France denies citizenship to Moroccan man who forces wife to wear full veil

[Peikko 1,575]

I can't see how the case would hit the light of day unless the wife was unhappy I guess. Perhaps the French authorities are determining that the wife must be unhappy, because as a French citizen, how can she not be? However, if they did that, presumably she has the right to go to court and testify that they are denying her the right to practice religion as she so chooses, so I can't see that the French authorities would go that route. It would be a fairly weird thing to do on their part, because the freedom to practice religion is also a right derived from French citizenship. Hence, I really would like to read something from her point of view.

[The_Dude 1,142]

I can't see how the case would hit the light of day unless the wife was unhappy I guess. Perhaps the French authorities are determining that the wife must be unhappy, because as a French citizen, how can she not be? However, if they did that, presumably she has the right to go to court and testify that they are denying her the right to practice religion as she so chooses, so I can't see that the French authorities would go that route. It would be a fairly weird thing to do on their part, because the freedom to practice religion is also a right derived from French citizenship. Hence, I really would like to read something from her point of view.

Would a failure to adhere to french secular principles be a reason to decline a citizenship application?

[Peikko 1,575]

Would a failure to adhere to french secular principles be a reason to decline a citizenship application?

What secular principals? How would these be determined? France doesn't determine that its citizens be secular themselves so I am not sure what you are getting at.

[The_Dude 1,142]

What secular principals? How would these be determined? France doesn't determine that its citizens be secular themselves so I am not sure what you are getting at.

Well, the minister listed among the reasons his citizenship was denied as a rejection of french secular beliefs. If you take away the coersion aspect, that is really all that is left. That is why I asked.

[Peikko 1,575]

Well, the minister listed among the reasons his citizenship was denied as a rejection of french secular beliefs. If you take away the coersion aspect, that is really all that is left. That is why I asked.

You can't take that away. They came to that conclusion based on his behaviour towards his wife. How could they draw that conclusion without any evidence?

[Peikko 1,575]

Are you asking should the French authorities deny citizenships to people they view as fundamentalists? I would have to say, they would have no legal grounds for doing so without evidence that such fundamentalism leads to behviour that is against French laws. In this case, they had the evidence, but only if what he demanded was against the wishes of the wife. Otherwise, they have nothing.

[Brad and Vika 130]

On a related note, I wonder about internal security where a full face veil is concerned. When returning from Canada with my teenage son a couple of years ago, we made the customary stop at the US border and had the usual questions asked about our visit. After the border control officer moved to the back of my vehicle to have a look inside, my son pulled up the hood of his sweatshirt, reinserted his earbuds, and closed his eyes. The officer went off the deep end, shouting "don't you dare cover your face at this border - you pull that hood back right now!". Reading this, I wonder about border security in France, or America for that matter, when some one hides their face for religious reasons.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Are you asking should the French authorities deny citizenships to people they view as fundamentalists? I would have to say, they would have no legal grounds for doing so without evidence that such fundamentalism leads to behviour that is against French laws. In this case, they had the evidence, but only if what he demanded was against the wishes of the wife. Otherwise, they have nothing.

what do you make of this portion of the article then?

This is not the first time France has cited the niqab – a veil that leaves only the wearer's eyes showing – as grounds for the refusal of citizenship. In 2008, a Moroccan woman, Faiza Silmi, was told she could not become French because her veil and "radical" interpretation of Islam were obstacles to assimilation.

in subsequent interviews, faiza cites her wearing a niqab as being her choice, and her choice alone and that she has not been coerced by anyone into wearing it. so she was denied citizenship on the basis of wearing it, not for being coerced into wearing it.

“They say I wear the niqab because my husband told me so,” she said. “I want to tell them: It is my choice. I take care of my children, and I leave the house when I please. I have my own car. I do the shopping on my own. Yes, I am a practicing Muslim, I am orthodox. But is that not my right?” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/19/world/europe/19france.html

i'm glad i live in a place where this would never fly. absolute religious freedom trumps france's imposed secularism any day of the week.

[Peikko 1,575]

I would say that it's a different woman with a different set of circumstances. I would also say that the decision doesn't hang on what she wears. Beyond that, I don't really know enough to make much further comment but if the French can uphold their decision legally, then, that's fine with me. Human rights trump religious freedom any day of the week.

[Amby 490]

Goooo France!!!!!!!

that was going to be my post!