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New Beginnings

Red Wine Vinegar

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Aren't all vinegars really fermented "wine" of some sort? Isn't vinegar in a later stage of fermentation of wine? Just because it has "wine" in the title doesn't make it more halal or haram than any other kind of vinegar IMO.

Here is a blurb from a definition of vinegar I found online...

"Vinegar is the third stage of life in a sugar molecule. When sugar ferments or ages, it becomes alcohol. When alcohol ferments or ages it becomes vinegar. "

I don't know how accurate this website is but here goes...

http://www.islamawareness.net/Alcohol/fatwa_vinegar001.html

Honestly, if you're (or your husband) are that worried about haram/halal then maybe exclude vinegar from your diet altogether. You'll be missing out but if you think you'll be damned to hell for eating vinegar or gelatin or anything else that may have a chance at being "haram" then maybe avoid it.

Edited by Astarte

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Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: Morocco
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Aren't all vinegars really fermented "wine" of some sort? Isn't vinegar in a later stage of fermentation of wine? Just because it has "wine" in the title doesn't make it more halal or haram than any other kind of vinegar IMO.

Here is a blurb from a definition of vinegar I found online...

"Vinegar is the third stage of life in a sugar molecule. When sugar ferments or ages, it becomes alcohol. When alcohol ferments or ages it becomes vinegar. "

I don't know how accurate this website is but here goes...

http://www.islamawareness.net/Alcohol/fatwa_vinegar001.html

Honestly, if you're (or your husband) are that worried about haram/halal then maybe exclude vinegar from your diet altogether. You'll be missing out but if you think you'll be damned to hell for eating vinegar or gelatin or anything else that may have a chance at being "haram" then maybe avoid it.

That is so interesting!! In Morocco, everyone cooks with vinnegar... I don't understand that.

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Filed: Citizen (apr) Country: Morocco
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The whole trace alcohol thing can get out of hand pretty easily. They say apple and grape juice contain alcohol, as does Pam cooking spray.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-51...in-alcohol.html

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Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: Morocco
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So even though it says Balsamic or Red Wine in the title you feel because it's trace that it is ok?

I just don't want to do something that won't be ok for my husband

Edited by New Beginnings

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we've been over this before, so i'm just copying what i wrote before. like astarte said, all vinegar was alcohol at some point, the only exception being true, authentic balsamic that usually costs over $100 a bottle.

the alcohol content is not higher in wine vinegars than non wine vinegars.

"What I see is that if wine changes into vinegar, it becomes pure and lawful as it has changed from its original state and this requires a new ruling as is the case with all other converted impurities regardless of whether this occurs naturally or by human interference. Wine itself is a pure substance as it was made from grapes. After becoming an intoxicant, it becomes prohibited. Once it changes and lacks the intoxicating characteristic, it regains its original ruling.

The view of the Hanafi scholars and those who follow them in this respect seems to be strong. They say that treating wine is similar to its natural change into vinegar as both involve the removal of the reason of prohibition, which is intoxication, as well as the attainment of its benefit of nourishment and medicinal purposes.

In addition, the reason for declaring it impure (i.e., intoxication) no longer stands. It is well known that a ruling is attached to its reason in terms of existence or otherwise.

-http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544262

i've read also that vinegar was one of the prophet's favorite condiments. what would be the source of the vinegar he used, if not wine?

in other schools, there is some debate over vinegar not being allowed if it was turned into vinegar on purpose. or that it's only allowed if it comes from a non-grape, non-date source. but in others, it's perfectly and completely ok.


I-love-Muslims-SH.gif

c00c42aa-2fb9-4dfa-a6ca-61fb8426b4f4_zps

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Filed: AOS (pnd) Country: Egypt
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I asked the sheikh I saw at Al Azhar about this because I had seen it debated so many times, and hey, I had his ear for the moment, so why not? He said that since it had been changed from its original form (wine) into something else (vinegar) that it was ok, as long as it was not intoxicating. (sorry if other people have already said the same thing, didn't have time to read it all)

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Hmmmm.... yeah, I noticed that whole 'vinegar' thing, too - that it's used in Morocco. My husband has learned about so many things that aren't allowed now that he's here (we've learned over time), and remembers them being available in Morocco - like 'gummy' candy. I guess no one there knows/realizes/is able to read the labels?

