A cost-cutting proposal originally aimed at eliminating the 12th grade in Utah has been revised to instead allow students to graduate from high school earlier.

State legislators are studying the proposal over the summer to decide whether to move forward on it, a spokesman for the Utah school board told FoxNews.com.

State Sen. Chris Buttars made the proposal in February as the state faced a $700 million shortfall, saying seniors are usually out to lunch during their last school year. After teachers and parents voiced opposition, Buttars toned the proposal down and presented it as "accelerated graduation," school board spokesman Mark Peterson said.

Buttars has said the move could save up to $60 million. Buttars was not able to comment due to an illness, his wife told FoxNews.com.

Peterson said the earliest lawmakers can take action on the proposal is January when the next session begins.

"It hasn't died," he said. "But it's not being actively pursued."

[GabiandVi 34]

I see no problem with this. It's not the only answer, and possibly not even the best answer, but it is an answer to the problem of much of education not being meaningful to large percentages of students.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I will point out 3 things...

1. 12th grade is optional anywhere in the US. For some whacked out reason every state allows children to drop out of school at age 16, usually 10th or 11th grade. I can only assume it was racists that promote welfare and other enslavement programs that thought up that bit of genius.

2. Most of the world somehow gets by with 11 years of education before college and then offers free college to anyone that wants it.

3. Utah does not pay for college...so it will be less competition in the job market for those of us whose children are not educated in Utah. Sounds good to me. Downside?

[GabiandVi 34]

less competition in the job market for those of us whose children are not educated in Utah.

The vast majority of jobs in the US do not require a college education, and high school and 12th grade do not prepare students for those jobs. Those are jobs that we all need people to do in order to make everyone's lives liveable.

You would agree that no matter what our wishes for every student are or should be, not everyone can, should, or will go to university. I don't think there should be any shame in that. I'd rather prepare students to be productive and let them go out a year early to start contributing back to society than keep them in school for an additional year so they can study British literature (usually the topic of the 4th English course which is typically the only remaining required course in 12th grade, the rest being electives or elective sciences, histories, or maths.)

I grew up in a family where it was understood you would bring home As and matriculate to university, and as such, it is hard for me to imagine that my child won't go to college. But I hope I will support her in whatever endeavor she chooses if it is lawful, productive, not too dangerous or unreliable, and it makes her happy. I also hope I won't teach her to think that if she or any of her friends do not go to college they are automatically failures. I don't want everyone who does the jobs I depend on that don't require a university degree to be bitter and consider themselves to be losers. I'd rather promote a sense of pride in work, even if it is not "professional."

[Heracles 417]

The vast majority of jobs in the US do not require a college education, and high school and 12th grade do not prepare students for those jobs. Those are jobs that we all need people to do in order to make everyone's lives liveable.

You would agree that no matter what our wishes for every student are or should be, not everyone can, should, or will go to university. I don't think there should be any shame in that. I'd rather prepare students to be productive and let them go out a year early to start contributing back to society than keep them in school for an additional year so they can study British literature (usually the topic of the 4th English course which is typically the only remaining required course in 12th grade, the rest being electives or elective sciences, histories, or maths.)

I grew up in a family where it was understood you would bring home As and matriculate to university, and as such, it is hard for me to imagine that my child won't go to college. But I hope I will support her in whatever endeavor she chooses if it is lawful, productive, not too dangerous or unreliable, and it makes her happy. I also hope I won't teach her to think that if she or any of her friends do not go to college they are automatically failures. I don't want everyone who does the jobs I depend on that don't require a university degree to be bitter and consider themselves to be losers. I'd rather promote a sense of pride in work, even if it is not "professional."

Unfortunately many in America are suckered into believing that college is the and all be all. One lady I heard of had $200k in student loan debt.

This is interesting because it links into the unskilled thread. Not going to college is just no longer a viable option in America. I have numerous friends and family that are millionaires in AUS doing their own blue-collar work, with most owning their own small business. Whereas, unless they hired illegals and exploited them too, they'd be dirt poor doing the same work [themselves] here.

