islamic marriage and recognized

[zahra 11]

I would have to agree with oldahmed on this. Sofiyya, the link to the fatwa you posted does not back up your opinion; “highly crucial” is not the same as required, which I’m sure you are aware of. I respect that your advocacy on this issue is with the intention of protecting the legal rights of the parties involved in these types of relationships, but that should not lead you to misrepresent the facts. You can argue for your own opinion on this matter, clearly stating that it is your opinion, backed up by the credentials you have been waving around, but you cannot say that it is THE ONLY valid opinion. Registering a marriage with the state is not one of the criteria that makes a marriage valid “Islamically.” For you to condemn in such harsh terms the people who engage in such a practice, with accusations of lying and implications of fornication, is unnecessary.

It's out there now. People can pretend to be married in a Muslim country, so they can lay together, then come back to a non-Muslim country and get serious, ofuscate about their "marriage in the eyes of God", and follow non-Muslim law, do a K1, then really get married, if they choose. Knowing Arab cultures, as I do, a Muslim man who would suggest this to a woman doesn't respect her or his faith, as he should. I can't imagine the Prophet recommending this course of action to anyone.

[Staashi 371]

I will say this...just my two little non-muslim cents: should a CO get wind of marriage (Islamic or otherwise) you will be denied. Any type of "marriage" performed between two parties while applying for a K1 is against the rules of USCIS. Should you or your intended incur a home visit from DOS (which isn't unusual with MENA cases), someone in the family or a neighbor might slip up and state that you all were married. Case denied. End of story.

I highly suggest that you all marry in your fiance's homeland and apply for either a K3 or a CR1.

Best of luck!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Oldahmed is wrong and so are you, zahra. I'm not merely interested in the secular legality, I'm also very concerned about the spiritual legality. People say "all" that is required are the elements of a contract and witnesses, but that is simply not true and definitely not only my opinion.

How does it honor God for you to marry "Islamically", and then have to lie about it?

How does it honor God for you to have to marry twice because the psuedo-Islamic way wasn't good enough?

How does it honor God to pervert His intent for you to have an enforcable contract when it is not worth the promises offered or the paper it's written on?

Some of you have no patience or moderation in your dealings with the faith. You play it cheap for the thrill. You cannot justify marrying "Islamically" and having a do over because the first time wasn't as valid as the legal on you do after the visa.

If someone advised a woman here to do the reverse- do the marriage right, so they don't have to lie, then fudge on the visa process, o, the howling there would be. Obeying the laws of the US, and cheapening Islam's requirements is ok, tho. I wonder why.

I would have to agree with oldahmed on this. Sofiyya, the link to the fatwa you posted does not back up your opinion; “highly crucial” is not the same as required, which I’m sure you are aware of. I respect that your advocacy on this issue is with the intention of protecting the legal rights of the parties involved in these types of relationships, but that should not lead you to misrepresent the facts. You can argue for your own opinion on this matter, clearly stating that it is your opinion, backed up by the credentials you have been waving around, but you cannot say that it is THE ONLY valid opinion. Registering a marriage with the state is not one of the criteria that makes a marriage valid “Islamically.” For you to condemn in such harsh terms the people who engage in such a practice, with accusations of lying and implications of fornication, is unnecessary.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

We've had many discussions about how the respectable family of a woman from their own country wouldn't be fake marrying a Muslim man, or shacking up with him in his house or his parents house while visiting, but they will do this stuff with western women. To justify this by excusing something that doesn't meet the requirements or neither God nor man is evil. Why do I care? Because I not only have the creds that keep me from falling for the shortcuts and shams, but years of experience picking up the pieces in court after the promises aren't kept and the women realize that their "marriage" wasn't valid after all. Who else here can say the same?

[oldahmed 38]

Oldahmed is wrong and so are you, zahra. I'm not merely interested in the secular legality, I'm also very concerned about the spiritual legality. People say "all" that is required are the elements of a contract and witnesses, but that is simply not true and definitely not only my opinion.

How does it honor God for you to marry "Islamically", and then have to lie about it?

How does it honor God for you to have to marry twice because the psuedo-Islamic way wasn't good enough?

