Turkish girl, 16, 'buried alive by her father because she had friendships with boys'

[Peikko 1,575]

But, only a fraction of men could have access to this priesthood... so... does this question have relevence? Women weren't prevented from anything else and had a religious equal footing. What about all those men who couldn't do this either?

BTW, did you ever read the book through? I wondered if you have found it useful yet!

(back to Caprica and Eric Stoltz )

No, but I don't know why anyone would want to be a priest. I certainly wouldn't want to be a priest. I'd rather be a prophetess if I could choose a religious occupation, and there were plenty of those. I'm nosey though, so it suits me.

Yes, it has relevance because the priesthood was then and is now the seat of power. You may not want to be a priest, but if women had been priests society would not have ended up culturally favouring men. Presumably you do not believe that religion is isolated from culture and society?

(No, not read all of it, but what I did read was interesting, if not actually useful because of my milldew problems )

[sandinista! 1,816]

Wow quite a debate with a few side issues, very interesting to catch up.

Although I don't think that honor killing is an inherently Muslim problem - see the link on the story I posted about 6 pages ago

I do think it is safe to say that the case under discussion is an honor killing that happened within a Muslim family. The girl's name is Medina after all.

Original Post:

"Medine Memi"

'You named your daughter after the holy city of Medina but your mind is left over from the earlier Age of Ignorance.'

Medina is celebrated for containing the mosque of Muhammad and also as the city which gave refuge to him and his followers, and so ranks as the second holiest city of Islam, after Mecca (Makkah). Muhammad was buried in Medina, under the Green Dome, as were the first two Rashidun (Rightly Guided Caliphs), Abu Bakr and Umar, who were buried in an adjacent area in the mosque.[2]

I still say, we should mind our own business when it comes to domestic affairs of another country, Especially any predominantly Muslim country. There is no doubt in my mind about this. The "west" is under terrorist attack by extremists for interferering and trying to impose our western societal ideals on the middle east. Period. When the interference stops, the attacks will stop.

kurds also consist of alevis, ahl-i haqqs, and yazidis. anyone of these groups uses arabic names, or names related to islam, though they are not muslim. the yazidi girl that was killed in that horrible video that emerged a few years back was named du'a, a type of prayer in islam, but she was not muslim. she was killed for befriending a muslim boy, and rumored to have converted to islam, though in fact she had not converted.

[Nasturtium 500]

Yes, it has relevance because the priesthood was then and is now the seat of power. You may not want to be a priest, but if women had been priests society would not have ended up culturally favouring men. Presumably you do not believe that religion is isolated from culture and society?

(No, not read all of it, but what I did read was interesting, if not actually useful because of my milldew problems )

But, by that argument.. women were allowed to be priests in Roman, Greek, Babylonian, etc cultures and women had a worse social status than they did in Hebrew society where they were inherently neutral until post-contact periods. Should they not have had higher status in those other societies? Culture, religion, etc... it's all bound up but it's more complicated than a one to one correlation.

[Nasturtium 500]

kurds also consist of alevis, ahl-i haqqs, and yazidis. anyone of these groups uses arabic names, or names related to islam, though they are not muslim. the yazidi girl that was killed in that horrible video that emerged a few years back was named du'a, a type of prayer in islam, but she was not muslim. she was killed for befriending a muslim boy, and rumored to have converted to islam, though in fact she had not converted.

Copts have been known to kill their own girls for the same reasons as Muslims who engage in honor killing: real cultural or religious transgressions or imagined versions of the same thing.

We have a similar, although not identical concept of "crimes of passion" which can garner lesser sentances based on some kind of emotional distress... although in many of these cases there is a definate premeditated component. I cannot imagine being burried alive and I keep going back to that fact... can you? The worst or most touching part of the sotry (depending on how you view it) to me is the lungs and stomach filled with dirt.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Leaving aside terrorism, there's nothing here to suggest that this honor killing was done "in the name of Islam". Isn't this sort of thing usually a cultural issue within the community?

If you ask me it was done in the name of Darwinism.

The family in question are ethnic Kurds. If you are really interested in this story you might want to read up about that.

who cares? One less to pass on the defective gene. (Pun may be intended)

[Nasturtium 500]

It is a concept. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true. Being 'unclean' isn't inherent to being human. Having a period or bleeding in some way is as you rightly put it a state of being but your religion ascribes a meaning to that state, which is a concept. I do not ascribe anything to it.

It is a concept which is based on an amalgamation of pagan and biblical ideas, not the actual Biblical ideas. Thus, my point is you cannot use that concept and apply it to the Biblical ideas. It's like applying Christian senses of something such as what is sin and then using it to argue a Hindu concept. it won't work. You must argue from within the framework if you are trying to prove something about that framework as inherent.

