Don't want to make mistakes

[pvb 0]

I am glad I found this site. It seems that a lot of people post when it is too late, so I thought I would ask for help before even starting. I want to lay out my story and then ask for advice on how to proceed. We are not even engaged yet :-)

1. I am a caucasian, born in the US, but identify with the Vietnamese culture. I am an ordained minister serving as a pastor (for Youth & Children) in a Vietnamese congregation in the US. I have previously served in 2 other Vietnamese congregations. I can get by in Vietnamese if I have to... but don't speak nearly as much as I would like to.

2. In May 2009, one of my church members introduced me to my Tam in Saigon. There is no blood relationship. Tam & her mom are family friends of the person who introduced us. She basically vouched for the character of each of us to the other. I started talking to Tam, thinking it would fizzle out, but... that is not what happened.

2a. Tam is also very involved of in the church in VN, having served 2 years as a missionary in a school for Vietnamese in Cambodia... and has a masters degree in ministry. I know that we don't want to emphasize any of that for the VN government... but in addition to being in love, we are just so right for each other. She speaks English fluently with a minor accent (has worked for internationals in VN)

3. We have emailed, chatted, phone (unfortunately phone cards... I will have to check to see if my company has records) from that time. Hm, I did send her flowers twice from a website during that time and she saved the cards and they also take a picture and send it to you with the flowers.

4. In November/December, I went to visit her. I originally booked for 10 days, but then extended my trip to 24 days. Oh, her mom (& brother) live in the US. Some other aunts & uncles may as well. She is currently on the waiting list for her mom to sponsor her here. Her mom came to visit her in Vietnam at the same time I was coming (so to meet me & approve or disapprove of me... thankfully she approved.)

5. I am not a big fan of taking pictures, so I passed the camera to her, but alas, I think she dislikes it even more than me. We have shots together, self shots at the airport, in the taxi, in restaurant, at home, near a church in Nha Trang, in front of the train, etc. Her dad has passed away, and I did go with her to her hometown of Nha Trang to visit her father's grave stone... and in true VN tradition, took lots of pictures there. I met her God-aunt & uncle there and have pictures with them. I also have pictures with 2 of her cousins in her house in Saigon... oh and of course with me, her, and her mom. I met another cousin + I think 2 aunts that I didn't get pictues with. (We were just sitting there eating when they happened to come by... it wasn't exactly a photo-op)....

6. After coming back to the US, I have sent her flowers one time (but no receipt; it was through a friend) and this week I will send a birthday gift for her with a friend who is returning to the country. Hard to track.

7. We have not 'engaged' yet, but we will. I am starting to see that a big engagement party over there is extremely important... but, with her mom being in the US & of course my parents being in the US, can we really even do a Viet engagement party? Is it worth it to fly all parents over there for the event? (Her mom is older and had trouble coping with the trip... I dont know if she can do it again soon.) I have friends there who can fill in for me and probably one of her aunts could fill in if necessary... anyway, it would be nice to have the big party there, since we wont be able to have a big wedding party there.

8. She is 34 & I am 32. So about 2.5 year age difference. I am fat... but not ugly (IMO) :-) I sincerely doubt she knows the answers to some of the questions I have seen posed, like the name of my manager, etc... I certainly could not even tell you the name of her company. (Honestly, who cares the name of a company; if that is all you have to talk about, then I think you have problems.)

9. Well, here is the thing. I also see people getting rejected for getting engaged too soon, but all the VN women in my church are advising me that you can't leave a VN woman waiting too long... giving me the distinct impression that VN move much QUICKER than americans. Also, Ive seen complaints about the engagement & wedding being too close together, but all the sites I read about customs (& personal experience) tell me that while traditionally there was a long period, in the urban areas of VN now it is often the day before... so it almost makes me think that American COs are judging people's relationship based on an old cultural standard that has changed.

10. So, I guess the question is what would be the appropriate amount of time to wait before engagement? How many trips should I make before the engagement? Would it possibly be even easier to have her come here on a Religious Worker visa and then marry her (or would that be considered fraud?)

11. Oh, also I am collecting unemployment right now. (And working Real Estate, which pays very inconsistently, but it is nice when it does.) Will there be any problems with that? The unemployment amount is above the poverty level I think.

Please give me up-front advice and ask questions... I want to get this right.

Thanks,

Steve

[ScottThuy 140]

How you were introduced and the fact that she is currently being petitioned by her mother and add to that the number of relatives could all be small hurdles... each can be addressed up front....