How does it honor God to pervert His intent for you to have an enforcable contract when it is not worth the promises offered or the paper it's written on?

Some of you have no patience or moderation in your dealings with the faith. You play it cheap for the thrill. You cannot justify marrying "Islamically" and having a do over because the first time wasn't as valid as the legal on you do after the visa.

If someone advised a woman here to do the reverse- do the marriage right, so they don't have to lie, then fudge on the visa process, o, the howling there would be. Obeying the laws of the US, and cheapening Islam's requirements is ok, tho. I wonder why.

I stopped responding to you because my first post was to answer the original poster's question, then I figured out that at the course this thread is going, she will not get a clear view, thus better go check with a reliable source.

"How does it honor God for you to marry "Islamically", and then have to lie about it?"

You don't have to lie about it. There are two standards here, by the Islamic standards, the person is married. by the US standard he/she is not since what they recognize is the civil marriage.

"How does it honor God for you to have to marry twice because the pseudo-Islamic way wasn't good enough?"

In all Muslim countries I know of, you have to do the marriage ceremony twice, Islamic marriage, and civil marriage. This is done in the US two, isn't it? or enough for you the civil marriage?

"How does it honor God to pervert His intent for you to have an enforcable contract when it is not worth the promises offered or the paper it's written on?"

You still didn't answer my question from a previous post on what is an enforcable contract. I hope that since you mentioned that you have a PhD in Islamic studies, at least you use some Islamic arguments so that we understand on what you base your "opinion"

[oldahmed 38]

Oldahmed is wrong and so are you, zahra. I'm not merely interested in the secular legality, I'm also very concerned about the spiritual legality. People say "all" that is required are the elements of a contract and witnesses, but that is simply not true and definitely not only my opinion.

How does it honor God for you to marry "Islamically", and then have to lie about it?

How does it honor God for you to have to marry twice because the psuedo-Islamic way wasn't good enough?

How does it honor God to pervert His intent for you to have an enforcable contract when it is not worth the promises offered or the paper it's written on?

Some of you have no patience or moderation in your dealings with the faith. You play it cheap for the thrill. You cannot justify marrying "Islamically" and having a do over because the first time wasn't as valid as the legal on you do after the visa.

If someone advised a woman here to do the reverse- do the marriage right, so they don't have to lie, then fudge on the visa process, o, the howling there would be. Obeying the laws of the US, and cheapening Islam's requirements is ok, tho. I wonder why.

"Some of you have no patience or moderation in your dealings with the faith"

"Oldahmed is wrong and so are you, zahra"

It seems to me that's you have no room for other opinions. It's your opinion and no other, even though you failed to prove that what you're saying is right. Even the link you gave contradicts you, but still everybody is wrong.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't have time now to respond properly, but I will respond. In the meantime, oldahmed, tell me something about yourself and where you get your info from?

[Nothing1234 2]

These Islamic (0rfi) marriage threads are always a ton of fun!

Sofiyya is very passionate and is trying to explain to the "view" of others in a foreign country. How they will look upon you and your decisions. Since most that come here for advice are asking because they lack the knowledge of what is culturally acceptable and illegal overseas, I think she shared some very good advice/opinions and many of her points should be taken into consideration before making a big decision like that whether you agree with her completely or not.

Ultimately, it is that couple’s choice what their next steps will be. Hopefully they would take into account the possibilities of a CO finding out, considering it marriage and denying the visa. If they are willing to take the risk, all power to them.

Signed,

The Girl Who Put Her Cart Before Her Horses

[morocco4ever 63]

"I love being married. It's so great to find that one special person you want to annoy for the rest of your life. =) I have finally found him! "

Annie....love it!

As for the topic I love these threads! One thing I do know is that if my husband had wanted me to marry him this way he certainly didn't have any respect for me. He has told me his opinion of them, and that tells me what I wanted to know. I certainly can't speak for anyone else however.

[ya hayat alby ♥ 0]

Orfi marriage is not Islamic AT ALL.

