President Reagan speaks about Socialized medicine.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

HB3200 would never be able to be implemented its vague and would be a disaster! Go try to read it!

Many bills are unintelligible to non-lawyers. What's new? If you couldn't comprehend it, then how do you know it would be a disaster? Maybe you did what the rest of us would do...you took the word of someone you trusted on the issue. Rush perhaps?

Speaking of disasters, go read your own insurance policy. It does not address the games your insurance can (and will) play on you. Been there/done that.

So therefore we should just accept it? Sheesh, gotta love that logic.,

OK...I see that I need to slow it down for you. "...you...took...the...word...of...someone...you...trusted...on...the...issu

e." I hope this made it easier for you to understand. We can go slower if you are still having problems with your reading comprehension.

Go read HB3200! Then get back to me. Its trash! 1000 pages of gobledy goop and your all for it? Ignorance is bliss.

I think the point you missed there was that the bill being "unintelligible" to a layman doesn't automatically make it a bad bill.

So me being a layman should be impressed by unintelligibilty? Are you kidding me? The more vague something is makes it intelligent? Wow.

Wow indeed Marc, because that isn't what I said.

How do you personally determine which proposed legislation is good and which is bad?

And don't give me any bollocks about how you don't trust government to manage a piss up in a brewery - I'm asking you specifically how you determine which legislation is in your interests and which isn't.

[HAL 9000 96]

There isn't a single proposal out there to socialize medicine in the US. Not one. But you seem to have fun attacking strawmen. Keep at it while the rest of the country focuses on real issues.

Where do you think Obama's health care plan would lead to, theres no reason for employers to provide insurance for there workers. If we go this route it will eventually become socialized.

Medicine will become socialized if we ensure that everyone has access to adequate health care by taking steps towards universal health insurance coverage? How have all the developed countries except the UK and Sweden (who pursued socialized health care as a model) managed to have private health care sectors while ofering universal coverage? Your argument makes no sense nor does it reflect reality in any way, shape or form.

So you agree it will lead to be socialized for the average Joe. Thats the point I was trying to make, you responded to the Reagan post saying "There isn't a single proposal out there to socialize medicine in the US" I think that is a dishonest in nature when we all know were it will lead too. Dems are trying to sell it in that manner too and they really dont give the people of enough credit. Its not looking to good to for the bill, and it seems people get it now if Dems can get it

No I do not agree. I specifically refuted that very point. I must ask, is it the reading or the comprehension that troubles you? Clearly, you haven't understood what I wrote.

No you dont get my point. Your being dishonest in nature if you try to say "There isn't a single proposal out there to socialize medicine in the US" because we know what this reform bill will lead to. So when I hear the countless people here at VJ and other places trying to get me on board with this bill because I will have other options well it just makes me want to laugh. I know better.

Why are you worrying what could happen years down the line?

You can't know what will happen in the future, or that there's any inevitability that the entire healthcare system will become nationalised as a result.

I like to look ahead and avoid problems.

What about this bill could lead me to believe we wont go down that road I mentioned? Bad or good idea aside people on the left need to start being honest about this bill, look at where it will lead to and address those issues.

Which bill?

I have not read anything in any of the bills that pave the way for any nationalized, socialized, whatever -ized system you want to call it. That one page 16 deal some people were making a fuss about was shown to be a lack of reading comprehension of legalese.

reform bill. So do you really think that most business wont go the way of the gov. considering it would be cheaper? What about this bill will not pave the road for socialized health care?

Question is for you- show us what about this bill reeks of a roadmap to socialized health care.

The bill is clear- it sets standards to follow. Nothing socialized about it.

[Heracles 417]

I am dishonest? I am dishonest for pointing out the fact that there are plenty of real world examples of how universal health care coverage does not lead to socialized medicine? Let me tell you that the only dishonest person in our little exhange is you for making a claim for which there isn't a shred of factual evidence. Not a shred. If there is evidence that supports your claim, please present it. Can't wait to see.

