Unwinnable War?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It depends on whose eye is making that determination. I doubt the victims of Nixon's carpet bombing campaign in Cambodia saw the US as a lighter shade of grey.

The only reason to support the US in its neo-imperialism is that we are the beneficiaries of it (though that becomes less than clear in the case of Iraq or Afghanistan), but that's hardly a moral view.

[Peikko 1,575]

What exactly are we doing in Afghanistan - Propping up a corrupt and failing government that can't stand up on its own?

It may or may not but this is what we get with the "Kinder Gentler" way of doing war.

If it's worth going to war it should be worth acting serious, you can win with fear of killing innocent peps.

Ask the city of Dresden Germany.

I think you should spend some time with some ww2 vets, before it's too late. Their feelings on killing innocent people was what led to the mass wave of revulsion against war and hence the notion of a peace keeping force that had no national allegiance. Sadly, national interests in the US were always the biggest obstacle to that being anything more than a 'unicorn and rainbows' project.

Those darn Americans.... always putting their "National interests" before others.

So sad,... hard to imagine "what might have been",

Perhaps a world where African children have hope in a better tomorrow instead of hope they won't be raped by U.N. workers tomorrow?

Try reading what is written instead of interpreting others words to fit your own agenda. As I said, try visting some of the vets from ww2 before it's too late.

I find it hard to believe you respect ANY veterans.

Why? Those who fight in wars are not responsible for starting them as a general rule of thumb so at the very least they deserve respect for putting their lives on the line.

I can only presume that you draw such a stupid conclusion because you don't draw a line of distinction between the actions of politicians and those who serve their country in the military.

[HAL 9000 96]

What exactly are we doing in Afghanistan - Propping up a corrupt and failing government that can't stand up on its own?

It may or may not but this is what we get with the "Kinder Gentler" way of doing war.

If it's worth going to war it should be worth acting serious, you can win with fear of killing innocent peps.

Ask the city of Dresden Germany.

I think you should spend some time with some ww2 vets, before it's too late. Their feelings on killing innocent people was what led to the mass wave of revulsion against war and hence the notion of a peace keeping force that had no national allegiance. Sadly, national interests in the US were always the biggest obstacle to that being anything more than a 'unicorn and rainbows' project.

Those darn Americans.... always putting their "National interests" before others.

So sad,... hard to imagine "what might have been",

Perhaps a world where African children have hope in a better tomorrow instead of hope they won't be raped by U.N. workers tomorrow?

Try reading what is written instead of interpreting others words to fit your own agenda. As I said, try visting some of the vets from ww2 before it's too late.

I find it hard to believe you respect ANY veterans.

Why? Those who fight in wars are not responsible for starting them as a general rule of thumb so at the very least they deserve respect for putting their lives on the line.

I can only presume that you draw such a stupid conclusion because you don't draw a line of distinction between the actions of politicians and those who serve their country in the military.

Its the one-line wonder. Enough said.

[Ban Hammer 14,619]

I find it hard to believe you respect ANY veterans.

War is hell... there hasn't been a war in history where some sort of atrocity wasn't committed. I am by no means condoning such things, but my point is that you have to look at the big picture. WWII was absolutely necessary & you can't "throw out the baby with the dirty bath water" just because some awful things happened.

As for national interests of course the US has some self-serving interests, but so does every other country. We are a great nation, but far from perfect. The world isn't black & white, but really just lighter & darker shades of gray. As long as we're a lighter shade of gray than everyone else that's about all you can hope for.

luckystrike, given he is one, i find that comment to be just a bit far fetched.

nowhere - agreed with your post.

Why? Those who fight in wars are not responsible for starting them as a general rule of thumb so at the very least they deserve respect for putting their lives on the line.

politicians do the lying, the military does the dying.

[HAL 9000 96]

Dying in waaaaaaaaay too many numbers.

[Peikko 1,575]

utch withdrawal from Afghanistan harbinger of Canadian dilemma

By Matthew Fisher, Canwest News ServiceJuly 24, 2009

Pushtun tribal leader Mohammad Daoud. at left, with elders of the Durrani sub-tribe, after telling Dutch soldiers, diplomats and aid workers that if the Dutch quit Uruzgan province next year, as the Hague has ordered, his people will sell either seek the protection of the Taliban or flee the country.

Pushtun tribal leader Mohammad Daoud. at left, with elders of the Durrani sub-tribe, after telling Dutch soldiers, diplomats and aid workers that if the Dutch quit Uruzgan province next year, as the Hague has ordered, his people will sell either seek the protection of the Taliban or flee the country.