If an American marries a man in Egypt in the masjid, and something goes wrong with her marriage before they register it in the US or Egypt, she will not have rights by the Egyptian/American law. I think that is the problem Sofiyya is trying to address. Some Egyptians might do that Islamic marriage and that is fine, because they have a lot of family there to back them up and those issues won't come up. But if you are a citizen of another country, you are on your own. You should follow the law of the land if you are in to ensure your rights are fulfilled. As for Islam, marriage is an important matter and any and everything should be done correctly to ensure the woman's rights.

[zahra 11]

I think there are a few different issues here that are getting intertwined. The first is related to the visa: it seems like doing this kind of marriage before applying for a K1 visa involves misrepresentation or lying to the US government, which could have serious consequences. The second is cultural: it seems that the Egyptian state does not recognize this type of marriage or enforce its contract (I don't know anything about what is being referred to here as "orfi"). Therefore, naive American women should be protected from getting themselves into a situation where their rights will not be protected and they might be taken advantage of; I completely agree. The third issue is a strictly legal (Islamic) issue, and has to do with whether or not this type of marriage is a legitimate marriage within Islam, by which a Muslim believes they are doing what is right in the eyes of God, and the family, community, and religious authorities recognize the union. My only point was that if the requirements of the Islamic marriage are met (which do not involve registering it with the state; this is a requirement of the government), then the marriage is valid Islamically. I think in this discussion the three issues (immigration, cultural practices, and Islamic legality) are being brought together in a confusing way. "Picking up the pieces in court" - this is not making a legal argument; I'm sure many could testify to "picking up the pieces" after a disastrous divorce, and yet this is not an argument to try to ban divorce.

People can be warned from doing this kind of marriage in the visa process based US immigration law, and they can be warned about it by advising about cultural practices that put a woman's legal rights in jeopardy. But an (Islamic) legal argument cannot be made against the practice IF it meets the requirements of a valid marriage according to whatever school you follow. And God knows best.

[sara535 15]

I'm too lazy to actually research it out, but it seems to me that in my years on VJ I have seen people approved for the K1 even when there has been a religious ceremony already - not just in MENA but I am thinking maybe in India this happens also? I believe in the eyes of the USCIS they are concerned more with a legally recognized/documented marriage than with a religious ceremony....

[ya hayat alby ♥ 0]

I think it can definitely be argued Islamically though, because back in the Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) time the community was like a legal matter. They would enforce it by word and it was crucial to the contract. Now it isn't like that anymore and the state is needed to reinforce those rights. Any marriage that could potentially put the wife in danger, would definitely be something considered not allowed.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Thank you to the ladies who stood up for my points. I appreciate that very much. The women who have been here a while know that this is an issue I am rather tenacious about because it really ticks me off to see Islam and unknowing women abused by my fellow Muslims. I have counseled mixed faith couples in the traditions and variances of Muslim marriage law for more than 15 years. I was a human rights advocate in the Middle East and North Africa for more than 20 years. For the last 6 years, I've contracted with a private think tank as a researcher and teacher, consulting with many of the Muslim jurists and attorneys I worked with in those areas. In that capacity, part of my job involves advising professionals doing business in the ME re Arab cultural norms and legalisms. It is from this background that I offer advice and information from a Sunni perspective.

When I refer to picking up the pieces in court, I'm not talking about my own heartbreak, but of those who I have seen and/or supported thru their own ordeals caused by a lack of understanding of what they've gotten themselves into. Sometimes this is about divorce, but sometimes, it's about proving that they were ever married at all. The elements commonly cited for the nikah - offer, considerations, acceptance, witnesses - are only the minimal requirements for a ceremony, and do not constitute the whole of what makes a Muslim marriage Islamic or legitimate. Islamic fiqh is real law, with real rights, responsibilities and consequences that can vary from region to region. Marriage contracts that do not allow you to file for a K3 or CR1, as some promote erroneously, do not do the job. I will try to explain why.

As was pointed out before, marriage in Islam is a social contract. The basic elements of any contract are offer, consideration, acceptance and witnesses, so the marriage not be secret. However, that is not all that's required to make a nikah legally binding, and scholars do discuss this in articles and books aimmed to those involved in Muslim family law. We see a lot of misinformation being distributed, like, what can be personalized in the contract, whether or not a wali must be present, if an imam required to perform the ceremony. I do my best to try to discourage western women from engaging in practices they are not knowlegable enough to understand, and, as a contract is a legality, this is an area where knowledge is power.