Who lives longer? Australians of Americans. Clearly, their NHS works pretty well for them. To that point you could say better. Hence, the living longer.

Aus has a public/private system and is actually looking at reforming towards the type of system Obama is proposing.

[HAL 9000 96]

LU-

Its best not to delve into the realm of telepathy when politics is involved.

Edited August 14, 2009 by HAL 9000

[natty bumppo 297]

If an actor says it's wrong, then surely, it must be wrong.

That addresses none of the points he made, it seems you want to discredit him somehow because he was a actor.

Bunch of BS rhetoric. Fact, you don't have the best medical system in the world. So don't give me this bull ####### that the hc system will be nationalized and turned to ######.

The other thing is that when clowns talk about the "number of pages", that is a bunch of hog wash too. The bill could be one page in length and these same individuals, who don't have a clue or education, would still complain about it.

Some people need to stick to quad driving and leave health care reform to those who earned a degree or two. We earned the right to think, they haven't.

earning a degree means a person knows when to come in out of the rain cause they are getting wet?

do try to stay with the issue.

[nowhereman 1]

If things are so great in those countries that you people list for examples of wonderful socialized medicine, then why don't you move there? Go to the wonderful utopian Socialized medicine countries instead of trying to come here, or bring your SO here. 65% of us are happy with our healthcare and insurance - we won't accept changing it.

Why do you assume that people who went through a visa process for a K1 or K3 visa moved here because of the health system, or that it somehow factored heavily in their decision?

That's stupid!

Just to keep this in context Joseph & Ana called Bill O'Reilly a liberal... using that as a benchmark for his views this guy is far to the right, so everything he says will be very slanted. Moreover I doubt very seriously anyone came to the USA because of the possibility of socialized medicine. It's beyond ridiculous to assert that.

[Joseph & Ana 0]

If things are so great in those countries that you people list for examples of wonderful socialized medicine, then why don't you move there? Go to the wonderful utopian Socialized medicine countries instead of trying to come here, or bring your SO here. 65% of us are happy with our healthcare and insurance - we won't accept changing it.

65%, really? So 1 in 3 is unhappy? Not very impressive.

I bet that statistic is as firmly grounded as the one about Rush's 98.8% accuracy rating (which is apparently "well documented").

Actually this one is common knowledge with all the polls going around. I knew the 98.8% would tweak you and you would focus in and continue your derangement syndrome as all liberals do. I was actually wrong though, I'm reading the study now and its 98.6% - sorry. I'll continue to not post the link to it so you can remain obsessed.

Also, 1 in 3 aren't satisfied means that the majority is satisfied and all you libs like majority rule when you're in power, but when you're not, it just gets to you doesn't it? Pesky will of the people thing gets in your way.

I never said to do nothing. However, a government option is not a good idea. I think the government can do plenty to encourage price competition among private entities, but a government mandated system is not the right thing to do.

[_Simpson_ 250]

If an actor says it's wrong, then surely, it must be wrong.

That addresses none of the points he made, it seems you want to discredit him somehow because he was a actor.

Bunch of BS rhetoric. Fact, you don't have the best medical system in the world. So don't give me this bull ####### that the hc system will be nationalized and turned to ######.

The other thing is that when clowns talk about the "number of pages", that is a bunch of hog wash too. The bill could be one page in length and these same individuals, who don't have a clue or education, would still complain about it.

Some people need to stick to quad driving and leave health care reform to those who earned a degree or two. We earned the right to think, they haven't.

See now your back to your stereotypes. Funny you should mention quads though, I just spent this last weekend riding, now excuse me I must get going I have been looking forward to chewing my cud all morning.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

HB3200 would never be able to be implemented its vague and would be a disaster! Go try to read it!

Many bills are unintelligible to non-lawyers. What's new? If you couldn't comprehend it, then how do you know it would be a disaster? Maybe you did what the rest of us would do...you took the word of someone you trusted on the issue. Rush perhaps?

