Woman charged in Fort Hood-related hate crime:

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I can supply some facts. I'm a born Sunni Muslim ..... I hope that helps.

So then how come Al-Qaida and the Taliban are Muslims?

Al-Qaida and the Taliban are groups which interpret the Quran thru a political and cultural lens. Bits and pieces of any religion can be used to justify harm, but, for the most part, most adherents to the faith will denounce their acts and beliefs. Members of the Taliban and Al Qaida are Muslims by culture and heritage, but I cannot with a straight face profess that they are Muslim by religious understanding. There is a bright line between culture and religious teachings, which is often crossed when one wants to do harm to innocents in God's Name. I would say that they take a large part of their violent philosophy more from Sun Tzu's "Art of War", rather than Al Quran, which directs us to to be moderate in our practice, to seek good in one's enemies, that Allah is the final judge of our character and acts, and that there will be non-Muslims who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven at the End of Days.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Sofiyya

[AlHayatZween 2]

I can supply some facts. I'm a born Sunni Muslim with a Ph.D in Islamic history and law, so I have a good idea of what Islam teaches via Al Quran and ahadith. NOI doesn't follow a lot of what Islam teaches, as it was a socio-political movement, serving a specific population from the beginning.

The Nation of Islam was founded by Elijah Muhammad in the early 1930's as a nationalist, separatist and Black supremicist group. After the death of Elijah Muhammad in 1975, leadership passed to his son, Wallace Deen Muhammad, who began moving the group toward mainstream Islam and away from the segregationist template his father had laid down. Currently, the leader of the reconstituted NOI is Minister Louis Farrakhan, who still embraces and teaches the original concept that Black people are God's chosen, and Whites are the devil. On the basis of this message, Blacks are encouraged to be self-sufficient, disciplined and racially superior. While Islam also teaches discipline and self-sufficiency, it teaches the antithesis of racial segregation or the superiority of any one group over another as God's chosen people.

I hope that helps.

[slim 1,533]

I can supply some facts. I'm a born Sunni Muslim ..... I hope that helps.

So then how come Al-Qaida and the Taliban are Muslims?

Al-Qaida and the Taliban are groups which interpret the Quran thru a political and cultural lens. Bits and pieces of any religion can be used to justify harm, but, for the most part, most adherents to the faith will denounce their acts and beliefs. Members of the Taliban and Al Qaida are Muslims by culture and heritage, but I cannot with a straight face profess that they are Muslim by religious understanding. There is a bright line between culture and religious teachings, which is often crossed when one wants to do harm to innocents in God's Name. I would say that they take a large part of their violent philosophy more from Sun Tzu's "Art of War", rather than Al Quran, which directs us to to be moderate in our practice, to seek good in one's enemies, that Allah is the final judge of our character and acts, and that there will be non-Muslims who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven at the End of Days.

So you're all fired up about NOI not being Muslim but Al-Qaida and Taliban are "kind of Muslims" because they are by culture and heritage, not so much religious understanding.

So people can't have a "Muslim-sounding name" but yet they can be from a "Muslim-like culture" and it makes them "more Muslim" than someone who decides to convert in jail?

I'm still not getting it.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I can supply some facts. I'm a born Sunni Muslim ..... I hope that helps.

So then how come Al-Qaida and the Taliban are Muslims?

Al-Qaida and the Taliban are groups which interpret the Quran thru a political and cultural lens. Bits and pieces of any religion can be used to justify harm, but, for the most part, most adherents to the faith will denounce their acts and beliefs. Members of the Taliban and Al Qaida are Muslims by culture and heritage, but I cannot with a straight face profess that they are Muslim by religious understanding. There is a bright line between culture and religious teachings, which is often crossed when one wants to do harm to innocents in God's Name. I would say that they take a large part of their violent philosophy more from Sun Tzu's "Art of War", rather than Al Quran, which directs us to to be moderate in our practice, to seek good in one's enemies, that Allah is the final judge of our character and acts, and that there will be non-Muslims who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven at the End of Days.

Now explain who al-Khidr is and you can go.

[Heracles 417]

So you should be able to post it then. You should be able to show me where homicides carried out by knifes are on par (equivalent) with that of homicides by guns.

I assume that facts don't need to be backed up by Wiki links. Sorry. I'll try to post AUS news articles instead.

In AUS, homicides by knives are nowhere near on par with homicides carried out with firearms. Homicides by knife are like, 7 TIMES as numerous!

Here you go - from the AIC itself - 260 homicides in 2006-2007. Less than 16% by firearm. http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.aspx

Notice what the trend is in the link, in particular since the gun buy back and restriction in the 90's.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not just prove my point that gun restrictions works.

