Flag waving

[rebeccajo 14]

There's a full moon coming up

godsavethequeen was IMO being very tongue in cheek for the most part. A humor misunderstanding if ever I saw one.

True.

BUT....it helps to have full knowledge of what one is criticizing before one bites one's tongue off in cheek.

[Ban Hammer 12,896]

now where is fuzz? he's got an appointment with the rifle range

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Wow, I've just read over this thread as a bystander.

Everybody needs to lighten up a bit. Godsavethequeen has every right to state his opinion about the U.S. or any other country as everyone else here. It's when you start telling him or anyone else to essentially shut up then it's a problem.

Has he been offensive? Perhaps to some, but I don't detect any deliberate malice in his posts (minus the name-calling but he didn't start that).

Take a few breaths everyone and lighten up...for Crikey Sake!

hooray and thankyou xxxx

If anything, you certainly demonstrated what you were talking about...hehehe. I've lived here all my life and followed politics for the last 20 years, and I have never seen our nation be so polarized. I'm guessing that is what you were eluding to. I watched Senator Barack Obama in an interview say that even during Reagan's era, Republican and Democrat members of congress would chat and engage each other on a social level. Tip O'Neal (Dem Leader of the Senate) used to golf with Reagan. But it's not happening now and actually it is scary. At the risk of pointing fingers, the new era of Republicans (NeoCons) have come to Washington with an air of righteousness and superiority. They have such discontent for anyone else's ideology that they don't want to have anything to do with those who don't think like they do. It's sad. If there's any glimmer of hope - that dynasty is imploding with all the scandals - this November will be telling in whether we will take this country in a new direction. The biggest fear politically that the American people should have though is over these hack computer voting machines - there is numerous evidence of innaccuracy and voting fraud.

[JAYKE 0]

Sigh. Here I go...

First of all, I believe this thread was started by the OP in reference to this thread: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...19599&st=60

In that thread, apparently, people were taking issue with either (a) his understanding of buddhism, (B) his view of Thanksgiving, © putting lyrics to a Sex Pistols song on the thread.

It would appear to me that perhaps some of that thread's readers were taking all three of those things WAY TOO personally, which boggles my mind, I must say.

So this thread was started after someone posted the typical "If you have such a problem with America, why are you coming here?"

So now I take it upon myself to jump into the mix with a few obvious (to me anyway) observations:

1. Like it or not, America is NOT held in the highest esteem to ALL countries. To many we ARE thick, greedy redneck bullies. Do I think it's a true representation? No, of course not. Do I think we sometimes allow ourselves to be portrayed as such? Unfortunately we do (including posting things on websites like offering to "gladly put a few holes" in someone's head" for offering a dissenting opinion). If you don't like what's being said about a particular group, is it because it hits too close to home? Or, is it because you think its an unfair generalization; if so, what are you doing to change that perception?

2. There are MANY people on this board who would NEVER have considered moving to America if it weren't for the fact that this is where the person they love resides. My husband is one of them. His opinion of the US was never great, and he wouldn't be here now if it weren't for me. That doesn't mean he doesn't still see this country as flawed in many ways... Should he be forced to alter his beliefs or constantly censor himself because he wants to be with the person he loves? Of course not. Should we be attacking them for trying to make the best of their situation and maybe vent a little anxiety in a humorous way? I think it's probably stressful enough moving to a country where you don't neccessarily know where you'll fit in without being attacked in the very manner you're worried about.

My husband was very worried before he came here, that Americans wouldn't "get" him, or be able to tolerate his somewhat in your face (by American standards) approach to debate, political or otherwise. His views on social responsibility, the death penalty and gun control were decidedly more "British" than the stereotypical American view. The things the OP stated in this and the previous thread were exactly the jokes my husband would make before he got here. He'd often say to me "I'd better watch what I say when I get there, otherwise, they'll have a room waiting for me at Guantanamo". I'd laugh and tell him that wouldn't be the case, that we Americans can laugh at ourselves too.

