So, What's the Real Reason Liberals Want to Take Away Your Guns?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

sounds like someone does a little bit too much of a drug called self-importance with a chaser of self-impress

Well, you should lay that off.

[Dan T 8]

Well, you should lay that off.

in profound eddy izzard wisdom...."quoi?"

[Dan J 277]

actually, this is true in principle, but the statement ignores the fact that experiments with controlled variables have been done, and are ongoing as restrictions are lifted across the country. removing concealed carry prohibitions and allowing people to arm themselves legally can be seen as an independent variable. lower crime rates in the same areas can be seen as a dependent variable.

the iconic experiment in regard to the question of whether an armed populace will reduce criminal assault occured in south florida in teh early 80's the year after cuba emptied it's jails into boats with maps to America. the rape rate went up 800% in dade county in one year, and was reduced below the pre-incident levels the following year by the county sherrif's widely publicised invitation to county women to come to the sherrif's range for free training and ammunition, and an installment purchase plan on a service revolver. raping became a dangerous profession in dade county, so the rapists moved elsewhere, or began to pay for services rendered with professionals.

hard to find a cert on this, as it predates google, but those of us who were adults and interested in such topics remember reading about it in the American Rifleman and Shooting Times, and seeing reports of this series of events on the national news.

So in this "controlled experiment" what is the control group?

[Dan T 8]

So in this "controlled experiment" what is the control group?

i think the experiment he is talking about is more akin to an algebraic equation as opposed to a controlled experiment likened to a drug trial.

[justashooter 430]

So in this "controlled experiment" what is the control group?

the control groups are the cities in which prohibition of concealed carry remains.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

i have training in close quarters combat with and without weapons, disarm, weapons retention, etc, and would still rather have a gun of my own in any gunfight.

i trained to disarm an individual standing 2-6 feet away from me with a gun pointed at my chest, and passed the simunitions test repeatedly. my redirect of the aim of the attacker's gun was faster than his startled respone time to trigger pull, and the subsequent moves to break his lower arm and to disarm are also well practiced. do i want to bet my life on this? no way. if i ever find a need to use these skills, it means that i have failed to remain situationally aware, and allowed an assailant to gain the advantage. my gun should always be out before or at the same moment as his, and i should not hesitate to pull the trigger, as he probably will.

first rule of gunfighting, bring a gun.

You can disarm a guy pointing a gun at your chest from up to 6 feet away? Don't make me laugh - you aren't Jason Bourne or James Bond. I'm not saying it can't be done, but unless you can distract the guy's attention the odds of you doing that are seriously against you, no matter how much training you've allegedly had.

a knife I can handle no problem, i have been trained in this and am at least 95% confident I could respond with force and survive. A gun I also have training in but am less than 30% confident. I have no wish to interfere with your exercise of your 2nd ammendmant rights I merely wished to state that I choose not to exercise mine. If there was a reliable way to disarm thugs, or junkies as you call em, I would perhaps support diminishing the 2nd ammendment somewhat. I am aware, however, that such a disarmament is next to impossible to implement and I am therefore against any attempt to disarm law abiding citizens from arming themselves to their hearts content in order to preserve their own life, and family's life. read my whole post next time before you react i think youll find that we are not in opposition

Several Martial Arts teachers I have had have told me that if someone attacks you with a knife that it is very difficult to defend against, and none that I know of would say with absolute confidence that they could do it.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I do think that if it were possible and/or plausible to reliably disarm all criminals there would be no need for law abiding citizens to own a gun in order to provide for their own defense, or at least a severely diminished need.

That's really the fallacy though isn't it. Why is there this assumption that a gun is "necessary" for self-defence? Is society really that dangerous that we need a gun simply to feel safe in the outside world? Never having needed one its rather difficult to see such arguments as anything other than exercises in paranoia.

Naturally, self-defence has little to do with the second amendment. Discussions about gun politics on this board usually go down the direction of self-defence because that's the only practical application for owning one that people can come up with (other than being a hunter or target shooter etc). Yet this has nothing whatsoever to do with the constitutional reasons - specifically owning a gun to perhaps, one day, take back the government.

It's hard to argue practicality from a constitutional point of view because the US doesn't have totalitarian government.