[FortLaudy 10]

kurds also consist of alevis, ahl-i haqqs, and yazidis. anyone of these groups uses arabic names, or names related to islam, though they are not muslim. the yazidi girl that was killed in that horrible video that emerged a few years back was named du'a, a type of prayer in islam, but she was not muslim. she was killed for befriending a muslim boy, and rumored to have converted to islam, though in fact she had not converted.

The Kurds are classified as an Iranian people.

Most Iranians are Muslims; 90% belong to the Shi'a branch of Islam.

True?

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

Periods are not 'unclean' and for a religion to suggest that a natural bodily function of a woman is 'unclean' is absurd, and I can't imagine why a western woman would go along with that and just say, "oh, that's just the way it is."

How does having a period prevent a woman from giving valid interpretations of religious material or to be able to function as an intelligent member of a comunity? Women are not sick when they have periods (Most women at any rate), they do not become stupid when they are having their periods, nor can they contaminate anyone else when they have their periods. Having a period does not render a woman unfit and unable to do any task at all. I have real difficulty with this concept, and can't find a rational way to validate it.

Religions suggest a lot of natural things are wrong. Why has anyone put up with that BS for centuries? I mean, sure, when most people were illiterate and it was a capital crime to publish the bible in a common language...sure. But since about the early 1400s what is the excuse? Religion should not have survived the plague, it is a wonderment it ever did. I lost interest in fairy tales when I was 6.

[Peikko 1,575]

Women have rarely enjoyed access to power via religion or throne. I do think there is a huge correlation between access to power and position in society. Of course, I agree that it's not as simple as that, however, when religion, however inocently (if you view it that way) segregates women and men along biological lines, then the possibilty of abuse is merely a biblical verse away. Whereas, if no such segregation exists, the justification for all kinds of horrific behaviours is completely removed.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[FortLaudy 10]

Women have rarely enjoyed access to power via religion or throne. I do think there is a huge correlation between access to power and position in society. Of course, I agree that it's not as simple as that, however, when religion, however inocently (if you view it that way) segregates women and men along biological lines, then the possibilty of abuse is merely a biblican verse away. Whereas, if no such segregation exists, the justification for all kinds of horrific behaviours is completely removed.

That's not gonna happen Any time soon

[Peikko 1,575]

It is a concept which is based on an amalgamation of pagan and biblical ideas, not the actual Biblical ideas. Thus, my point is you cannot use that concept and apply it to the Biblical ideas. It's like applying Christian senses of something such as what is sin and then using it to argue a Hindu concept. it won't work. You must argue from within the framework if you are trying to prove something about that framework as inherent.

Each religion can ascribe whatever meaning it likes to whatever state it wants to, but to suggest that there is inherently a meaning in any state is a function of religion, not a function of that state.

[Gary and Alla 3,696]

The Kurds are classified as an Iranian people.

Most Iranians are Muslims; 90% belong to the Shi'a branch of Islam.

True?

Iran is the Farsi transliteration of the German word "Aryan". They were in real tight with Herr Hitler and changed the name from "Persia" Yeah...I knew that! (true)

So, that means that Kurds are Germans, most likely Nazis hiding in the mountains, escaped from the Soviet hoard (slavs) that overran the the 3rd reich, who moved to Persia and changed the name to Aryan. Yeah, so the guy killed his nazi daughter for hanging out with skinheads. (joking) True and joking added for people unable to determine the difference themselves so I do not have to come back and explain to them.

What difference does it make WHY religiously fanatical people kill each other?

[sandinista! 1,816]

The Kurds are classified as an Iranian people.

Most Iranians are Muslims; 90% belong to the Shi'a branch of Islam.

True?

the majority of kurds are muslim, the majority that are muslim are sunni muslim. but it is difficult to determine their religious beliefs by their names, just as their being an iranian people does not mean they are majority shia like most of iran is.

[FortLaudy 10]

What difference does it make WHY religiously fanatical people kill each other?

True. I just don't see why we should go interfering when they do too... no point whatsoever and a complete waste of time and resources, if they want change they will make it happen from within.

[FortLaudy 10]

the majority of kurds are muslim, the majority that are muslim are sunni muslim. but it is difficult to determine their religious beliefs by their names, just as their being an iranian people does not mean they are majority shia like most of iran is.

Well for those who want to keep denying that "Honor Killings" are not real and no more than domestic violence in the Muslim world are liars or completely naive, it's alive and very well. But so be it. No society is perfect and each one has their problems. I don't see why the West always has to have this "better than thou" attititude when it comes to other societies and want to interfere and convert the lot of them, leave them the heck alone and the world will be a far better and more peaceful place.