[IR5FORMUMSIE 850]

I can supply some facts. I'm a born Sunni Muslim ..... I hope that helps.

So then how come Al-Qaida and the Taliban are Muslims?

Al-Qaida and the Taliban are groups which interpret the Quran thru a political and cultural lens. Bits and pieces of any religion can be used to justify harm, but, for the most part, most adherents to the faith will denounce their acts and beliefs. Members of the Taliban and Al Qaida are Muslims by culture and heritage, but I cannot with a straight face profess that they are Muslim by religious understanding. There is a bright line between culture and religious teachings, which is often crossed when one wants to do harm to innocents in God's Name. I would say that they take a large part of their violent philosophy more from Sun Tzu's "Art of War", rather than Al Quran, which directs us to to be moderate in our practice, to seek good in one's enemies, that Allah is the final judge of our character and acts, and that there will be non-Muslims who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven at the End of Days.

So you're all fired up about NOI not being Muslim but Al-Qaida and Taliban are "kind of Muslims" because they are by culture and heritage, not so much religious understanding.

So people can't have a "Muslim-sounding name" but yet they can be from a "Muslim-like culture" and it makes them "more Muslim" than someone who decides to convert in jail?

I'm still not getting it.

At least you're honest about it. If you act like a Muslim, then you are a Muslim. In a desert, in jail, at a university, wherever. There is no such thing as one Muslim culture, any more than there is one Christian culture. There are basic tenets of faith that the pious follow but laxity or observance varies by personal choice and to a certain extent, cultural beliefs. Suicide is forbidden, as is suicide bombing. So why do people do it, for political reasons not religious reasons. Hitler considered himself a Christian and the movement was called the 3rd Reich, the 1st Reich being the Holy Roman Empire under Charlemagne. Jesus would never condone such actions as Hitler did. But we know all about Christianity so when Hitler is called a Christian we see what a joke that is. People don't know as much about Islam so when someone claims to be a Muslim then does horrible acts we accept it without asking questions.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I can supply some facts. I'm a born Sunni Muslim ..... I hope that helps.

So then how come Al-Qaida and the Taliban are Muslims?

Al-Qaida and the Taliban are groups which interpret the Quran thru a political and cultural lens. Bits and pieces of any religion can be used to justify harm, but, for the most part, most adherents to the faith will denounce their acts and beliefs. Members of the Taliban and Al Qaida are Muslims by culture and heritage, but I cannot with a straight face profess that they are Muslim by religious understanding. There is a bright line between culture and religious teachings, which is often crossed when one wants to do harm to innocents in God's Name. I would say that they take a large part of their violent philosophy more from Sun Tzu's "Art of War", rather than Al Quran, which directs us to to be moderate in our practice, to seek good in one's enemies, that Allah is the final judge of our character and acts, and that there will be non-Muslims who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven at the End of Days.

So you're all fired up about NOI not being Muslim but Al-Qaida and Taliban are "kind of Muslims" because they are by culture and heritage, not so much religious understanding.

So people can't have a "Muslim-sounding name" but yet they can be from a "Muslim-like culture" and it makes them "more Muslim" than someone who decides to convert in jail?

I'm still not getting it.

I don't believe that simply by addressing the issue, I can be considered to be "fired up". I have answered calmly and rationaly. Please do not exaggerate my demeanor.

Since NOI does not follow Islam or Al Quran at all, and they believe in a prophet after Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullāh (pbuh) they are not interested in orthodoxy. The "Nation" in NOI refers to a Black separatist nation, not the community of Allah. There is no resemblence to mainstream Islam in their basic doctrine. They do not have Islam as their cultural overlay, nor does their ideology derive from Islam.

The Taliban and Al Qaida are sorely misguided, but they are cultural Muslims, having resided in predominately Muslim countries and absorbed a cultural veneer. I could speak to them about moderate Islam, and while they eskew it, they would have an understanding that what I say has a basis in Al Quran and ahadith, while NOI is not teaching from either.

I haven't said anything about the condition or place where one may convert. One may become a Sunni Muslim while incarcerated and behave as one. One may join the NOI or some other poser group, change their name, but not change their heart. It is not a matter of being "more Muslim", it is a matter of being Muslim at all. Muslims can be cultural Muslims as Christians can be cultural Christians, professing faith, but acting in contradiction to it. We are all merely human, after all.

I am familar with the erroneous notion that names "sound Muslim", but, in reality, they are merely Arab names that existed prior to the revelation of ISlam on the Arabian pennisula. There is no such thing as a Muslim name.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Sofiyya

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I can supply some facts. I'm a born Sunni Muslim ..... I hope that helps.