Speaking of disasters, go read your own insurance policy. It does not address the games your insurance can (and will) play on you. Been there/done that.

So therefore we should just accept it? Sheesh, gotta love that logic.,

OK...I see that I need to slow it down for you. "...you...took...the...word...of...someone...you...trusted...on...the...issu

e." I hope this made it easier for you to understand. We can go slower if you are still having problems with your reading comprehension.

Go read HB3200! Then get back to me. Its trash! 1000 pages of gobledy goop and your all for it? Ignorance is bliss.

I think the point you missed there was that the bill being "unintelligible" to a layman doesn't automatically make it a bad bill.

So me being a layman should be impressed by unintelligibilty? Are you kidding me? The more vague something is makes it intelligent? Wow.

Wow indeed Marc, because that isn't what I said.

How do you personally determine which proposed legislation is good and which is bad?

And don't give me any bollocks about how you don't trust government to manage a piss up in a brewery - I'm asking you specifically how you determine which legislation is in your interests and which isn't.

Obama wanted the cramming of a bill two weeks ago. he doesnt give a hoot whats in it he just wants something passed. Go ask him that question.

[nowhereman 1]

If an actor says it's wrong, then surely, it must be wrong.

That addresses none of the points he made, it seems you want to discredit him somehow because he was a actor.

Bunch of BS rhetoric. Fact, you don't have the best medical system in the world. So don't give me this bull ####### that the hc system will be nationalized and turned to ######.

The other thing is that when clowns talk about the "number of pages", that is a bunch of hog wash too. The bill could be one page in length and these same individuals, who don't have a clue or education, would still complain about it.

Some people need to stick to quad driving and leave health care reform to those who earned a degree or two. We earned the right to think, they haven't.

earning a degree means a person knows when to come in out of the rain cause they are getting wet?

do try to stay with the issue.

I rarely agree with Natty, but I'm with him on this one... my dad has a high school diploma & he has more common sense & a grasp of the issues than most people with a college degree.

[Heracles 417]

earning a degree means a person knows when to come in out of the rain cause they are getting wet?

do try to stay with the issue.

Sure as heck means you have more of a clue than some factory worker. As I said, many should stick to what they know. same way I wouldn't come tell you which gun is the best. I could probably fire it better than you but could not discuss the gun.

Edited August 14, 2009 by haza

[HAL 9000 96]

Pretty soon we'll need to break out the online dictionaries to understand some posters, right nowehereman?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

There isn't a single proposal out there to socialize medicine in the US. Not one. But you seem to have fun attacking strawmen. Keep at it while the rest of the country focuses on real issues.

Where do you think Obama's health care plan would lead to, theres no reason for employers to provide insurance for there workers. If we go this route it will eventually become socialized.

Medicine will become socialized if we ensure that everyone has access to adequate health care by taking steps towards universal health insurance coverage? How have all the developed countries except the UK and Sweden (who pursued socialized health care as a model) managed to have private health care sectors while ofering universal coverage? Your argument makes no sense nor does it reflect reality in any way, shape or form.

So you agree it will lead to be socialized for the average Joe. Thats the point I was trying to make, you responded to the Reagan post saying "There isn't a single proposal out there to socialize medicine in the US" I think that is a dishonest in nature when we all know were it will lead too. Dems are trying to sell it in that manner too and they really dont give the people of enough credit. Its not looking to good to for the bill, and it seems people get it now if Dems can get it

No I do not agree. I specifically refuted that very point. I must ask, is it the reading or the comprehension that troubles you? Clearly, you haven't understood what I wrote.

No you dont get my point. Your being dishonest in nature if you try to say "There isn't a single proposal out there to socialize medicine in the US" because we know what this reform bill will lead to. So when I hear the countless people here at VJ and other places trying to get me on board with this bill because I will have other options well it just makes me want to laugh. I know better.

Why are you worrying what could happen years down the line?