Photograph by: Matthew Fisher, Canwest News Service

TARIN KOWT, Afghanistan — In a foretaste of what may be the Afghan response to a Canadian withdrawal of combat troops from Kandahar in 2011, a Pushtun leader in neighbouring Uruzgan has declared that if Dutch soldiers leave his province next year, as The Hague has ordered, he and his tribe will either seek the protection of the Taliban or flee the country.

Mohammed Daoud, the handsome, soft-spoken chief of the 25,000 Durrani, who live in the fertile northern reaches of Uruzgan, gave the stark warning to Dutch soldiers, diplomats and aid workers who met with him and six tribal elders at the main Dutch base in the province.

"If the Dutch leave, this is bad news," Daoud said over tea. "A lot of people will leave the area and I will be the first of them.

"This is not only my voice but the voice of my people. If it happens, I will make a hard decision. If it is safe, I will go to the Taliban for protection. If it isn't, I will go abroad."

After famously saving trapped Dutch soldiers from a Taliban attack two years ago, Daoud's father, Rozi Khan, was accidentally killed by Australian soldiers last year. The son, who was suddenly thrust into leadership in his mid-20s, believes the Dutch are abandoning his people to the mercy of an Afghan government which the Durrani feel strongly favour the Popolzai tribe. He was particularly incensed that President Hamid Karzai had made the Durrani's arch enemy, Jan Mohammad Khan, his senior tribal adviser.

"He (Khan) is the chief danger. All the problems we face are because of him," Daoud said, underlining the immensely complicated tribal politics and shifting allegiances that have confounded NATO's International Security Assistance Force everywhere in Afghanistan.

As careful as Canadians in Kandahar have been not to enter the political debate back home, Dutch officials in Tarin Kowt acknowledged that Daoud's view was shared by others in a province that is strategically important because it borders the highly volatile provinces of Helmand and Kandahar.

"I can imagine a district chief who has relationships with the Dutch military leaders or our cultural adviser would want us to stay," said Hans Peter Van Der Woude, the civilian deputy leader of the Dutch provincial reconstruction team.

"I would be lying if I were to say that we do not feel committed to this province, but another ISAF country can take our place because a long-term presence is needed."

That is easier said than done. As is the case in Kandahar if the Canadians leave in 2011, finding another country to take over as the lead ISAF nation in Uruzgan is extremely problematic. The Australians, who have recently deployed several hundred combat troops in Uruzgan, have unequivocally said they will not take over from the Dutch, while most NATO countries have long made it plain that they want no part of the war in the south.

Despite assurances from NATO that a replacement for the 2,200 Dutch will be found before they leave next year, there are strong doubts in Uruzgan that whoever comes next will know as much about their situation or show the same sensitivities as the Dutch, who are regarded as having a less offensive-minded approach to the war than some of their allies.

"The reason that most people are happy with the Dutch is that they respect our people," Daoud said. "Before they launch operations, they take all the do's and don'ts into account."

Dutch development worker Judith Maas asked: "The next team up, whether it is American or whatever, will they understand the conflict up north? If this is not understood, it will be very useful to the Taliban. They would like this."

While allowing for the possibility that another coalition country could help in one of the poorest provinces in this wretchedly poor country if the Dutch depart, "we don't want them to leave," Brig. Gen Abdul Hamid, an Afghan army commander, said. "We know our troops aren't good and that the Taliban will return to the area and press our people."

Although only 19 Dutch soldiers have died in Afghanistan, compared to 125 Canadians, several dozen kilometres to the south in Kandahar, the mission in Uruzgan is as big a political hot potato in The Hague as Kandahar's is in Ottawa. The Dutch, with half of Canada's population numbers and only 600 fewer troops in Afghanistan, have a shaky coalition government that has been wrestling with a deployment that has waning public support.

Putting the best possible face on the situation, Lt.-Gen. James Dutton, the Royal Marine who is the deputy commander of all 68,000 ISAF troops, said "the Canadians and the Dutch both have the opportunity to change their minds on this. So, I would not guarantee that either of these nations is leaving, but it is not up to me"

One way to convince Canada and The Netherlands to reverse their decisions to withdraw would be to change the perception that the war in Afghanistan is in danger of being lost, Dutton said.

"Nobody wants to leave an enterprise on its way up," the general said. "A perception of improvement and being on the right track militarily would make a huge difference."

As in Canada, there has been some commentary in The Netherlands suggesting that under the right circumstances — for example, if the government is not in danger of falling over the issue — there may be some kind of compromise to keep the Dutch in Afghanistan beyond next year's deadline.

"I don't know what to say. We are all guessing," Maj. Edwin Noordzij said when asked about this possibility. "The politicians are not saying anything about what they will do."