So then how come Al-Qaida and the Taliban are Muslims?

Al-Qaida and the Taliban are groups which interpret the Quran thru a political and cultural lens. Bits and pieces of any religion can be used to justify harm, but, for the most part, most adherents to the faith will denounce their acts and beliefs. Members of the Taliban and Al Qaida are Muslims by culture and heritage, but I cannot with a straight face profess that they are Muslim by religious understanding. There is a bright line between culture and religious teachings, which is often crossed when one wants to do harm to innocents in God's Name. I would say that they take a large part of their violent philosophy more from Sun Tzu's "Art of War", rather than Al Quran, which directs us to to be moderate in our practice, to seek good in one's enemies, that Allah is the final judge of our character and acts, and that there will be non-Muslims who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven at the End of Days.

Now explain who al-Khidr is and you can go.

I'm not sure the audience is ready for that.

I can supply some facts. I'm a born Sunni Muslim ..... I hope that helps.

So then how come Al-Qaida and the Taliban are Muslims?

Al-Qaida and the Taliban are groups which interpret the Quran thru a political and cultural lens. Bits and pieces of any religion can be used to justify harm, but, for the most part, most adherents to the faith will denounce their acts and beliefs. Members of the Taliban and Al Qaida are Muslims by culture and heritage, but I cannot with a straight face profess that they are Muslim by religious understanding. There is a bright line between culture and religious teachings, which is often crossed when one wants to do harm to innocents in God's Name. I would say that they take a large part of their violent philosophy more from Sun Tzu's "Art of War", rather than Al Quran, which directs us to to be moderate in our practice, to seek good in one's enemies, that Allah is the final judge of our character and acts, and that there will be non-Muslims who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven at the End of Days.

So you're all fired up about NOI not being Muslim but Al-Qaida and Taliban are "kind of Muslims" because they are by culture and heritage, not so much religious understanding.

So people can't have a "Muslim-sounding name" but yet they can be from a "Muslim-like culture" and it makes them "more Muslim" than someone who decides to convert in jail?

I'm still not getting it.

At least you're honest about it. If you act like a Muslim, then you are a Muslim. In a desert, in jail, at a university, wherever. There is no such thing as one Muslim culture, any more than there is one Christian culture. There are basic tenets of faith that the pious follow but laxity or observance varies by personal choice and to a certain extent, cultural beliefs. Suicide is forbidden, as is suicide bombing. So why do people do it, for political reasons not religious reasons. Hitler considered himself a Christian and the movement was called the 3rd Reich, the 1st Reich being the Holy Roman Empire under Charlemagne. Jesus would never condone such actions as Hitler did. But we know all about Christianity so when Hitler is called a Christian we see what a joke that is. People don't know as much about Islam so when someone claims to be a Muslim then does horrible acts we accept it without asking questions.

Ain't that the truth!

[Heracles 417]

At least you're honest about it. If you act like a Muslim, then you are a Muslim. In a desert, in jail, at a university, wherever. There is no such thing as one Muslim culture, any more than there is one Christian culture. There are basic tenets of faith that the pious follow but laxity or observance varies by personal choice and to a certain extent, cultural beliefs. Suicide is forbidden, as is suicide bombing. So why do people do it, for political reasons not religious reasons. Hitler considered himself a Christian and the movement was called the 3rd Reich, the 1st Reich being the Holy Roman Empire under Charlemagne. Jesus would never condone such actions as Hitler did. But we know all about Christianity so when Hitler is called a Christian we see what a joke that is. People don't know as much about Islam so when someone claims to be a Muslim then does horrible acts we accept it without asking questions.

Hitler did not kill in the name of Christianity.

Hitler is only called a Christian by atheists.

[slim 1,533]

Notice what the trend is in the link, in particular since the gun buy back and restriction in the 90's.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not just prove my point that gun restrictions works.

I didn't notice a trend at all. I think you were looking at the "predicted" line instead of the "observed" (or, the real numbers) line. I'm guessing the predicted line came from folks like yourself who thought homicides would go down after banning guns. If you read the little snippets above that chart it says homicide rates "fluctuated" and nowhere does it say anything about them going down.

Maybe because 2006-2007 were the lowest years so far, that's why you thought they'd gone down? Either way, check '99. They skyrocketed! Now, weren't guns just as illegal in '99 as they were in '06? Or are they "more illegal" now?

At least you're honest about it. If you act like a Muslim, then you are a Muslim.

I'll be honest again because I still don't get it.