Nikah contracts are valid only if they conform to the sharia, and cannot include conditions that are contrary to the sharia, or to the requirements of the jurisdictional madhab in which they are executed. Local traditions can impose obligations on the couple, too. None of this has to be enumberated in the contract to be binding upon you. There are websites and articles that claim that customizations can be made in a contract to suit the couple's desires. For example, if a woman wishes to prevent her intended from taking on other wives, she may ask him to agree to contractually forgo that option. However, if the madhab that holds legal sway over the area where they married considers multiple marriage to be a Muslim man's God-given right, it will not allow a wife to forbid her husband another wife. So, that provision is null and void, thus, unenforcable. In such a case, her husband will be free to marry another, and her only available recourse may be to take a khul to divorce, and perhaps, give back her mahr.

A Muslim husband is forbidden by sharia to allow a non-Muslim wife to inherit from him at his death. In case of divorce, minor children may be given to their father, with few rights to their mother, something to consider if you travel to his country with your kids. Know that a husband can divorce at will, while a wife must have grounds that are adjudicated by jurists. If your contract doesn't take these things into consideration, it may well be Islamically invalid, making your relationship - and sexual contact - haraam.

Narrated 'Uqba: The Prophet said: "The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract)." - Sahih Buhkari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 81

The central requirement of a nikah contract is the mahr. There are often set requirements for how much or how little the mahr can be, sometimes based on the status of the woman. A substantive understanding of what the local madhab requires is essential, for the mahr can make or break a contract. Why? Because a nikah is a contract for sexual intimacy, and it is the mahr that makes sexual contact halal. In several jurisdictions, fiqh actually measures the value of a woman and allots her mahr accordingly. The mahr for a virgin can be set higher than one for a widow, divorcee or fornicator. How this is to be determined can vary. If your mahr does not conform to the controlling law in the jurisdiction of your contract, you are not married, period. Since the primary reason given for entering unto unregistered "marriages" is to facilitate carnal knowledge.

Few western women who go to another country to meet with a Muslim man they are considering to marriage are going to be aware of which madhab controls their contract, which local customs bind them and how, or what validates a mahr. They may not know if the imam in the neighborhood masjid is authorized to marry, or even if marrying in a masjid is necessary. If the man is already married, and she is not informed that she will be a second wife, with lesser rights to the first wife, finding out later can be a serious drag. In recent years, Egypt, in particular, has shown how the embrace of unregistered "urfi marriages" has been a disaster for women who could not register children sired by fathers who denied them. Even there, for these contracts to have the force of law, or allow for divorce, they must be registered.

And, yes, there have been beneficiaries who have lost out on a visa, or even received one, but been refused entry into the US because of a fake marriage. If you believe that Allah has blessed your "Islamic marriage" to the point where you are halal alone together, why shouldn't USCIS know that you are married, not that you just had a ceremony, but the real marriage is yet to come? If you can come here and declare that you have a husband in Islam, but you are filing for a K1, what does that really say about your union that you didn't bother to go all the way? A growing number of scholars recommend legalizing nikahs with the state, especially if the woman is non-Muslim. And, if you are marrying in a Muslim country, what is the excuse for not doing as most Muslims there do? Are you special or something?

I'll bet that few women who fake married in MENA know the madhab they married in, what local stipulations are binding, but not on paper, and what methodology they would have to employ to divorce, if needed. I'll bet most who divorced civilly didn't bother to divorce Islamically, although they married "Islamically" with great enthusasim. The capricious nature of these unions, entered into so often with naivete, leads me to such a conclusion. If I am wrong, that would be nice to know.

I apologize for sounding harsh or judgmental, for I am more frustrated than self-righteous in my intent. Frustrated both for the women involved and for our great faith, with limits and obligations that are often not taken as seriously as they deserve to be, and which is frequently presented as a means of obtaining spiritual permission to do as you please.

May Allah guide us all.