[GabiandVi 34]

Unfortunately many in America are suckered into believing that college is the and all be all. One lady I heard of had $200k in student loan debt.

This is interesting because it links into the unskilled thread. Not going to college is just no longer a viable option in America. I have numerous friends and family that are millionaires in AUS doing their own blue-collar work, with most owning their own small business. Whereas, unless they hired illegals and exploited them too, they'd be dirt poor doing the same work [themselves] here.

But that's just your experience. I know many people who have done extremely well for themselves in the US creating niches and filling them without the aid of a college degree or at least outside their area of training.

I also know several legal immigrants who have done the same. And this also leads back to comments I've made in the unskilled labor thread. Many times, legal immigrants hold the values that America was built on while many Americans have abandoned them. (Not to be confused as an argument for unskilled visas. Only an observation and another reason for regret that that opportunity does not exist for many wannabe immigrants around the world.)

Edited June 5, 2010 by GabiandVi

[Heracles 417]

But that's just your experience. I know many people who have done extremely well for themselves in the US creating niches and filling them without the aid of a college degree or at least outside their area of training.

I also know several legal immigrants who have done the same. And this also leads back to comments I've made in the unskilled labor thread. Many times, legal immigrants hold the values that America was built on while many Americans have abandoned them. (Not to be confused as an argument for unskilled visas. Only an observation and another reason for regret that that opportunity does not exist for many wannabe immigrants around the world.)

You are talking about the exception, I am talking about the norm. The fact is that for most who drop out of college and take up blue-collar work, their pay is significantly lower. Thus the country's chronic poverty and trailer park after ghetto. That is not some figment of my imagination, it's the reality of the US. Whereas, blue-collar workers in AUS can be paid as much as US bankers.

Americans have a right to be here, legal or illegal immigrant do not. It's clear you are heading down the path that Americans are simply lazy. No, Americans just don't want nor should want to work for $7 an hour; which after tax barely even pays for rent in the ghetto or in a trailer park.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. I have seen how hard they work, as most immigrants work. However, one's responsibility lies in their country and its citizens first.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Booyah!

[GabiandVi 34]

You are talking about the exception, I am talking about the norm. The fact is that for most who drop out of college and take up blue-collar work, their pay is significantly lower. Thus the country's chronic poverty and trailer park after ghetto. That is not some figment of my imagination, it's the reality of the US. Whereas, blue-collar workers in AUS can be paid as much as US bankers.

Americans have a right to be here, legal or illegal immigrant do not. It's clear you are heading down the path that Americans are simply lazy. No, Americans just don't want nor should want to work for $7 an hour; which after tax barely even pays for rent in the ghetto or in a trailer park.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. I have seen how hard they work, as most immigrants work. However, one's responsibility lies in their country and its citizens first.

BOLDED: This was the case in Eastern Europe under communism.

I definitely believe that there should be higher pay for many and perhaps all non-professional jobs in the US. However, I have no problem with a scale depending on many factors, including investment (financial and otherwise) in training.

I definitely do not think that all Americans are lazy, or even most Americans. I teach the poor you speak of. They are not lazy. Unfortunately, many do not hold the values that I'm referring to. For example, during "career day" one year I heard the owner of a local food chain speak to the students. His major point to them was that it was very easy to stand out and get ahead in his shops. All you had to do was show up on time. Be reliable. Be friendly to the customers. Be respectful to your manager and never talk back or make excuses that a request isn't your job, etc. It was an interesting outlook to me because I realized that there was hope for a some of my students who were not academic but whom I always pulled for because they were "good kids." But it was also depressing because I have very few who I can describe that way. They may be smart though they are lacking skills, but it will be a long time if ever that they learn a little humility and won't curse out any manager who reprimands them or any customer who gets a little testy.

[Heracles 417]

BOLDED: This was the case in Eastern Europe under communism.

I definitely believe that there should be higher pay for many and perhaps all non-professional jobs in the US. However, I have no problem with a scale depending on many factors, including investment (financial and otherwise) in training.