So NOI, who acts like Muslims, they're still not Muslim? But Al-Qaida and Taliban who don't act like Muslims, they are?

Thank you for trying to educate this ignorant American.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

At least you're honest about it. If you act like a Muslim, then you are a Muslim.

I'll be honest again because I still don't get it.

So NOI, who acts like Muslims, they're still not Muslim? But Al-Qaida and Taliban who don't act like Muslims, they are?

Thank you for trying to educate this ignorant American.

No thanks for me?

NOI doesn't act like Muslims. Labels or looks do not make one a Muslim. The same goes for the Taliban and Al Qaida. Both make up their beliefs to suit their agenda, but NOI is purely American, brought about and sustained by a Black experience in America, post-slavery. Despite its name, it has no roots in Islam.

[slim 1,533]

No thanks for me?

NOI doesn't act like Muslims. Labels or looks do not make one a Muslim. The same goes for the Taliban and Al Qaida. Both make up their beliefs to suit their agenda, but NOI is purely American, brought about and sustained by a Black experience in America, post-slavery. Despite its name, it has no roots in Islam.

I honestly didn't notice that post was from someone else, I thought it was from you, Sofiyya. So, thank you too. After spending a year in the Middle East and reading just about every book I could get my hands on about Islam, I'm still labeled an ignorant American. So, thanks.

I'll quit beating around the Bush (sorry, had to insert that pun!) here. Why do American Muslims attempt to distance themselves from NOI but not Al-Qaida/Taliban? Why is there an acceptable standard to be sympathetic (or at least not to acknowledge) to the leanings and actions of those groups overseas, but not the NOI here in America?

Sure, they have different agendas, but Muslims claiming one thing for one reason aren't equally suported by Muslims everywhere? Why?

[Chica Yeyé 41]

I will say this once, and then deny I ever said it.....

I have enormous respect for Sofiyya's knowledge of her faith and its laws. It has allowed me to know more and be able to be more of a friend to my Muslim friends. and also sparkled my interest in listening more and speaking less.

Aside from that, she is still a conservative b1tch and we shall enjoy butting heads....

[Heracles 417]

Notice what the trend is in the link, in particular since the gun buy back and restriction in the 90's.

Correct me if I am wrong, but did you not just prove my point that gun restrictions works.

I didn't notice a trend at all. I think you were looking at the "predicted" line instead of the "observed" (or, the real numbers) line. I'm guessing the predicted line came from folks like yourself who thought homicides would go down after banning guns. If you read the little snippets above that chart it says homicide rates "fluctuated" and nowhere does it say anything about them going down.

Maybe because 2006-2007 were the lowest years so far, that's why you thought they'd gone down? Either way, check '99. They skyrocketed! Now, weren't guns just as illegal in '99 as they were in '06? Or are they "more illegal" now?

You are too easy to beat. Guns are not illegal in Australia. Furthermore, the gun buy back started in 1997. It obviously takes years to get them off the streets. Not rocket science.

As you will notice in another thread, the country with the toughest gun laws of those listed, the UK, also has the lowest murder rate by guns.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

No thanks for me?

NOI doesn't act like Muslims. Labels or looks do not make one a Muslim. The same goes for the Taliban and Al Qaida. Both make up their beliefs to suit their agenda, but NOI is purely American, brought about and sustained by a Black experience in America, post-slavery. Despite its name, it has no roots in Islam.

I honestly didn't notice that post was from someone else, I thought it was from you, Sofiyya. So, thank you too. After spending a year in the Middle East and reading just about every book I could get my hands on about Islam, I'm still labeled an ignorant American. So, thanks.

I'll quit beating around the Bush (sorry, had to insert that pun!) here. Why do American Muslims attempt to distance themselves from NOI but not Al-Qaida/Taliban? Why is there an acceptable standard to be sympathetic (or at least not to acknowledge) to the leanings and actions of those groups overseas, but not the NOI here in America?

Sure, they have different agendas, but Muslims claiming one thing for one reason aren't equally suported by Muslims everywhere? Why?

You ask questions. That's not ignorant, that's good.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US, the numbers range from 1.5 to 7 million. No one even knows how to count us, much less what we all think about NOI or terrorist groups. What tells you that American Muslims are in sympathy with militant groups, but revile the NOI? I don't know where that info is coming from.

I will say this once, and then deny I ever said it.....

I have enormous respect for Sofiyya's knowledge of her faith and its laws. It has allowed me to know more and be able to be more of a friend to my Muslim friends. and also sparkled my interest in listening more and speaking less.

Aside from that, she is still a conservative b1tch and we shall enjoy butting heads....

Damn good conservative b!tch to you