Teenager Gets 25-Year Sentence in Hate Crime Killing on Long Island

[Peikko 1,575]

Reread everything I've said here...I've repeated myself a zillion times already.

Obviously you think you have clearly articulated a different argument than the one you actually have if you think my posts do not reflect what you mean. As I said, try again, please.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Nope. And I'm starting to feel like a fool, trying to describe from the ground up the present-day texture of a society built on absolute inequality. I mean, really?

I think perhaps when you're a member of a majority group, it's harder to see the embedded realities that inform and restrict potential. For instance, never having seen someone who resembles you leading the country until a year and a half ago. Not having had the opportunity to be inspired by the example of an ancestor, because those ancestors didn't have the chance to do much else beyond be black, stay alive, and die. Getting refused service or being passed over for a job because of assumptions about your race isn't the whole picture, although that's still a reality too.

Just because voting rights have been secured and it is no longer legal to deny service or opportunity because of race doesn't mean that racism isn't still perpetuated in quiet and not so quiet ways every day--sometimes in ways the perpetrator can't even see. It's an atmosphere of undermining and it has effects on multiple levels. That's what it means when something is systemic--it's so embedded into the fabric of life, it becomes almost impossible to parse and address. So we do our best, try to be as aware as possible, and keep working.

I guess I'm so far "left" on this that I'm shocked that if people don't believe in the impact of all this, they might just move along. Instead, there's actual anger and backlash, as if the rights of the majority are being eroded by acknowledgment of these issues. I'm lost.

It's not as bad as you think and the discrimination works across the board against all walks of life. There's pre-conceived notions in every day life against everyone based on the way you are dressed, based on your haircut, your earrings, your tattoos, how many jobs you've had, how long you stayed with previous jobs, how inexperienced you are, how over experienced you are, what type of car you drive, what neighborhood you live in, where you were born, how many parents you had growing up, your credit report, etc.

The fact of the matter is, EVERYONE has a point and time in their lives where they can be discriminated against.

A poor black person has the same chances are a poor white person if the individual is willing to work for it. Just the same goes for both races. There has to be a willingness to do so. White parents can be just as bad on white kids as black parents can be on black kids in pushing them to better themselves or not.

What's amazing to me, is you're more likely to work with a black person in the south than you are in the north. Yet the north is the one that has the conceived notions that black people are discriminated against more in the south. It's quite the opposite the it's apparent in every day life. The 'racial bias' roles have flipped from one side of the country to another and most are too blind to even pay attention to it.

Let's not get into the discrimination against whites and the destruction of our education system in part to affirmative action. How actual qualified individuals are put on the back burner because someone less qualified was the highest qualified of another race.

This isn't a 'left' or 'right' issue, and it's not about making things better for a particular race. You're just as likely to be living in poverty if you grow up poor and white, as you are if you're poor and black. The only possible argument that could be made against this is the 'culture' that is put onto blacks, but if you look at whites in then 'hood' then you'll see many of them are the exact same as the blacks and there are plenty of black people who choose not to associate and avoid the stereotypical culture as well.

The only reason why it all seems like it's worse than what it really is, is because the media makes money off of it, authors make money off of it, singers make money off of it. The reality is, it's just as bad across the board, if not worse for whites than it is for blacks. With the exceptions of primarily black cities like Detroit and Atlanta where the population percentage makes its adjustments accordingly.

[twowls 217]

It's not as bad as you think and the discrimination works across the board against all walks of life. There's pre-conceived notions in every day life against everyone based on the way you are dressed, based on your haircut, your earrings, your tattoos, how many jobs you've had, how long you stayed with previous jobs, how inexperienced you are, how over experienced you are, what type of car you drive, what neighborhood you live in, where you were born, how many parents you had growing up, your credit report, etc.

The fact of the matter is, EVERYONE has a point and time in their lives where they can be discriminated against.

A poor black person has the same chances are a poor white person if the individual is willing to work for it. Just the same goes for both races. There has to be a willingness to do so. White parents can be just as bad on white kids as black parents can be on black kids in pushing them to better themselves or not.

What's amazing to me, is you're more likely to work with a black person in the south than you are in the north. Yet the north is the one that has the conceived notions that black people are discriminated against more in the south. It's quite the opposite the it's apparent in every day life. The 'racial bias' roles have flipped from one side of the country to another and most are too blind to even pay attention to it.

Let's not get into the discrimination against whites and the destruction of our education system in part to affirmative action. How actual qualified individuals are put on the back burner because someone less qualified was the highest qualified of another race.

This isn't a 'left' or 'right' issue, and it's not about making things better for a particular race. You're just as likely to be living in poverty if you grow up poor and white, as you are if you're poor and black. The only possible argument that could be made against this is the 'culture' that is put onto blacks, but if you look at whites in then 'hood' then you'll see many of them are the exact same as the blacks and there are plenty of black people who choose not to associate and avoid the stereotypical culture as well.

The only reason why it all seems like it's worse than what it really is, is because the media makes money off of it, authors make money off of it, singers make money off of it. The reality is, it's just as bad across the board, if not worse for whites than it is for blacks. With the exceptions of primarily black cities like Detroit and Atlanta where the population percentage makes its adjustments accordingly.

