US citizens being held as illegal immigrants

[justashooter 430]

It all depends on whether you value individual freedoms or just freedoms for certain racial groups. If you want to allow for some people to be treated differently because of the way they look well, have at it, but that is not the freedom that most of your compatriots, and mine fought for during WW2. Perhaps a refresher course on what rights are might be a good thing.

laws that interfere with civil rights are held to different levels of scrutiny in terms of their constitutional legitamacy. so are law enforcement policies, under the direction of the attourney general, and states attourneys. if a law or policy is severely restrictive of an individual civil right (in this case, 4th amendment in regard to being secure in the person, specifically the identity of such, without reasonable articulable suspicion), it must pass the "strict scrutiny" test to be legitimately applied. strict scrutiny tests require that a law or policy address a specific problem with minimal negative impact on those not targeted in the process. having to show someone an ID card seems to be minimal negative impact to me.

as it stands now, you can walk along the sidewalk in the middle of the day, and if a policeman asks you for ID, you do not have to provide it to him, or even tell him your name. if you just happened to talk to a drug dealer or prostitute on said sidewalk, you must identify yourself, as the po-po has RAS. it's not such a stretch to say that if you are at a la raza rally and are ethnically hispanic, that RAS is in place.

[Peikko 1,575]

once this system is in place, state sanctioned neighborhood sweeps (in public, you're subject), search warrants for houses known to harbour, and chain link fencing for la raza protests. 20 days in a detention camp to get papers you don't have handy, or it's out the door you go.

Nazi germany would be proud of you

I hate it when people refer to Nazi Germany when the subject revolves around whatever it is they dislike. Calling the U.S. and its current policies the same or even remotely related to Nazi Germany is not only ludicrous, but severely insulting towards those who lived through that time period. There's a huge difference between looking to evict illegal aliens versus loading "undesirables" into freight cars to get burned in ovens or gassed.

If some people can't figure this out, then maybe they need to crack open a history book. Try actually learning something.

Compare the circumstance? No, but compare the attitude? Yes, absolutely. If people do not understand why it is unacceptable to police based on racial stereotyping, then they do not understand the freedoms that the US aims to protect.

[justashooter 430]

once this system is in place, state sanctioned neighborhood sweeps (in public, you're subject), search warrants for houses known to harbour, and chain link fencing for la raza protests. 20 days in a detention camp to get papers you don't have handy, or it's out the door you go.

Nazi germany would be proud of you

I hate it when people refer to Nazi Germany when the subject revolves around whatever it is they dislike. Calling the U.S. and its current policies the same or even remotely related to Nazi Germany is not only ludicrous, but severely insulting towards those who lived through that time period. There's a huge difference between looking to evict illegal aliens versus loading "undesirables" into freight cars to get burned in ovens or gassed.

If some people can't figure this out, then maybe they need to crack open a history book. Try actually learning something.

Compare the circumstance? No, but compare the attitude? Yes, absolutely. If people do not understand why it is unacceptable to police based on racial stereotyping, then they do not understand the freedoms that the US aims to protect.

somebody needs to learn the difference between racial stereotyping and RAS and PC.

[DeadPoolX 9]

once this system is in place, state sanctioned neighborhood sweeps (in public, you're subject), search warrants for houses known to harbour, and chain link fencing for la raza protests. 20 days in a detention camp to get papers you don't have handy, or it's out the door you go.

Nazi germany would be proud of you

I hate it when people refer to Nazi Germany when the subject revolves around whatever it is they dislike. Calling the U.S. and its current policies the same or even remotely related to Nazi Germany is not only ludicrous, but severely insulting towards those who lived through that time period. There's a huge difference between looking to evict illegal aliens versus loading "undesirables" into freight cars to get burned in ovens or gassed.

If some people can't figure this out, then maybe they need to crack open a history book. Try actually learning something.

Compare the circumstance? No, but compare the attitude? Yes, absolutely. If people do not understand why it is unacceptable to police based on racial stereotyping, then they do not understand the freedoms that the US aims to protect.

The attitude? Hardly.

Nazi Germany's attitude was one of revenge for what occurred after WWI. The attitude was that other countries should be taken over, commit genocide against those considered undesirable and inflict mass amount of terror across the world. The Nazis had children spying on their parents and reporting anyone who wasn't a "good German."

Now tell me... does any of that sound like the U.S. today? We don't want to take over countries or commit genocide. We don't want children spying on their parents or neighbors reporting behavior that's "suspicious." If you think it does, I pity you and anyone else who knows so little about history and the circumstances involved.

The most the U.S. wants is to actually secure itself to the point where illegals don't come into the country. Considering the nature of this board, I'd think that most here would be in favor of promoting legal immigration.

[Peikko 1,575]

The basic principal is precisely the same, do you uphold everyone's right equally, or do you charge different standards on people simply because they appear to belong to a group that statistically is more likely to X,Y or Z?

You can change this into specifics to excuse behaviour all you like, but it's the same principal at work, regardless of the particular circumstance.

[DeadPoolX 9]

The basic principal is precisely the same, do you uphold everyone's right equally, or do you charge different standards on people simply because they appear to belong to a group that statistically is more likely to X,Y or Z?