You can't know what will happen in the future, or that there's any inevitability that the entire healthcare system will become nationalised as a result.

I like to look ahead and avoid problems.

What about this bill could lead me to believe we wont go down that road I mentioned? Bad or good idea aside people on the left need to start being honest about this bill, look at where it will lead to and address those issues.

Which bill?

I have not read anything in any of the bills that pave the way for any nationalized, socialized, whatever -ized system you want to call it. That one page 16 deal some people were making a fuss about was shown to be a lack of reading comprehension of legalese.

reform bill. So do you really think that most business wont go the way of the gov. considering it would be cheaper? What about this bill will not pave the road for socialized health care?

So you now want to say that if the government offers health insurance it will be less expensive than what we currently have under the private insurance model? Wouldn't that be a desirable outcome? Wouldn't that be good for businesses and the economy overall? And don't you think that businesses will be capable of making smart decisions as to whether to continue to offer overpriced insurance or go with a more efficient option? Perhaps businesses would offer employees a choice to go one way or the other? Offer incentives to employees that choose a more cost efficient alternative? Leaving more funds for the business to do business, more money in the pocket of the employee. What a horrible world it could be. Of course, choice is always bad. Makes them insurance companies actually compete, actually work for their keep. Competition. What an aweful concept for a market economy.

[Joseph & Ana 0]

If things are so great in those countries that you people list for examples of wonderful socialized medicine, then why don't you move there? Go to the wonderful utopian Socialized medicine countries instead of trying to come here, or bring your SO here. 65% of us are happy with our healthcare and insurance - we won't accept changing it.

Why do you assume that people who went through a visa process for a K1 or K3 visa moved here because of the health system, or that it somehow factored heavily in their decision?

That's stupid!

Just to keep this in context Joseph & Ana called Bill O'Reilly a liberal... using that as a benchmark for his views this guy is far to the right, so everything he says will be very slanted. Moreover I doubt very seriously anyone came to the USA because of the possibility of socialized medicine. It's beyond ridiculous to assert that.

Everything anyone says is slanted to their own opinon Nowhereman. Thats an interesting assertion.

I am definitely far to the right. Thank you for illustrating again that he put words in my mouth, because I never said anyone moved here for socialized medicine. Pike likes to purposely miss the point and go off on tangents. When he has nothing intelligent to say, he goes back to his 98.8% obsession. If i hadn't mentioned that, he'd be saying something about Bush i'm sure.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If things are so great in those countries that you people list for examples of wonderful socialized medicine, then why don't you move there? Go to the wonderful utopian Socialized medicine countries instead of trying to come here, or bring your SO here. 65% of us are happy with our healthcare and insurance - we won't accept changing it.

65%, really? So 1 in 3 is unhappy? Not very impressive.

I bet that statistic is as firmly grounded as the one about Rush's 98.8% accuracy rating (which is apparently "well documented").

Actually this one is common knowledge with all the polls going around. I knew the 98.8% would tweak you and you would focus in and continue your derangement syndrome as all liberals do. I was actually wrong though, I'm reading the study now and its 98.6% - sorry. I'll continue to not post the link to it so you can remain obsessed.

Also, 1 in 3 aren't satisfied means that the majority is satisfied and all you libs like majority rule when you're in power, but when you're not, it just gets to you doesn't it? Pesky will of the people thing gets in your way.

I never said to do nothing. However, a government option is not a good idea. I think the government can do plenty to encourage price competition among private entities, but a government mandated system is not the right thing to do.

Joe - I don't think many people besides you seriously believes that Rush Limbaugh is 98.8, 98.6 or any other arbitrary percentage figure of accuracy. So I'm not surprised you won't substantiate it - for the simple reason that:

1) It doesn't exist

2) You are a liar

If you think I take it seriously, you are sadly mistaken. I like it because its proves, if nothing else that you personally are 98.8% delusional

Keep on with the libs stuff BTW - I get a huge laugh out of that too.