Since her family is here, a Dam Hoi is not realistic... but a Dinh Hon (engagement celebration between you and her) would be a good idea... document all trips and communication....

The topics that you mentioned that seem odd for someone to know are not that odd for a normal couple that spend a great deal of time together... If you do get engaged and proceed with the petition, she will need to know everything about you...

If there is a question of the fact that her intent was to marry you before she came on the religious worker visa.. she would risk a ban if caught...

Your size should not be an issue unless you are huge compared to her and the CO in that case could ask why is she with him other than immigration.. (I'm not a small guy, more than twice her size, so I am not judging, just noting that if a guy was 150-200Kilos or more and she was 45 kilos or less the CO could see that as cause to wonder; others may disagree on this)

Regardless of the source of your income, you must meet 125% of the poverty level for the number of dependnts including her. Unemployment is not usually above poverty...

IMO another trip that includes a Dinh Hon would be a good idea.... take plenty of pictures and save everything... the trips are not cheap so with you being on unemployment I dont expect that you would be spending thousands of dollars on many trips back and forth... this process can cost quite a bit when everything is considered...

If you are very organized in the application and address any red flags in the initial filing, you will have a better chance of getting approved... take your time with the application proccess being sure everything is in order ahead of time, there is no requirement to be engaged very soon or within some specific time... so let the relationship grow and when it is time, head over to make the engagement formalized with the Dinh Hon... I would wait until after that to file the petition... In the meantime, read as much as you can find here on VJ..

[Dau Que 6]

I am glad I found this site. It seems that a lot of people post when it is too late, so I thought I would ask for help before even starting. I want to lay out my story and then ask for advice on how to proceed. We are not even engaged yet :-)

1. I am a caucasian, born in the US, but identify with the Vietnamese culture. I am an ordained minister serving as a pastor (for Youth & Children) in a Vietnamese congregation in the US. I have previously served in 2 other Vietnamese congregations. I can get by in Vietnamese if I have to... but don't speak nearly as much as I would like to.

2. In May 2009, one of my church members introduced me to my Tam in Saigon. There is no blood relationship. Tam & her mom are family friends of the person who introduced us. She basically vouched for the character of each of us to the other. I started talking to Tam, thinking it would fizzle out, but... that is not what happened.

2a. Tam is also very involved of in the church in VN, having served 2 years as a missionary in a school for Vietnamese in Cambodia... and has a masters degree in ministry. I know that we don't want to emphasize any of that for the VN government... but in addition to being in love, we are just so right for each other. She speaks English fluently with a minor accent (has worked for internationals in VN)

3. We have emailed, chatted, phone (unfortunately phone cards... I will have to check to see if my company has records) from that time. Hm, I did send her flowers twice from a website during that time and she saved the cards and they also take a picture and send it to you with the flowers.

4. In November/December, I went to visit her. I originally booked for 10 days, but then extended my trip to 24 days. Oh, her mom (& brother) live in the US. Some other aunts & uncles may as well. She is currently on the waiting list for her mom to sponsor her here. Her mom came to visit her in Vietnam at the same time I was coming (so to meet me & approve or disapprove of me... thankfully she approved.)

5. I am not a big fan of taking pictures, so I passed the camera to her, but alas, I think she dislikes it even more than me. We have shots together, self shots at the airport, in the taxi, in restaurant, at home, near a church in Nha Trang, in front of the train, etc. Her dad has passed away, and I did go with her to her hometown of Nha Trang to visit her father's grave stone... and in true VN tradition, took lots of pictures there. I met her God-aunt & uncle there and have pictures with them. I also have pictures with 2 of her cousins in her house in Saigon... oh and of course with me, her, and her mom. I met another cousin + I think 2 aunts that I didn't get pictues with. (We were just sitting there eating when they happened to come by... it wasn't exactly a photo-op)....

6. After coming back to the US, I have sent her flowers one time (but no receipt; it was through a friend) and this week I will send a birthday gift for her with a friend who is returning to the country. Hard to track.

7. We have not 'engaged' yet, but we will. I am starting to see that a big engagement party over there is extremely important... but, with her mom being in the US & of course my parents being in the US, can we really even do a Viet engagement party? Is it worth it to fly all parents over there for the event? (Her mom is older and had trouble coping with the trip... I dont know if she can do it again soon.) I have friends there who can fill in for me and probably one of her aunts could fill in if necessary... anyway, it would be nice to have the big party there, since we wont be able to have a big wedding party there.