However, Seeing what I have on this thread, I'm grateful he never posted to this board before he got here. He may never have come.

So yeah, lighten up folks.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If anything, you certainly demonstrated what you were talking about...hehehe. I've lived here all my life and followed politics for the last 20 years, and I have never seen our nation be so polarized. I'm guessing that is what you were eluding to. I watched Senator Barack Obama in an interview say that even during Reagan's era, Republican and Democrat members of congress would chat and engage each other on a social level. Tip O'Neal (Dem Leader of the Senate) used to golf with Reagan. But it's not happening now and actually it is scary. At the risk of pointing fingers, the new era of Republicans (NeoCons) have come to Washington with an air of righteousness and superiority. They have such discontent for anyone else's ideology that they don't want to have anything to do with those who don't think like they do. It's sad. If there's any glimmer of hope - that dynasty is imploding with all the scandals - this November will be telling in whether we will take this country in a new direction. The biggest fear politically that the American people should have though is over these hack computer voting machines - there is numerous evidence of innaccuracy and voting fraud.

This is an opinion from another forum I participate in - I think there's some interesting food for thought there. As I said, its natural to criticize whatever country you happen to be live in, based on your experiences living in that country. Its a far cry of course to assume from specific criticisms about politics, the economy, public assistance etc that a person "should leave if they don't like it". While I don't agree (in the main) with making sweeping, general statements about it (as the temptation is always there to resort to stereotyping), its certainly not reasonable to stifle debate about specific issues by writing it off as unpatriotic. Patriotism is nice for 4th July, but on a practical basis - its really irrelevant to day to day life.

The problem with abolishing parties is that power-groupings will always form so it might be just as well for us to be able to see them, rather than having to guess at who they are. I have always been inclined to vote, at least where it's possible, for the person not the party. In America, of course, I pay taxes but I have no representation, as I've often said. I'm going to start throwing someone's tea into Lake Austin if this goes on much longer. A serious problem is, as you say, the fact that you need to be rich in order to become a representative of the average income earner... My experience has always been that rich people just CAN'T imagine what it's really like to be poor. Yet at what point are we going to be able to get to the position where a person of average earnings is going to represent their constituency. At least the UK system tends to mean that MPs are drawn more from a broader social cross-section than they are in the US, though there's still a tendency for them to come from the professional classes, especially lawyers. However, I suspect that Labour's back-benchers, so many of whom voted against the war and against various of Blair's attempts to shift further towards economic liberalism, still represent a greater number of citizens than do American representatives. I still pin my faith on the likes of Dennis Kosinich, who seemed to be elected governor by the majority of the people he represents in Ohio. But how few there are! At least Bill Clinton came up from relative poverty, as did LBJ. GWB, though very good at pretending to be a blue-collar know-nothing, is drawn from the elite political class like his father. What amazes me is that he is so generally unrepresentative of the people. Of course the grey eminence of Cheney, he most powerful ever VP, looms always in the background. It's a pretty depressing time for democracy.

There was a time when the American model was the best model for democracy and America really did lead the way, but that time passed in the middle of the 20th century. Now the EU, so long as it avoids further centralisation, seems a better model, with each member state retaining its sovereignty but united, for instance, in its acceptance (signed into law) of the universal declaration of human rights (the Human Rights Act). A simpler constitution, based on the HRA, could also be arrived at. If the Magna Carta was the first step to egalitarian justice, the HRA is the latest. That America has refused to be a signatory to the UDHR proves to me that the current power-mongers have no interest in increasing liberty and democracy in the world, in contradiction to the rhetoric constantly reiterated by Bush and his cronies to justify their sending their fellow citizens to their deaths in a conflict which only benefits big business against an enemy who never threatened American freedom or democracy. Actions speak a lot louder than words. What depresses me is that American citizens do not feel part of the ongoing process of increasing liberty and justice at home. They behave as if the job is done and that no more work is needed. This is the beginning of democracy, which must constantly evolve to meet the needs of each generation, not the culmination. We have an administration in the US which has actually reversed the process!