[Justine+David 218]

Well, the British tend to have much stricter gun control and people aren't dying left and right there...

It's a freaking gun. I don't want anything to do with such a dangerous weapon as much as other people think it's a cool toy. One of my best girlfriends' husband has a gun with a concealed license and it makes me extremely nervous when he's around with it.

[Dan T 8]

Well, the British tend to have much stricter gun control and people aren't dying left and right there...

It's a freaking gun. I don't want anything to do with such a dangerous weapon as much as other people think it's a cool toy. One of my best girlfriends' husband has a gun with a concealed license and it makes me extremely nervous when he's around with it.

well i think you better check current stats on gun violence in britain because their strict gun laws have not kept them safe by any stretch of the immagination. ireland is no different. criminals have guns, rank and file cops do not. Do the stricter laws prevent situations of kids accidently finding it and shooting themselves? maybe so but the criminals still manage to get them into the country. now maybe you personally dont come into contact with criminals very often, or maybe perhaps never so far as you are aware, but we dont all live in safe neighborhoods and until my govt can gaurentee me that no criminal can ever own a gun I support my fellow citizens right to own one fully. dont get me wrong, guns also make me nervous, and i refuse to own one myself despite the fact that I dont live in the safest of places myself. Although I live in a small town of just 40k we have our fair share of gun violence. Im pretty good at avoiding those parts of town though as they are well known. but I would never, well not while gun ownership among criminals is what it is, dream of limiting the rights of law abiding people to own one for their own protection in their back yard.

oh and just a tid bit of information for my american friends to laugh at. toy guns are also illegal in britain. there was a news story a few months ago of a c-store hold up, not sure what part of england. the clerk pulled a toy gun and got the drop on and held the robbers, who had real guns, at "gun" point until police arrived. The robbers and the store clerk were both arrested. what silly nonsense.

It's hard to argue practicality from a constitutional point of view because the US doesn't have totalitarian government.

have you been paying attention to recent events? we're soon headed there.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Dan T

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well, the British tend to have much stricter gun control and people aren't dying left and right there...

It's a freaking gun. I don't want anything to do with such a dangerous weapon as much as other people think it's a cool toy. One of my best girlfriends' husband has a gun with a concealed license and it makes me extremely nervous when he's around with it.

We do have gang crime, and like the US it would probably be accurate to say that the vast majority of gun violence (such as it is) is related to that.

That said, the fact that it exists doesn't make me feel that I need to acquire a gun to defend myself from those people, since I am not really likely to be targeted. Faxt is, unless you get a wholesale breakdown in law and order, gun crime is usually going to be prevalent in the areas in which gang crime takes place (inner cities and tower block estates).

[Dan T 8]

the control groups are the cities in which prohibition of concealed carry remains.

this is not a true controlled experiment in the traditional sense but your point is well received.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

have you been paying attention to recent events? we're soon headed there.

How so? What is it precisely that makes you feel that the US is "soon headed" for totalitarian government?

Has Obama et al repealed large sections of the constitution? Did Bush Jr do that? Did Clinton? Bush Sr? Reagan?

People always have a bad feeling about the direction that government is taking and go off on sky-is-falling tirades about the state of the country, but it hasn't happened yet and doesn't seem to be any more of a possibility now than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

[Dan T 8]

How so? What is it precisely that makes you feel that the US is "soon headed" for totalitarian government?

Has Obama et al repealed large sections of the constitution? Did Bush Jr do that? Did Clinton? Bush Sr? Reagan?

People always have a bad feeling about the direction that government is taking and go off on sky-is-falling tirades about the state of the country, but it hasn't happened yet and doesn't seem to be any more of a possibility now than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

obamas view that the constitution by his own words in 2001 is all i need know about the man.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

obamas view that the constitution by his own words in 2001 is all i need know about the man.

That seems extraordinarily dismissive.

So basically, your opinion boils down to a single quotation and a feeling you have

[Dan T 8]

That seems extraordinarily dismissive.

So basically, your opinion boils down to a single quotation and a feeling you have

and my ability to read between the lines. and the fact that absolutely zero the man has said before or since gives any indication at all that he has respect for this country or the way it ran for the entire 200+ years before he held the office.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Dan T