Don't even attempt to compare Eastern Europe communism to AUS. The first difference is that the free market brought those wages to such levels, rather than some communist government demanding it. If only so many poor states would be like Australia or Canada.

I definitely do not think that all Americans are lazy, or even most Americans. I teach the poor you speak of. They are not lazy. Unfortunately, many do not hold the values that I'm referring to. For example, during "career day" one year I heard the owner of a local food chain speak to the students. His major point to them was that it was very easy to stand out and get ahead in his shops. All you had to do was show up on time. Be reliable. Be friendly to the customers. Be respectful to your manager and never talk back or make excuses that a request isn't your job, etc. It was an interesting outlook to me because I realized that there was hope for a some of my students who were not academic but whom I always pulled for because they were "good kids." But it was also depressing because I have very few who I can describe that way. They may be smart though they are lacking skills, but it will be a long time if ever that they learn a little humility and won't curse out any manager who reprimands them or any customer who gets a little testy.

Anyone who has read my posts over the years knows I will be the first to talk about the bad attitude of many here, particularly the younger generation. Ignoring these fools and allowing foreigners to do the work is not the answer. Doing so only creates an entire range of new and other problems. We have schools that attempt to teach kids algebra, even though many don't even have any common sense, common courtesy, empathy for others or even how to act like normal functioning members of society.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Unfortunately many in America are suckered into believing that college is the and all be all. One lady I heard of had $200k in student loan debt.

This is interesting because it links into the unskilled thread. Not going to college is just no longer a viable option in America. I have numerous friends and family that are millionaires in AUS doing their own blue-collar work, with most owning their own small business. Whereas, unless they hired illegals and exploited them too, they'd be dirt poor doing the same work [themselves] here.

Almost no one on welfare has a college degree. Nothing futher to discuss.

Education is the key to a person's future. If you do not believe so for your children that is fine. If you think your uneducated children can make that decision, fine. Ours can't. They do not have enough education or experience to decide that. Our children do not make that decision, we do. They will all have college degrees, preferably masters degrees. We, Alla and I, will make that decision. I see no advantage to ceasing sooner than that.

I do not know if other children cannot handle a college education. I believe they can. Ours can. I do not believe any children are unable to handle a college education. You do. You have lower expectations and beliefs in children than I do.

We should not allow, in this country, uneducated children to decide to drop out of school at age 16. It is preposterous. Either require them to finish high school as a bare minimum or end the welfare programs altogether. I will much rather pay for education than welfare.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

BOLDED: This was the case in Eastern Europe under communism.

I definitely believe that there should be higher pay for many and perhaps all non-professional jobs in the US. However, I have no problem with a scale depending on many factors, including investment (financial and otherwise) in training.

I definitely do not think that all Americans are lazy, or even most Americans. I teach the poor you speak of. They are not lazy. Unfortunately, many do not hold the values that I'm referring to. For example, during "career day" one year I heard the owner of a local food chain speak to the students. His major point to them was that it was very easy to stand out and get ahead in his shops. All you had to do was show up on time. Be reliable. Be friendly to the customers. Be respectful to your manager and never talk back or make excuses that a request isn't your job, etc. It was an interesting outlook to me because I realized that there was hope for a some of my students who were not academic but whom I always pulled for because they were "good kids." But it was also depressing because I have very few who I can describe that way. They may be smart though they are lacking skills, but it will be a long time if ever that they learn a little humility and won't curse out any manager who reprimands them or any customer who gets a little testy.

What? Now you will tell us about the Soviet Union? Education in the Soviet Union was paramount. Say what you will but they paid for college through any level you wanted attend. The former Sviet Republics still do. It was expected that you went to college, 5 years. If you did not go to college, you wet to a trade school, this was AFTER finishing high school. I am not aware of anyone that didn't finish high school. With half the population of the United States they had 10 times the students studying AP math courses! Our 8th grade son was promoted to 10th grade 2 months after starting school here. Our 19 year old is in his 3rd year of a 5 year masters program in the top physics school in the former Soviet Union, the same school where their rocket scientists studied and they are the ONLY other country with a manned space program.

