Is It Really Necessary????

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

What evidence do you require Lisa? To be able to handle the Long certificate in your own hands? What arrogance is that to assume that you can recognize the legitimacy of a document better than the administrative staff who keep these records in Hawaii and provided the LEGITIMATE short certificate for all to see?

Yes, it's arrogance to presume the 'other side' lacks common sense because you see things differently.

The point here is, NONE of us truly know ####### is going on...none of you can say why it hasn't been produced. You think it's fine, that's great. Others don't. I'm not claiming the short certification of birth is a forgery. I'm saying it's not the long form Birth Certificate. I'm saying I find it odd that those records (and others) are being kept under such secrecy and the POTUS is unwilling to put a stop to all this simply by providing something which is supposed to be a document of the people.

Any more explanation needed and you'll have to read what I've already written.

I think it isn't being produced because there's simply no valid reason to do so. The citizenship of the President is established via the birth record that has been made public and that's all there is. Why would anyone believe that there's a legitimate need to feed the lunatic fringe that cannot accept that the record provided proves the President was born in Honolulu on 4 August 1961?

Edited July 17, 2009 by Mr. Big Dog

[Peikko 1,575]

Well, you carry on believing whatever you want to believe. However, you seem to be suggesting that Obama should pander to any and every whim of Joe Public. Do you also believe that every member of the federal government is somehow 'in on' this so called consiperacy? Do you not think the likes of McCain Palin would have stomped all over this had their been even a glimmer of hope that there was something in it? What is your explanation for that? Did they 'drop the ball' or do you perhaps believe they, and the rest of the House and Senate republicans were scared of Obama/Public Opinon/The liberal media?

[Peikko 1,575]

It's quite arrogant to presume your 'side' of the opinion is the only one which employs 'common sense'. And it's apparent to me that it's quite a waste of time to think I can help you understand that.

And it's apparently a waste of time to try to make a lunatic fringe that in well over a year and via numerous cases it brought to the courts failed to convince even a single judge - much less the public at large - that there is any merit whatsoever to their "case" acknowledge that they are hanging on to nothing but an illusion. There's no common sense to be detected if all you have are claims without any shred of any actual evidence that these claims have any merit.

What evidence do you require Lisa? To be able to handle the Long certificate in your own hands? What arrogance is that to assume that you can recognize the legitimacy of a document better than the administrative staff who keep these records in Hawaii and provided the LEGITIMATE short certificate for all to see?

And confirmed that the short form accurately reflects what the original states.

Bingo. Of course, this isn't really true - or they were bribed or whatever else was suggested. Really no proof will do. Faced with such beligerance I would do an Obama and choose to ignore it. In fact, from now on, I think that is just what I will do

[Fandango 1,440]

What evidence do you require Lisa? To be able to handle the Long certificate in your own hands? What arrogance is that to assume that you can recognize the legitimacy of a document better than the administrative staff who keep these records in Hawaii and provided the LEGITIMATE short certificate for all to see?

Yes, it's arrogance to presume the 'other side' lacks common sense because you see things differently.

The point here is, NONE of us truly know ####### is going on...none of you can say why it hasn't been produced. You think it's fine, that's great. Others don't. I'm not claiming the short certification of birth is a forgery. I'm saying it's not the long form Birth Certificate. I'm saying I find it odd that those records (and others) are being kept under such secrecy and the POTUS is unwilling to put a stop to all this simply by providing something which is supposed to be a document of the people.

Any more explanation needed and you'll have to read what I've already written.

I think it isn't being produced because there's simply no valid reason to do so. The citizenship of the President is established via the birth record that has been made public and that's all there is. Why would anyone believe that there's a legitimate need to feed the lunatic fringe that cannot accept that the record provided proves the President was born in Honolulu on 4 August 1961?

It's funny, you insult me by referring to me as part of the 'lunatic fringe' yet you then continually engage me in debate. Regardless of the fact that I have continually asked for respect and for people to refrain from mocking anyone's opinion. Yet you cannot even do that.

If I thought someone were truly a lunatic conspiracy theorist, I'd dismiss them immediately and not waste my time. You act as if you are somehow in some 'secret know' as to the whys and wherefores...when you have just as much authority on the subject as anyone else here, unless you have O on speed dial How long is a piece of string? Subjectivity, get it?

As I said God knows how many posts ago...there are too many questions surrounding his past which all add up to a picture of extreme resistance and secrecy. His resistance to provide public records (just so we're clear, I'm talking about the Actual Birth Certificate here) as well as other documents is quite telling. You're satisfied with the explanation as to why (or actually, the lack thereof)? GREAT! I'm not. You're not better than me, and vice versa. Again...subjectivity.

[HAL 9000 96]

It's quite arrogant to presume your 'side' of the opinion is the only one which employs 'common sense'. And it's apparent to me that it's quite a waste of time to think I can help you understand that.