[Ban Hammer 12,896]

Patriotism is nice for 4th July, but on a practical basis - its really irrelevant to day to day life.

you were doing pretty good until you said that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Patriotism is nice for 4th July, but on a practical basis - its really irrelevant to day to day life.

you were doing pretty good until you said that.

How so? Waving the flag is all very nice, but it doesn't grant you decent healthcare, representative politicians, or affordable housing does it?

Much of it seems to depend on who is making the criticisms, immigrants are essentially second class citizens (sorry residents). In that sense if we were being honest with ourselves we would actually address the issues raised, rather than (what invariably happens) which is to attack the messenger, thereby putting the problem out of sight, and out of mind.

Edited July 2, 2006 by Fishdude

[Ban Hammer 12,896]

Patriotism is nice for 4th July, but on a practical basis - its really irrelevant to day to day life.

you were doing pretty good until you said that.

How so? Waving the flag is all very nice, but it doesn't grant you decent healthcare, representative politicians, or affordable housing does it?

Much of it seems to depend on who is making the criticisms, immigrants are essentially second class citizens (sorry residents). In that sense if we were being honest with ourselves we would actually address the issues raised, rather than (what invariably happens) which is to attack the messenger, thereby putting the problem out of sight, and out of mind.

"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson

Its an abstract concept that is defined by how you use it.

If you use it, for example, as a shield to hide behind while attacking others for their opinions (and I'm not talking about baseless stereotypes here - but real issues that affect day to day life in this country), then it becomes the anithesis of what you have described.

[Fandango 1,439]

Sigh. Here I go...

First of all, I believe this thread was started by the OP in reference to this thread: http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...19599&st=60

In that thread, apparently, people were taking issue with either (a) his understanding of buddhism, (B) his view of Thanksgiving, © putting lyrics to a Sex Pistols song on the thread.

It would appear to me that perhaps some of that thread's readers were taking all three of those things WAY TOO personally, which boggles my mind, I must say.

So this thread was started after someone posted the typical "If you have such a problem with America, why are you coming here?"

So now I take it upon myself to jump into the mix with a few obvious (to me anyway) observations:

1. Like it or not, America is NOT held in the highest esteem to ALL countries. To many we ARE thick, greedy redneck bullies. Do I think it's a true representation? No, of course not. Do I think we sometimes allow ourselves to be portrayed as such? Unfortunately we do (including posting things on websites like offering to "gladly put a few holes" in someone's head" for offering a dissenting opinion). If you don't like what's being said about a particular group, is it because it hits too close to home? Or, is it because you think its an unfair generalization; if so, what are you doing to change that perception?

2. There are MANY people on this board who would NEVER have considered moving to America if it weren't for the fact that this is where the person they love resides. My husband is one of them. His opinion of the US was never great, and he wouldn't be here now if it weren't for me. That doesn't mean he doesn't still see this country as flawed in many ways... Should he be forced to alter his beliefs or constantly censor himself because he wants to be with the person he loves? Of course not. Should we be attacking them for trying to make the best of their situation and maybe vent a little anxiety in a humorous way? I think it's probably stressful enough moving to a country where you don't neccessarily know where you'll fit in without being attacked in the very manner you're worried about.

My husband was very worried before he came here, that Americans wouldn't "get" him, or be able to tolerate his somewhat in your face (by American standards) approach to debate, political or otherwise. His views on social responsibility, the death penalty and gun control were decidedly more "British" than the stereotypical American view. The things the OP stated in this and the previous thread were exactly the jokes my husband would make before he got here. He'd often say to me "I'd better watch what I say when I get there, otherwise, they'll have a room waiting for me at Guantanamo". I'd laugh and tell him that wouldn't be the case, that we Americans can laugh at ourselves too.

However, Seeing what I have on this thread, I'm grateful he never posted to this board before he got here. He may never have come.

So yeah, lighten up folks.