I think there are a few different issues here that are getting intertwined. The first is related to the visa: it seems like doing this kind of marriage before applying for a K1 visa involves misrepresentation or lying to the US government, which could have serious consequences. The second is cultural: it seems that the Egyptian state does not recognize this type of marriage or enforce its contract (I don't know anything about what is being referred to here as "orfi"). Therefore, naive American women should be protected from getting themselves into a situation where their rights will not be protected and they might be taken advantage of; I completely agree. The third issue is a strictly legal (Islamic) issue, and has to do with whether or not this type of marriage is a legitimate marriage within Islam, by which a Muslim believes they are doing what is right in the eyes of God, and the family, community, and religious authorities recognize the union. My only point was that if the requirements of the Islamic marriage are met (which do not involve registering it with the state; this is a requirement of the government), then the marriage is valid Islamically. I think in this discussion the three issues (immigration, cultural practices, and Islamic legality) are being brought together in a confusing way. "Picking up the pieces in court" - this is not making a legal argument; I'm sure many could testify to "picking up the pieces" after a disastrous divorce, and yet this is not an argument to try to ban divorce.

People can be warned from doing this kind of marriage in the visa process based US immigration law, and they can be warned about it by advising about cultural practices that put a woman's legal rights in jeopardy. But an (Islamic) legal argument cannot be made against the practice IF it meets the requirements of a valid marriage according to whatever school you follow. And God knows best.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Sofiyya

[aisha kandisha 0]

Thank you to the ladies who stood up for my points. I appreciate that very much. The women who have been here a while know that this is an issue I am rather tenacious about because it really ticks me off to see Islam and unknowing women abused by my fellow Muslims. I have counseled mixed faith couples in the traditions and variances of Muslim marriage law for more than 15 years. I was a human rights advocate in the Middle East and North Africa for more than 20 years. For the last 6 years, I've contracted with a private think tank as a researcher and teacher, consulting with many of the Muslim jurists and attorneys I worked with in those areas. In that capacity, part of my job involves advising professionals doing business in the ME re Arab cultural norms and legalisms. It is from this background that I offer advice and information from a Sunni perspective.

When I refer to picking up the pieces in court, I'm not talking about my own heartbreak, but of those who I have seen and/or supported thru their own ordeals caused by a lack of understanding of what they've gotten themselves into. Sometimes this is about divorce, but sometimes, it's about proving that they were ever married at all. The elements commonly cited for the nikah - offer, considerations, acceptance, witnesses - are only the minimal requirements for a ceremony, and do not constitute the whole of what makes a Muslim marriage Islamic or legitimate. Islamic fiqh is real law, with real rights, responsibilities and consequences that can vary from region to region. Marriage contracts that do not allow you to file for a K3 or CR1, as some promote erroneously, do not do the job. I will try to explain why.

As was pointed out before, marriage in Islam is a social contract. The basic elements of any contract are offer, consideration, acceptance and witnesses, so the marriage not be secret. However, that is not all that's required to make a nikah legally binding, and scholars do discuss this in articles and books aimmed to those involved in Muslim family law. We see a lot of misinformation being distributed, like, what can be personalized in the contract, whether or not a wali must be present, if an imam required to perform the ceremony. I do my best to try to discourage western women from engaging in practices they are not knowlegable enough to understand, and, as a contract is a legality, this is an area where knowledge is power.

Nikah contracts are valid only if they conform to the sharia, and cannot include conditions that are contrary to the sharia, or to the requirements of the jurisdictional madhab in which they are executed. Local traditions can impose obligations on the couple, too. None of this has to be enumberated in the contract to be binding upon you. There are websites and articles that claim that customizations can be made in a contract to suit the couple's desires. For example, if a woman wishes to prevent her intended from taking on other wives, she may ask him to agree to contractually forgo that option. However, if the madhab that holds legal sway over the area where they married considers multiple marriage to be a Muslim man's God-given right, it will not allow a wife to forbid her husband another wife. So, that provision is null and void, thus, unenforcable. In such a case, her husband will be free to marry another, and her only available recourse may be to take a khul to divorce, and perhaps, give back her mahr.