As opposed to 'the side' that grasps at what? Information that only they seem to 'know' and 'see' or 'suspect'??

In most people's thesauruses (sp) that usually can be classified under the common term 'conspiracy.'

But like I said- I defend your right to do so.

What evidence do you require Lisa? To be able to handle the Long certificate in your own hands? What arrogance is that to assume that you can recognize the legitimacy of a document better than the administrative staff who keep these records in Hawaii and provided the LEGITIMATE short certificate for all to see?

Did you catch the part about the auction?

It's quite arrogant to presume your 'side' of the opinion is the only one which employs 'common sense'. And it's apparent to me that it's quite a waste of time to think I can help you understand that.

And it's apparently a waste of time to try to make a lunatic fringe that in well over a year and via numerous cases it brought to the courts failed to convince even a single judge - much less the public at large - that there is any merit whatsoever to their "case" acknowledge that they are hanging on to nothing but an illusion. There's no common sense to be detected if all you have are claims without any shred of any actual evidence that these claims have any merit.

What evidence do you require Lisa? To be able to handle the Long certificate in your own hands? What arrogance is that to assume that you can recognize the legitimacy of a document better than the administrative staff who keep these records in Hawaii and provided the LEGITIMATE short certificate for all to see?

And confirmed that the short form accurately reflects what the original states.

Those cases... could they be considered frivolous? In your opinion that is.

What evidence do you require Lisa? To be able to handle the Long certificate in your own hands? What arrogance is that to assume that you can recognize the legitimacy of a document better than the administrative staff who keep these records in Hawaii and provided the LEGITIMATE short certificate for all to see?

Yes, it's arrogance to presume the 'other side' lacks common sense because you see things differently.

The point here is, NONE of us truly know ####### is going on...none of you can say why it hasn't been produced. You think it's fine, that's great. Others don't. I'm not claiming the short certification of birth is a forgery. I'm saying it's not the long form Birth Certificate. I'm saying I find it odd that those records (and others) are being kept under such secrecy and the POTUS is unwilling to put a stop to all this simply by providing something which is supposed to be a document of the people.

Any more explanation needed and you'll have to read what I've already written.

If he doesn't want you to see his long form birth certificate, then he doesn't have to show you. However, I am auctioning it because I have a copy.

[NArocks 13]

In most people's thesauruses (sp) that usually can be classified under the common term 'conspiracy.'

Brother Hal it must be late for this to happen to you

Edited July 17, 2009 by NArocks

[Fandango 1,440]

Well, you carry on believing whatever you want to believe. However, you seem to be suggesting that Obama should pander to any and every whim of Joe Public. Do you also believe that every member of the federal government is somehow 'in on' this so called consiperacy? Do you not think the likes of McCain Palin would have stomped all over this had their been even a glimmer of hope that there was something in it? What is your explanation for that? Did they 'drop the ball' or do you perhaps believe they, and the rest of the House and Senate republicans were scared of Obama/Public Opinon/The liberal media?

Unlike others, I don't claim to have all the answers If you've been paying attn, I've been asking questions I never said anything about any cover up, never mentioned the word 'forgery'...what I said was, why is it not being produced? Why is he spending all this money to keep these things secret? Why is he allowing a PUBLIC DOCUMENT to be hidden to the point that it's affecting our military, affecting our court system? Don't fight me because of partisan loyalty. It's so overdone here in OT as it is.

[HAL 9000 96]

What evidence do you require Lisa? To be able to handle the Long certificate in your own hands? What arrogance is that to assume that you can recognize the legitimacy of a document better than the administrative staff who keep these records in Hawaii and provided the LEGITIMATE short certificate for all to see?

Yes, it's arrogance to presume the 'other side' lacks common sense because you see things differently.

The point here is, NONE of us truly know ####### is going on...none of you can say why it hasn't been produced. You think it's fine, that's great. Others don't. I'm not claiming the short certification of birth is a forgery. I'm saying it's not the long form Birth Certificate. I'm saying I find it odd that those records (and others) are being kept under such secrecy and the POTUS is unwilling to put a stop to all this simply by providing something which is supposed to be a document of the people.

Any more explanation needed and you'll have to read what I've already written.

I think it isn't being produced because there's simply no valid reason to do so. The citizenship of the President is established via the birth record that has been made public and that's all there is. Why would anyone believe that there's a legitimate need to feed the lunatic fringe that cannot accept that the record provided proves the President was born in Honolulu on 4 August 1961?

I refuse to call them loonies. I prefer to call them people with (a sour?) attempt to politicize what is a non-issue.

[HAL 9000 96]

In most people's thesauruses (sp) that usually can be classified under the common term 'conspiracy.'

Brother Hal it must be late for this to happen to you

I just had a brownie.

With walnuts.

[Peikko 1,575]

It's not being produced because everyone that counts, including all the Senators and House members in government know that the necessary and LEGITIMATE document has aleady been produced and has been verfied as reflecting the true and acurate contents of the original. There is no keeping anything secret, there is simply a non pandering to the whims of people who would not be satisfied even if they had been present during the actual birth.