Okay. I don't think we'll find a middle ground here. But it's interesting to hear how you perceive it.

[GabiandVi 34]

Obviously you think you have clearly articulated a different argument than the one you actually have if you think my posts do not reflect what you mean. As I said, try again, please.

Cleo understands what you have said better than you understand what you have said. She also understands what she says better than you understand what she says. When she can't get your point, it is because you don't express yourself clearly. When you point out that she is contradicting herself, it is because you don't understand what she says.

She also understands US law better than you do. You are too crass to understand it as well as she does.

[CDAgirlMI 51]

Capital Murder (1st Degree): Death.

Second-Degree Murder: Eligible For Parole after 20 years. Sentenced to 40 years.

Manslaughter: Parole after 8 years. Sentenced to 15 years.

Would be easy enough!

Sounds good to me.

[Heracles 417]

Actually, I grew up near the Appalachians, in poverty, and am still in poverty. So I do understand that reality, and I happen to think that poor people of all races have more in common than people of a shared race that exist across a spectrum of economic power and should join forces. But that's a distinct issue and a red herring in the context of this conversation.

To your second paragraph, reality doesn't bear that out. The U.S. doesn't turn a blind eye to the actions of minority communities--quite the opposite, demonstrably. Blacks and Latinos are routinely and systematically targeted for greater scrutiny and are therefore punished with greater "efficiency" than members of the majority group.

And this: "Someone who is poor and black has the same opportunity as someone who is poor and White." If that's what you believe, then there's nothing I can say to open up the dialogue. You seem to be arguing, with this statement, that racism against minorities does not in fact exist or, if it exists, has no impact at all. Carry on.

Okay let's try this another way. Can you tell me where and how you specifically feel minorities are being discriminated against in 2010? What opportunities do they not have access to? Perhaps, you can even enlighten me on why you feel they congregate around cities and cry poor rather than taking simple steps, like moving to where the jobs are, to improve their quality of life. After all, this is America and not some UK, you have to actually work to get ahead here.

The scrutiny you talk about is due to the more prevalent crime rates within those communities. While you may consider in not PC, it's a waste of time focusing on Japanese-Americans or Indian-Americans who have anemic crime rates next to their name.

I am also keen on hearing what and how you would propose America best fix this grotesque inequality.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Booyah!

[Heracles 417]

Cleo understands what you have said better than you understand what you have said. She also understands what she says better than you understand what she says. When she can't get your point, it is because you don't express yourself clearly. When you point out that she is contradicting herself, it is because you don't understand what she says.

She also understands US law better than you do. You are too crass to understand it as well as she does.

Cleo has a history of failing to comprehend (grasp) other points of view and then gets upset at the person making the point.

[ScottThuy 140]

Rehabilitation=

[Peikko 1,575]

Any one that can put forward the facile argument that 'all murderers have hatred in their hearts' as a rationale behind not wanting to have hate crimes as a unique category necessarily lacks the sophistication to comprehend the arguments for such a classification. It is what it is. Those of you who want to have a love fest with Cleo this and Cleo that, have at it, enjoy. It does nothing to further your argument but that's not the point of such posts, I know

Cleo has a history of failing to comprehend (grasp) other points of view and then gets upset at the person making the point.

BY, you have singularly failed to elicit even a mild emotional upset by your crazy reasoning skills. I find you amusing for sure, but upset by not understanding your point of view? Not at all, I understand it all too well.

[twowls 217]

Okay let's try this another way. Can you tell me where and how you specifically feel minorities are being discriminated against in 2010? What opportunities do they not have access to? Perhaps, you can even enlighten me on why you feel they congregate around cities and cry poor rather than taking simple steps, like moving to where the jobs are, to improve their quality of life. After all, this is America and not some UK, you have to actually work to get ahead here.

The scrutiny you talk about is due to the more prevalent crime rates within those communities. While you may consider in not PC, it's a waste of time focusing on Japanese-Americans or Indian-Americans who have anemic crime rates next to their name.

I am also keen on hearing what and how you would propose America best fix this grotesque inequality.

I wrote quite a long (as usual) explanation of how systemic racism works, but I think that the premise you're coming from is too diametrically opposed to mine to warrant good faith attempts to explain the vast interworkings in this thread. If you're genuinely curious, I can recommend some reading for you so you may do your own research and integrate the information on your own steam.

The basics go like this: after nominal equality, systemic racism takes the form of a quieter, arguably more pervasive atmosphere of discrimination and undermining. In that form, it bolsters covert racism and discrimination because it becomes much easier to deny its existence. And prejudice thrives in denial. It's like Miracle-Gro for intolerance and dangerously simplified assessments of complex systems.

You seem to, when presented with a set of superficial realities, work to place the sole responsibility for those realities with specific races, disconnected from social or historical context and societal influence and forces, and with a fair amount of outright denial or ignorance of the experience of those races. I find that fundamentally flawed.

We can agree to disagree now.