Ok here's my .02....

IMO America is only held in low regard when it suits other people. I find it a bit of a bandwagon mentality.

America does a lot of good around the world every day, including doling out billions of dollars to other countries in need. Yet as I said in another thread, it's all very fashionable to bash us as a whole. Who's pointing out the good we do? I get slightly annoyed with this ignorant bandwagon mentality...while it would make great fodder for the pretentious coffehouses of the world, it's really not based wholly in truth or without it's one-sidedness. Yes, sometimes I chuckle at how ignorant someone looks when they just spew the same ol same ol regurgitated ####### out, but other times it gets on my last nerve because it's really not an accurate truth. And yes, if someone is spewing out all sorts at how we're all backwards rednecks who chew tobacco and own guns and whatnot....well, obviously there's an underlying tone to that so it begs the question 'if it's so bad, why contemplate emigration?' I think it's a logical question at times. No, I don't think 'good' Americans don't question their government...but at least take umbrage AFTER knowing and researching the full truth. It's like skewering a survey to get your desired result...don't just ignore the things that don't fit your opinion...and for the love of God, at least be fair.

Big bad America...can't win for losing. Either we're too involved with other countries' business, or not involved enough.

Yes, it's easy to make a few quips at America's expense, but when you do so just from reiterating stereotypes, who looks like the idiot?

[JAYKE 0]

Patriotism is nice for 4th July, but on a practical basis - its really irrelevant to day to day life.

you were doing pretty good until you said that.

How so? Waving the flag is all very nice, but it doesn't grant you decent healthcare, representative politicians, or affordable housing does it?

Much of it seems to depend on who is making the criticisms, immigrants are essentially second class citizens (sorry residents). In that sense if we were being honest with ourselves we would actually address the issues raised, rather than (what invariably happens) which is to attack the messenger, thereby putting the problem out of sight, and out of mind.

"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson

"Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels." - Leo Tolstoy

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Patriotism is nice for 4th July, but on a practical basis - its really irrelevant to day to day life.

you were doing pretty good until you said that.

How so? Waving the flag is all very nice, but it doesn't grant you decent healthcare, representative politicians, or affordable housing does it?

Much of it seems to depend on who is making the criticisms, immigrants are essentially second class citizens (sorry residents). In that sense if we were being honest with ourselves we would actually address the issues raised, rather than (what invariably happens) which is to attack the messenger, thereby putting the problem out of sight, and out of mind.

"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson

"Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels." - Leo Tolstoy

Or "The virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde

[Ban Hammer 12,896]

"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." Adlai Stevenson

"Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels." - Leo Tolstoy

yeah, he was locked up for a while, figures he'd not like it.

[godsavethequeen 0]

but Americans in general are not told the truth.

I was there last for 3 weeks. I saw no news reports about Iraqi, I got back to England and the first news broadcast I saw was; explosion in Iraq, soldiers killed civilians killed. It happens every day. The truth is out there yes, but does every American go searching the web for truth. No!! They watch the news broadcasts and believe they are told the truth. they are told insubstantial snippets so as not to spoil the good feelings of the nation.

America help other countries... yes true but if you look at the stats the percentage help is mimimal. Sorry but you'll have to find the evidence ones self... the Truth really is out there.

[Euro 3]

but Americans in general are not told the truth.

I was there last for 3 weeks. I saw no news reports about Iraqi, I got back to England and the first news broadcast I saw was; explosion in Iraq, soldiers killed civilians killed. It happens every day. The truth is out there yes, but does every American go searching the web for truth. No!! They watch the news broadcasts and believe they are told the truth. they are told insubstantial snippets so as not to spoil the good feelings of the nation.

America help other countries... yes true but if you look at the stats the percentage help is mimimal. Sorry but you'll have to find the evidence ones self... the Truth really is out there.

Agent Mulder, that you

I hear what your saying, & you have held your own in this debade, & i congratulate you for it, you have managed to keep your humour while all around lose thier rag