Oh, and I have no partisan loyalties at all. I am not that fond of Obama, he certainly does not represent my views on a number of important issues. I am simply not persuaded that there is anything to be concerned about in this issue, or should I say non-issue.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Madame Cleo

[HAL 9000 96]

So... next non-issue:

President Obama is NOT the President of the USA because Justice Roberts messed up his swearing in.

Oh snap can't do that one... they did it right later to make sure it was done right.

Seriously... the drug addicted Muslim is still up for grabs.

[Peikko 1,575]

Incidentally, the province my son was born in produces a similar document. I have not even seen the long form of his birth certificate myself and would certainly be nonplussed should someone demand I produce it - it was not required for my son's K3 or AOS.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Madame Cleo

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

What evidence do you require Lisa? To be able to handle the Long certificate in your own hands? What arrogance is that to assume that you can recognize the legitimacy of a document better than the administrative staff who keep these records in Hawaii and provided the LEGITIMATE short certificate for all to see?

Yes, it's arrogance to presume the 'other side' lacks common sense because you see things differently.

The point here is, NONE of us truly know ####### is going on...none of you can say why it hasn't been produced. You think it's fine, that's great. Others don't. I'm not claiming the short certification of birth is a forgery. I'm saying it's not the long form Birth Certificate. I'm saying I find it odd that those records (and others) are being kept under such secrecy and the POTUS is unwilling to put a stop to all this simply by providing something which is supposed to be a document of the people.

Any more explanation needed and you'll have to read what I've already written.

I think it isn't being produced because there's simply no valid reason to do so. The citizenship of the President is established via the birth record that has been made public and that's all there is. Why would anyone believe that there's a legitimate need to feed the lunatic fringe that cannot accept that the record provided proves the President was born in Honolulu on 4 August 1961?

It's funny, you insult me by referring to me as part of the 'lunatic fringe' yet you then continually engage me in debate. Regardless of the fact that I have continually asked for respect and for people to refrain from mocking anyone's opinion. Yet you cannot even do that.

If I thought someone were truly a lunatic conspiracy theorist, I'd dismiss them immediately and not waste my time. You act as if you are somehow in some 'secret know' as to the whys and wherefores...when you have just as much authority on the subject as anyone else here, unless you have O on speed dial How long is a piece of string? Subjectivity, get it?

As I said God knows how many posts ago...there are too many questions surrounding his past which all add up to a picture of extreme resistance and secrecy. His resistance to provide public records (just so we're clear, I'm talking about the Actual Birth Certificate here) as well as other documents is quite telling. You're satisfied with the explanation as to why (or actually, the lack thereof)? GREAT! I'm not. You're not better than me, and vice versa. Again...subjectivity.

You are capable of reading, yes? I don't claim to be 'in the know', I express my take on why a certain - and quite irrelevant - record isn't being released. To make sure that it is clear that it is my take on the issue, I start my statement with the short phrase "I think" which indicates that I am expressing my opinion. How you end up translating that into my being 'in the know' is beyond me. But I guess my writing is somewhat suspicious too.

I don't see it as the President's resistance to release public records (the birth certificate he made available is such public record, by the way) but rather as a reasonable approach in dealing with this tiny fraction of the population that appears to be subscribing to some conspiracy theory (yes, I like to call this segment a lunatic fringe much like I'd call the 9/11 truth squad such).

The question is really not whether you or I are satisfied with what has been made public but whether or not it meets the requirements. The courts thus far have found that it does - and I'd put a pretty good bet on that continuing to be the case. How many more lawsuits of the same color need to be filed and tossed out for that message to sink in with this segment of the population? How arrogant to continue to show such blatant disregard for the judicial system of this great nation and to stipulate that the State of Hawaii and it's officials are not to be trusted.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Mr. Big Dog

[Peikko 1,575]

Or indeed his UK passport. The document I have is absolutely legitimate and all that anyone is ever required to produce.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

It's quite arrogant to presume your 'side' of the opinion is the only one which employs 'common sense'. And it's apparent to me that it's quite a waste of time to think I can help you understand that.

And it's apparently a waste of time to try to make a lunatic fringe that in well over a year and via numerous cases it brought to the courts failed to convince even a single judge - much less the public at large - that there is any merit whatsoever to their "case" acknowledge that they are hanging on to nothing but an illusion. There's no common sense to be detected if all you have are claims without any shred of any actual evidence that these claims have any merit.

Those cases... could they be considered frivolous? In your opinion that is.

Yes. And I am not alone.

[Judge] Robertson ordered plaintiff's attorney John Hemenway of Colorado Springs, Colo., to show why he hasn't violated court rules barring frivolous and harassing cases and shouldn't have to pay Obama's attorney, Bob Bauer, for his time arguing that the case should be thrown out.