The pay scales had nothing to do with education. They were mandated by the communist government and are still depressed by the same socialist programs.

You can just confine your low expectations to your own children and the students you teach. Lucky them.

Am I mistaken or were you the same person that kept your children home because it was 30 degrees outside, you hadn't bought them coats and you thought they would be cold? Was that you? I think it was the same day my kid went to the bus stop at -15 F. and then went snowmobiling after school. I remeber thinking..."30 degrees?...that's like APRIL or early MAY or something"

[Heracles 417]

Almost no one on welfare has a college degree. Nothing futher to discuss.

Education is the key to a person's future. If you do not believe so for your children that is fine. If you think your uneducated children can make that decision, fine. Ours can't. They do not have enough education or experience to decide that. Our children do not make that decision, we do. They will all have college degrees, preferably masters degrees. We, Alla and I, will make that decision. I see no advantage to ceasing sooner than that.

I do not know if other children cannot handle a college education. I believe they can. Ours can. I do not believe any children are unable to handle a college education. You do. You have lower expectations and beliefs in children than I do.

We should not allow, in this country, uneducated children to decide to drop out of school at age 16. It is preposterous. Either require them to finish high school as a bare minimum or end the welfare programs altogether. I will much rather pay for education than welfare.

I never said there is anything wrong with education. What I am saying is that it's not for everyone and should not be made out to be the only option for a salary over $40K.

You act as if Americans receive welfare to the likes of Brits or even Australians. Who in their right mind would want to live on measly US welfare?

[TBoneTX 47,050]

Who in their right mind would want to live on measly US welfare?

Those who weren't inoculated against the measlies?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

BOLDED: This was the case in Eastern Europe under communism.

I definitely believe that there should be higher pay for many and perhaps all non-professional jobs in the US. However, I have no problem with a scale depending on many factors, including investment (financial and otherwise) in training.

I definitely do not think that all Americans are lazy, or even most Americans. I teach the poor you speak of. They are not lazy. Unfortunately, many do not hold the values that I'm referring to. For example, during "career day" one year I heard the owner of a local food chain speak to the students. His major point to them was that it was very easy to stand out and get ahead in his shops. All you had to do was show up on time. Be reliable. Be friendly to the customers. Be respectful to your manager and never talk back or make excuses that a request isn't your job, etc. It was an interesting outlook to me because I realized that there was hope for a some of my students who were not academic but whom I always pulled for because they were "good kids." But it was also depressing because I have very few who I can describe that way. They may be smart though they are lacking skills, but it will be a long time if ever that they learn a little humility and won't curse out any manager who reprimands them or any customer who gets a little testy.

I have been at this career business a long time, enough to be semi-retired and I'll let you in on a secret. In order to be successful, in order to stand out, in order to rise to the top, in order to make a lot of money, do you know what you need to do? IN ANY job? With ANY education?

Show up on time, Be reliable. Be friendly to the customer(s), be respectful to your manager, never talk back, never make excuses, never say it is "not your job". What's the big secret? Show me a job that isn't that way. Show me a CEO with triple masters degrees that doesn't do those things.

Your problem is your incredibly low expectations of the children you teach. Very sad. Teachers really need to get out in the "for profit" world for a whle.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I never said there is anything wrong with education. What I am saying is that it's not for everyone and should not be made out to be the only option for a salary over $40K.

You act as if Americans receive welfare to the likes of Brits or even Australians. Who in their right mind would want to live on measly US welfare?

Did I say everyone? Anywhere? I thought I said "OUR children" That means the children in OUR family. My family. Let me check...yes that is what I said. You have a problem with Alla and I deciding our children will have at least a 4 year college education? What is the problem? I specifically allowed that if YOU do not demand a college education of YOUR children, it is fine by me. My kids will need someone to earn wages working for them, I am sure. Your kids can apply.