The Dutch are proud of what they have achieved so far. With 17 patrol bases across the province, the number of direct confrontations with the Taliban is down sharply over the past two years. The Tarin Kowt airport now has civilian flights which connect Uruzgan to Kabul. The number of boys going to school has also increased to 66,000 from 13,000, while the number of girls in school in this deeply conservative province has jumped to 7,000 from zero.

But as Noordzij and several other Dutch soldiers, diplomats and aid workers in Uruzgan said: "It will certainly take more than next year to complete the job.

Link

First heard about the Dutch approach on a BBC program but this explains it too. There is more to waging the Afghan war than just killing the Taliban.

[nowhereman 1]

I find it hard to believe you respect ANY veterans.

War is hell... there hasn't been a war in history where some sort of atrocity wasn't committed. I am by no means condoning such things, but my point is that you have to look at the big picture. WWII was absolutely necessary & you can't "throw out the baby with the dirty bath water" just because some awful things happened.

As for national interests of course the US has some self-serving interests, but so does every other country. We are a great nation, but far from perfect. The world isn't black & white, but really just lighter & darker shades of gray. As long as we're a lighter shade of gray than everyone else that's about all you can hope for.

luckystrike, given he is one, i find that comment to be just a bit far fetched.

nowhere - agreed with your post.

Why? Those who fight in wars are not responsible for starting them as a general rule of thumb so at the very least they deserve respect for putting their lives on the line.

politicians do the lying, the military does the dying.

Charles we have agreed twice today... better than fighting aye?

[Ban Hammer 14,619]

I find it hard to believe you respect ANY veterans.

War is hell... there hasn't been a war in history where some sort of atrocity wasn't committed. I am by no means condoning such things, but my point is that you have to look at the big picture. WWII was absolutely necessary & you can't "throw out the baby with the dirty bath water" just because some awful things happened.

As for national interests of course the US has some self-serving interests, but so does every other country. We are a great nation, but far from perfect. The world isn't black & white, but really just lighter & darker shades of gray. As long as we're a lighter shade of gray than everyone else that's about all you can hope for.

luckystrike, given he is one, i find that comment to be just a bit far fetched.

nowhere - agreed with your post.

Why? Those who fight in wars are not responsible for starting them as a general rule of thumb so at the very least they deserve respect for putting their lives on the line.

politicians do the lying, the military does the dying.

Charles we have agreed twice today... better than fighting aye?

then wander over to this thread and take a shot at the question:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...p;#entry3226853

[nowhereman 1]

I find it hard to believe you respect ANY veterans.

War is hell... there hasn't been a war in history where some sort of atrocity wasn't committed. I am by no means condoning such things, but my point is that you have to look at the big picture. WWII was absolutely necessary & you can't "throw out the baby with the dirty bath water" just because some awful things happened.

As for national interests of course the US has some self-serving interests, but so does every other country. We are a great nation, but far from perfect. The world isn't black & white, but really just lighter & darker shades of gray. As long as we're a lighter shade of gray than everyone else that's about all you can hope for.

luckystrike, given he is one, i find that comment to be just a bit far fetched.

nowhere - agreed with your post.

Why? Those who fight in wars are not responsible for starting them as a general rule of thumb so at the very least they deserve respect for putting their lives on the line.

politicians do the lying, the military does the dying.

Charles we have agreed twice today... better than fighting aye?

then wander over to this thread and take a shot at the question:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...p;#entry3226853

Yea that's the other thread we agreed upon. If you are referring to the question about which is the assault rifle logic would say its not the first one, but I smell a trick question.

[Ban Hammer 14,619]

I find it hard to believe you respect ANY veterans.

War is hell... there hasn't been a war in history where some sort of atrocity wasn't committed. I am by no means condoning such things, but my point is that you have to look at the big picture. WWII was absolutely necessary & you can't "throw out the baby with the dirty bath water" just because some awful things happened.

As for national interests of course the US has some self-serving interests, but so does every other country. We are a great nation, but far from perfect. The world isn't black & white, but really just lighter & darker shades of gray. As long as we're a lighter shade of gray than everyone else that's about all you can hope for.

luckystrike, given he is one, i find that comment to be just a bit far fetched.

nowhere - agreed with your post.

Why? Those who fight in wars are not responsible for starting them as a general rule of thumb so at the very least they deserve respect for putting their lives on the line.

politicians do the lying, the military does the dying.

Charles we have agreed twice today... better than fighting aye?

then wander over to this thread and take a shot at the question:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...p;#entry3226853

Yea that's the other thread we agreed upon. If you are referring to the question about which is the assault rifle logic would say its not the first one, but I smell a trick question.