I've seen websites that say that many things are and are not allowed... some say gelatin is thought by some to be 'ok' since it's been so far removed from the animal that it doesn't really matter what animal has been used (I read this about Jewish dietary laws, which is why there's a K on Jell-O boxes - don't know if that's the reason, or if it's actually made with non-pig gelatin). I read somewhere that Skittles contain gelatin, and another place that they don't now. I read one place that there's something in cheese that makes it haram. One website said there's something in Doritos that's not allowed....

I stopped reading. It was all too confusing, and it seemed like either everything or nothing was ok to eat. What I do now is just avoid buying anything with pork, gelatin, or alcohol on the label (for my husband). At least in a name I recognize - I heard there are names that more or less disguise what we're eating. Kind of scary, if you think about it... (although the kids got a kick out of "cochineal extract" actually being dried, ground bugs - not used very often anymore, I think)

Not to start an argument, but if it's ok to have vinegar because it has changed its state, then why can't gelatin be 'ok' since the molecular bonds of the original substance have been broken down? I'm just curious (and maybe a little clueless? ^_^ )

Oh, and for what it's worth - I've actually used vinegar (or lemon juice) in place of alcohol in recipes.

venusfire

Edited by venusfire503

met online May 2006

visited him in Morocco July 2006

K-1 petition sent late September 2006 after second visit

December 2006 - third trip - went for his visa interview (stood outside all day)

visa approved! arrived here together right before Christmas 2006

married January 2007

AOS paperwork sent February 2007

RFE (yipee)

another RFE (yikes)

AOS approval July 2007

sent Removal of Conditions paperwork 01 May 2009

received I-751 NOA 14 May 2009

received ASC appt. notice 28 May 2009

biometrics appt. 12 June 2009

I-751 approval date 25 Sept 2009 (no updates on the system - still says 'received'/"initial review")

19 Oct 2009 - got text message "card production ordered"

24 Oct 2009 - actual card in the mail box!

sent his N-400 - 14 May 2010

check cashed 27 May 2010

NOA received 29 May 2010 (dated 24 May)

Biometrics Appointment Letter received 17 June 2010

Biometrics scheduled for 08 July 2010; walk-in successfully done in Philadelphia 07 July 2010

02 Oct 2010 - FINALLY got email saying the case was being transferred to the local office. Hoping to get his interview letter soon...

05 Oct 2010 - received interview letter!!!!

08 November 2010 - scheduled for N-400 interview

- went together for interview; file isn't there - need to wait to be rescheduled

Jan 2011 - went for Infopass

25 Feb 2011 - interview

19 April 2011 - Infopass

8 July 2011 - HE'S FINALLY A CITIZEN - WOO HOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

30 July 2011 - citizenship party

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Filed: AOS (apr) Country: Egypt
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Oh, and for what it's worth - I've actually used vinegar (or lemon juice) in place of alcohol in recipes.

venusfire

I normally use chicken broth where a recipe calls for white wine and beef broth where it calls for red wine. There was a link here a long while ago showing non-alcoholic substitutes for different things such as brandy, wine, vodka, etc. I'm too lazy to look for it though but I think UmSqueakster may have posted it somewhere in the sultan thread that is pinned up above.

Just as an aside, if I worried about every little detail like vinegar, gelatin, etc. I think Id work myself into such a frenzy that Id find it completely tiresome and quit altogether trying to eat halal. My mom used to say "everything in moderation". Now I know that theory isn't supported by anything written, it's just me knowing myself all too well. Do I eat pork? No. Do I only eat out at restaurants that are halal? No. My own rule of thumb is if it doesn't get you drunk it's ok to use it. I know that goes against the whole "filth" concept wherein if it has any trace at all it's haram (think dijon mustard) but honestly I don't see myself going that far ever with it. It's hard enough praying five times/day, working fulltime, taking care of kids and being a wife. If I start scrutinizing everything I do I might as well just wave the white flag now.


"Only from your heart can you touch the sky" - Rumi

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