Red Wine Vinegar

[New Beginnings 32]

Does anyone know what could replace red wine vinegar in a vinaigrette? The results I find say to use balsamic which also includes wine... Any suggestions?

[ya falaha! 0]

Aren't all vinegars really fermented "wine" of some sort? Isn't vinegar in a later stage of fermentation of wine? Just because it has "wine" in the title doesn't make it more halal or haram than any other kind of vinegar IMO.

Here is a blurb from a definition of vinegar I found online...

"Vinegar is the third stage of life in a sugar molecule. When sugar ferments or ages, it becomes alcohol. When alcohol ferments or ages it becomes vinegar. "

I don't know how accurate this website is but here goes...

http://www.islamawareness.net/Alcohol/fatwa_vinegar001.html

Honestly, if you're (or your husband) are that worried about haram/halal then maybe exclude vinegar from your diet altogether. You'll be missing out but if you think you'll be damned to hell for eating vinegar or gelatin or anything else that may have a chance at being "haram" then maybe avoid it.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Astarte

[New Beginnings 32]

Aren't all vinegars really fermented "wine" of some sort? Isn't vinegar in a later stage of fermentation of wine? Just because it has "wine" in the title doesn't make it more halal or haram than any other kind of vinegar IMO.

Here is a blurb from a definition of vinegar I found online...

"Vinegar is the third stage of life in a sugar molecule. When sugar ferments or ages, it becomes alcohol. When alcohol ferments or ages it becomes vinegar. "

I don't know how accurate this website is but here goes...

http://www.islamawareness.net/Alcohol/fatwa_vinegar001.html

Honestly, if you're (or your husband) are that worried about haram/halal then maybe exclude vinegar from your diet altogether. You'll be missing out but if you think you'll be damned to hell for eating vinegar or gelatin or anything else that may have a chance at being "haram" then maybe avoid it.

That is so interesting!! In Morocco, everyone cooks with vinnegar... I don't understand that.

[ya falaha! 0]

Honestly, I think you'll be safe with any kind of vinegar. I know some will come and argue my point of view but really, from what I've read, it's ok to use vinegar.

[New Beginnings 32]

Well that would certainly make life easier. I've been unable to find substitutes.

[Jenn! 918]

The whole trace alcohol thing can get out of hand pretty easily. They say apple and grape juice contain alcohol, as does Pam cooking spray.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-51...in-alcohol.html

[ya falaha! 0]

Ketchup, mustard, BBQ sauce, hot sauce, pickles, etc. all contain vinegar as well.

I agree with Jenn...the trace alcohol thing is out of hand.

[New Beginnings 32]

So even though it says Balsamic or Red Wine in the title you feel because it's trace that it is ok?

I just don't want to do something that won't be ok for my husband

Edited October 8, 2009 by New Beginnings

[ya falaha! 0]

It's just a name! All vinegar was alcohol at some point.

So even though it says Balsamic or Red Wine in the title you feel because it's trace that it is ok?

[New Beginnings 32]

Well this definitely makes my life easier. I know he is fine with vinegar because he's grown up eating it. I just got stuck on the name!

thank you so much for the input!

[ya falaha! 0]

No prob!

[sandinista! 1,816]

we've been over this before, so i'm just copying what i wrote before. like astarte said, all vinegar was alcohol at some point, the only exception being true, authentic balsamic that usually costs over $100 a bottle.

the alcohol content is not higher in wine vinegars than non wine vinegars.

"What I see is that if wine changes into vinegar, it becomes pure and lawful as it has changed from its original state and this requires a new ruling as is the case with all other converted impurities regardless of whether this occurs naturally or by human interference. Wine itself is a pure substance as it was made from grapes. After becoming an intoxicant, it becomes prohibited. Once it changes and lacks the intoxicating characteristic, it regains its original ruling.

The view of the Hanafi scholars and those who follow them in this respect seems to be strong. They say that treating wine is similar to its natural change into vinegar as both involve the removal of the reason of prohibition, which is intoxication, as well as the attainment of its benefit of nourishment and medicinal purposes.

In addition, the reason for declaring it impure (i.e., intoxication) no longer stands. It is well known that a ruling is attached to its reason in terms of existence or otherwise.

-http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544262

i've read also that vinegar was one of the prophet's favorite condiments. what would be the source of the vinegar he used, if not wine?

in other schools, there is some debate over vinegar not being allowed if it was turned into vinegar on purpose. or that it's only allowed if it comes from a non-grape, non-date source. but in others, it's perfectly and completely ok.

[amysaid 9]

I asked the sheikh I saw at Al Azhar about this because I had seen it debated so many times, and hey, I had his ear for the moment, so why not? He said that since it had been changed from its original form (wine) into something else (vinegar) that it was ok, as long as it was not intoxicating. (sorry if other people have already said the same thing, didn't have time to read it all)

[venusfire503 54]

Hmmmm.... yeah, I noticed that whole 'vinegar' thing, too - that it's used in Morocco. My husband has learned about so many things that aren't allowed now that he's here (we've learned over time), and remembers them being available in Morocco - like 'gummy' candy. I guess no one there knows/realizes/is able to read the labels?

I've seen websites that say that many things are and are not allowed... some say gelatin is thought by some to be 'ok' since it's been so far removed from the animal that it doesn't really matter what animal has been used (I read this about Jewish dietary laws, which is why there's a K on Jell-O boxes - don't know if that's the reason, or if it's actually made with non-pig gelatin). I read somewhere that Skittles contain gelatin, and another place that they don't now. I read one place that there's something in cheese that makes it haram. One website said there's something in Doritos that's not allowed....

I stopped reading. It was all too confusing, and it seemed like either everything or nothing was ok to eat. What I do now is just avoid buying anything with pork, gelatin, or alcohol on the label (for my husband). At least in a name I recognize - I heard there are names that more or less disguise what we're eating. Kind of scary, if you think about it... (although the kids got a kick out of "cochineal extract" actually being dried, ground bugs - not used very often anymore, I think)

Not to start an argument, but if it's ok to have vinegar because it has changed its state, then why can't gelatin be 'ok' since the molecular bonds of the original substance have been broken down? I'm just curious (and maybe a little clueless? )

Oh, and for what it's worth - I've actually used vinegar (or lemon juice) in place of alcohol in recipes.

venusfire

Edited October 10, 2009 by venusfire503

[doodlebugg 10]

Oh, and for what it's worth - I've actually used vinegar (or lemon juice) in place of alcohol in recipes.

venusfire

I normally use chicken broth where a recipe calls for white wine and beef broth where it calls for red wine. There was a link here a long while ago showing non-alcoholic substitutes for different things such as brandy, wine, vodka, etc. I'm too lazy to look for it though but I think UmSqueakster may have posted it somewhere in the sultan thread that is pinned up above.

Just as an aside, if I worried about every little detail like vinegar, gelatin, etc. I think Id work myself into such a frenzy that Id find it completely tiresome and quit altogether trying to eat halal. My mom used to say "everything in moderation". Now I know that theory isn't supported by anything written, it's just me knowing myself all too well. Do I eat pork? No. Do I only eat out at restaurants that are halal? No. My own rule of thumb is if it doesn't get you drunk it's ok to use it. I know that goes against the whole "filth" concept wherein if it has any trace at all it's haram (think dijon mustard) but honestly I don't see myself going that far ever with it. It's hard enough praying five times/day, working fulltime, taking care of kids and being a wife. If I start scrutinizing everything I do I might as well just wave the white flag now.