A Muslim husband is forbidden by sharia to allow a non-Muslim wife to inherit from him at his death. In case of divorce, minor children may be given to their father, with few rights to their mother, something to consider if you travel to his country with your kids. Know that a husband can divorce at will, while a wife must have grounds that are adjudicated by jurists. If your contract doesn't take these things into consideration, it may well be Islamically invalid, making your relationship - and sexual contact - haraam.

Narrated 'Uqba: The Prophet said: "The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract)." - Sahih Buhkari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 81

The central requirement of a nikah contract is the mahr. There are often set requirements for how much or how little the mahr can be, sometimes based on the status of the woman. A substantive understanding of what the local madhab requires is essential, for the mahr can make or break a contract. Why? Because a nikah is a contract for sexual intimacy, and it is the mahr that makes sexual contact halal. In several jurisdictions, fiqh actually measures the value of a woman and allots her mahr accordingly. The mahr for a virgin can be set higher than one for a widow, divorcee or fornicator. How this is to be determined can vary. If your mahr does not conform to the controlling law in the jurisdiction of your contract, you are not married, period. Since the primary reason given for entering unto unregistered "marriages" is to facilitate carnal knowledge.

Few western women who go to another country to meet with a Muslim man they are considering to marriage are going to be aware of which madhab controls their contract, which local customs bind them and how, or what validates a mahr. They may not know if the imam in the neighborhood masjid is authorized to marry, or even if marrying in a masjid is necessary. If the man is already married, and she is not informed that she will be a second wife, with lesser rights to the first wife, finding out later can be a serious drag. In recent years, Egypt, in particular, has shown how the embrace of unregistered "urfi marriages" has been a disaster for women who could not register children sired by fathers who denied them. Even there, for these contracts to have the force of law, or allow for divorce, they must be registered.

And, yes, there have been beneficiaries who have lost out on a visa, or even received one, but been refused entry into the US because of a fake marriage. If you believe that Allah has blessed your "Islamic marriage" to the point where you are halal alone together, why shouldn't USCIS know that you are married, not that you just had a ceremony, but the real marriage is yet to come? If you can come here and declare that you have a husband in Islam, but you are filing for a K1, what does that really say about your union that you didn't bother to go all the way? A growing number of scholars recommend legalizing nikahs with the state, especially if the woman is non-Muslim. And, if you are marrying in a Muslim country, what is the excuse for not doing as most Muslims there do? Are you special or something?

I'll bet that few women who fake married in MENA know the madhab they married in, what local stipulations are binding, but not on paper, and what methodology they would have to employ to divorce, if needed. I'll bet most who divorced civilly didn't bother to divorce Islamically, although they married "Islamically" with great enthusasim. The capricious nature of these unions, entered into so often with naivete, leads me to such a conclusion. If I am wrong, that would be nice to know.

I apologize for sounding harsh or judgmental, for I am more frustrated than self-righteous in my intent. Frustrated both for the women involved and for our great faith, with limits and obligations that are often not taken as seriously as they deserve to be, and which is frequently presented as a means of obtaining spiritual permission to do as you please.

May Allah guide us all.

You have contradicted yourself. You say a growing number of scholars "encourage" legalizing nikahs. This is a far cry from your previous claims who have not legalized their nikkah are committing the haram, fornication. Whether or not an unregistered nikkah can affect immigration, is the smart thing to do, or is doing what most Muslims does not relate to your claims that those who do not register are fornicators.

95% of this post has nothing to do with whether or not non-civilly recognized nikahs are haram and seems like an attempt to divert from an issue which you cannot back up. If you have the "articles and books aimmed to those involved in Muslim family law" that you say you are privy to, cite them.

I hope people use caution before listening to you. A real scholar who advises on such issues will identify themselves and where they obtained their knowledge, who they have ijaza from, and at whose feet they have sat, and all of this would be verifiable. There are trustworthy, reliable sources out there that people can turn to, respected known people who can prove that they are in a position to be advising people. People should also realize you have very peculiar views on the obligatory nature of hijab and whether Muslim women can marry non-Muslim men. Everyone should think seriously about who they take their knowledge as they will be accountable. A random person with unsubstantiated claims of their qualifications on an immigration forum, regardless if what they say appeals to you, is not a trustworthy source and we are obligated to seek out trustworthy sources, not voices that sound good to us.