8. She is 34 & I am 32. So about 2.5 year age difference. I am fat... but not ugly (IMO) :-) I sincerely doubt she knows the answers to some of the questions I have seen posed, like the name of my manager, etc... I certainly could not even tell you the name of her company. (Honestly, who cares the name of a company; if that is all you have to talk about, then I think you have problems.)

9. Well, here is the thing. I also see people getting rejected for getting engaged too soon, but all the VN women in my church are advising me that you can't leave a VN woman waiting too long... giving me the distinct impression that VN move much QUICKER than americans. Also, Ive seen complaints about the engagement & wedding being too close together, but all the sites I read about customs (& personal experience) tell me that while traditionally there was a long period, in the urban areas of VN now it is often the day before... so it almost makes me think that American COs are judging people's relationship based on an old cultural standard that has changed.

10. So, I guess the question is what would be the appropriate amount of time to wait before engagement? How many trips should I make before the engagement? Would it possibly be even easier to have her come here on a Religious Worker visa and then marry her (or would that be considered fraud?)

11. Oh, also I am collecting unemployment right now. (And working Real Estate, which pays very inconsistently, but it is nice when it does.) Will there be any problems with that? The unemployment amount is above the poverty level I think.

Please give me up-front advice and ask questions... I want to get this right.

Thanks,

Steve

Dear Steve,

This universal rule still applies to almost any "love" story around the world: "No money, no honey." You need to be practical. If you read my posts in the past, long-distant relationships, especially those involved with Vnese, WILL require lots of monetary resource. You'll need to work on that issue now first before focusing on any other matters in your particular case.

[vietazn 1]

What you need:

1. better portfolio of photos, in better locations and less self shots and more shots with family

2. phone record

3. engagement ceremony - can't do the day before wedding or same day as wedding, even though that is actually normal, because it is too hard to explain to the CO. Engagement to them starts when you actually proposed. Proposal is like a private thing, and engagement ceremony is celebrating and letting the world know.

4. job - probably need to have a job for at least a year prior to applying because of the affidavit of support. However, tax transcripts might provide cover if you make enough in real estate. Or have enough assets to qualify. Not having a job and marrying in Vietnam looks desperate for cash.

Random but do people actually send their women flowers in Vietnam? It's like giving someone $45 to buy $5 flowers...

[pvb 0]

Thanks to everyone for their input so far.

Don't worry about money. My unemployment is as much as I made when I was working. My intention is to build my real estate business while collecting the unemployment. I will be able to afford to visit a few times this year. I checked the guidelines and sure enough I am well over the 125%. Even the amount I made in real estate last year is over the 125%.

I will definitely take the advice on more pictures. ... when I go back I am sure I will go and visit all her family and meet them, so we will take photos with them.

[lindal24 1]

Random but do people actually send their women flowers in Vietnam? It's like giving someone $45 to buy $5 flowers...

For my husband's birthday I had family take over a cake and present I had pre-arranged before I left back to the states...it was sweet at the same time very shocking because I was talking to him on the phone when the doorbell rang!

[dq2000 1]

What you need:

1. better portfolio of photos, in better locations and less self shots and more shots with family

2. phone record

3. engagement ceremony - can't do the day before wedding or same day as wedding, even though that is actually normal, because it is too hard to explain to the CO. Engagement to them starts when you actually proposed. Proposal is like a private thing, and engagement ceremony is celebrating and letting the world know.

4. job - probably need to have a job for at least a year prior to applying because of the affidavit of support. However, tax transcripts might provide cover if you make enough in real estate. Or have enough assets to qualify. Not having a job and marrying in Vietnam looks desperate for cash.

Random but do people actually send their women flowers in Vietnam? It's like giving someone $45 to buy $5 flowers...

I agree with more photos, and variety of photos as well. A phone record is nice, but to be honest we didn't have much of a record (my wife used phone cards while in VN). I think any consistant form of communication between the two of you is of most importance. I wouldn't advise, for example, just paper letters, but something like chat logs and a few phone calls is perfect.

[pvb 0]

I am starting to see that this will be a longer process than I thought, but I would rather go through correctly in the first place than have to wait extra years in reapplying etc.

The thing is that I never expected that I would propose before a year of knowing someone. It was only because of my friends who are Viet telling me that Viet culture I cant leave her waiting too long. And I know I love her... and we are like perfect for each other (at least I know she is perfect for me.) But, yeah, maybe I will revert to my original plan which was to try to visit again about March... and then May or June... or do the formal engagement at that time. I mean, the cat is already out of the bag; we are going to get married. But that still doesnt mean we have to rush the engagement (especially if rushing it could make us have toit wait longer instead of shorter anyway.)

I would love to be able to have my parents & her mom come over for the engagement. But we would have to see how mom's health is at the time and whether my parents could get the time to go (and also my mom could overcome her fear of all the shots.) And it would be nice to have a big engagement party there since her family & friends there wont get to come to the wedding. (Even before thinking of immigration issues, my Viet friends suggested this anyway.)

The good thing is that the 'need' to gather more evidence, will allow us to enjoy a comfortable pace instead of rushing an engagement party.

Now, a ring, flying parents over, 2 trips, etc etc, I better get going to sell some houses.

RE: flowers... I understand the concern that I am overpaying, but I found a site where I pay around $20-$30 for a nice bouqet... and I figure compared to the US that is cheap, so I am perfectly happy with it. Since strengthening my network of church relationships on my last trip, I actually have plenty of connections in Saigon (&Hue) who will deliver flowers for me. (I can share the website with anyone who wants it, just PM me.)

[vietazn 1]

Next trip bring your digital camera, set the date/time on it, take it everywhere with you. Take a lot of pictures wherever you go. Then you won't have to remember what you did and when you did it, later if/when you have to do a timeline. Like a photo timeline.

Not making a Vietnamese woman wait too long really applies to women under 30. Once they are over 30 they have all the time in the world because they tend to bi che.

Don't confuse big Dam Hoi with expensive Dam Hoi. Choose substance over style. Be sure to get someone to take pictures as you walk down the long table or from table to table to greet the guests. That's the best way to be in pictures with everyone so the photos will show variety. 50-100 photos should do.

Flowers comment is because $50 is a lot of money in Vietnam. It can buy over 300 glasses of nuoc mia...

[ScottThuy 140]

having a tripod can be a great asset when it is difficult finding someone to take the photos

20 or 30 bucks is a room full of flowers in VN not a bouqette...

[pvb 0]

having a tripod can be a great asset when it is difficult finding someone to take the photos

20 or 30 bucks is a room full of flowers in VN not a bouqette...

I know about the price difference... however, it helps me to put it in perspective that it is less than i would pay in the US. So I am happy, she is happy, and the owner of the website is happy.

Now, I do have friends do it for me though.

[Dau Que 6]

4. In November/December, I went to visit her. I originally booked for 10 days, but then extended my trip to 24 days. Oh, her mom (& brother) live in the US. Some other aunts & uncles may as well. She is currently on the waiting list for her mom to sponsor her here. Her mom came to visit her in Vietnam at the same time I was coming (so to meet me & approve or disapprove of me... thankfully she approved.)

All cases will have some weakest link(s) that can be used by the CO to be the denial reason. That might be yours. She will need to prove harder than the other Visa applicants that she does NOT love you for that Visa and is trying to cut down on the waiting time by going through you instead of waiting for her turn with her mom's case.

Your case will need lots of FRONTLOADING, including but limited to LOTS of and frequent trips to visit her.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Dau Que

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

All cases will have some weakest link(s) that can be used by the CO to be the denial reason. That might be yours. She will need to prove harder than the other Visa applicants that she does NOT love you for that Visa and is trying to cut down on the waiting time by going through you instead of waiting for her turn with her mom's case.

Your case will need lots of FRONTLOADING, including but limited to LOTS of and frequent trips to visit her.

Agreed! The one thing the consulate suspects in pretty much every fiancee/spousal visa case is that the primary reason for getting the visa is immigration and NOT a sincere relationship with the petitioner. They explicitly say this on many denial slips. Having a family petition pending leaves no doubt that the beneficiary wanted to immigrate before she met the petitioner.

pvb, you should consider this angle when preparing evidence for your petition. You want to convince the CO that the relationship began because of action on YOUR part, and that it developed because of things YOU did. You don't want the CO to see anything that would give the impression that she was actively trying to draw you into a relationship.

It's true that the consulate uses a very traditional viewpoint when judging the validity of the relationship, but it's not likely you're going to convince them to change that. They expect a reasonable period of courtship before the formal engagement. Since the relationship was not arranged by the family, they also expect a reasonable amount of evidence that her family has had sufficient time to get to know you, and that they approve of the marriage. Insufficient time between the first meeting and the engagement, and only one or two visits to Vietnam are reasons cited frequently by CO's when denying visa applications.

[vietazn 1]

I don' t know how you can frontload this without highlighting and reinforcing that she has already applied to immigrate to the USA, making the negative even bigger. It's already known to the consulate, so do they need to be reminded of it? I would just focus on the strengths of the relationship.

Edited January 8, 2010 by vietazn