You can change this into specifics to excuse behaviour all you like, but it's the same principal at work, regardless of the particular circumstance.

Your argument is flawed in that illegals do not have the same rights as do citizens. The only rights illegals have include not killing, beating or raping them. They do not enjoy the same protections, privileges and rights as do a citizen. To suggest that illegals are on the same footing as citizens is not only ludicrous, but outright moronic.

But let's assume your ridiculous argument actually has an inkling of merit. If illegals have all the same rights as citizens, why immigrate legally? The point of immigrating legally is so you can have the same rights as anyone else living there. It's all very simple.

If someone doesn't need to legally immigrate in order gain all the rights and privileges of a citizen, then anyone from any country could move to the United States at any time and live here. Given the objective of this board, we all know that's not true.

So where's the argument? There is none. Illegals simply do not have the same rights as citizens and because of that, there's absolutely no need to "uphold" anything. They haven't earned the rights of an American citizen yet. Once they go through the legal immigration process, then -- and only then -- do they have a case in which they could demand and appropriately receive their rights.

[jundp 191]

No one should be able to be abused by authorities because they can't speak the language. There are many people who are mentally ill who can't speak any language fluently, are we to hose them down too?

Now that's just silly, MC, and you know it. I'm merely saying that if one has the ability to speak and use language, then perhaps it behooves that person to at least make an effort to be conversational in the main language of his or her adopted country.

I hate it when people refer to Nazi Germany when the subject revolves around whatever it is they dislike. Calling the U.S. and its current policies the same or even remotely related to Nazi Germany is not only ludicrous, but severely insulting towards those who lived through that time period. There's a huge difference between looking to evict illegal aliens versus loading "undesirables" into freight cars to get burned in ovens or gassed.

If some people can't figure this out, then maybe they need to crack open a history book. Try actually learning something.

I'm in no way advocating anything done in Nazi Germany but I would like to point out that people weren't burned alive in ovens, that those who protested the government (but who were not Jews) were also targeted, that it was not simply about revenge, and that good people were manipulated in a manner in which they ended up being party to some horrific and inhumane aspects of life.

There's much MUCH more to what happened to the Germans and those oppressed by Hitler and his regime than just gassing and ovens and it wasn't limited to religious persecution. Some of the infringements on our freedoms since 9/11 do bear a striking resemblance to the early days of propaganda by Hitler and the National Socialists in Germany, beginning in the mid-1920s. So it is not completely without merit to make a comparison.

[DeadPoolX 9]

I hate it when people refer to Nazi Germany when the subject revolves around whatever it is they dislike. Calling the U.S. and its current policies the same or even remotely related to Nazi Germany is not only ludicrous, but severely insulting towards those who lived through that time period. There's a huge difference between looking to evict illegal aliens versus loading "undesirables" into freight cars to get burned in ovens or gassed.

If some people can't figure this out, then maybe they need to crack open a history book. Try actually learning something.

I'm in no way advocating anything done in Nazi Germany but I would like to point out that people weren't burned alive in ovens, that those who protested the government (but who were not Jews) were also targeted, that it was not simply about revenge, and that good people were manipulated in a manner in which they ended up being party to some horrific and inhumane aspects of life.

There's much MUCH more to what happened to the Germans and those oppressed by Hitler and his regime than just gassing and ovens and it wasn't limited to religious persecution. Some of the infringements on our freedoms since 9/11 do bear a striking resemblance to the early days of propaganda by Hitler and the National Socialists in Germany, beginning in the mid-1920s. So it is not completely without merit to make a comparison.

Given that news channels, news papers, blogs and website such as this one are allowed free speech and to openly criticize the U.S. government and leaders, I have trouble seeing the connection.

[jundp 191]

In the early days of the National Socialist propaganda there was a very slow, but thorough infiltration of racial profiling - and other profiling -- (I'm not sure what to call it, but regarding Communists, gays, lesbians, Jehovas Witnesses, etc). There was still free speech at that time too. I don't think our country is headed down the same path taken in 1930 Germany, but I can also see how someone would make a comparison to that time.

The National Socialists didn't one day say "hey...let's kill 11 million people, okay?" and received cooperation. It happened slowly over time. But some of the beliefs we have in the USA about Muslims, Arabs, etc. are not that far off from what was used to promote the idea of filth infiltrating the German empire. There is propaganda out there now in the US, whether you choose to believe it or not.

I realize this doesn't necessarily apply to illegal immigration, but it just bothers me when people are so uninformed about that time in history.

[mawilson 2,133]

I think that if you can speak english well enough to become a usc then you should be able to explain the situation, make a phone call and get you proof of status within a matter of hours. You should also be able to read any documents in english before you sign anything.

I'm with justashooter on this one, its a tiny percentage and mistakes happen. How can you not be able to prove your citizenship!

Did you even read the article? The person was 1) born in the US, 2) mentally ill, 3) unable to read or write.

Edited April 13, 2009 by mawilson

[pedroh 21]

as long as the mistakes only happen with Latinos -since they have the highest % of illegals- that is ok with everybody I guess... MC we wont' be able to change that, ever...

[DeadPoolX 9]

In the early days of the National Socialist propaganda there was a very slow, but thorough infiltration of racial profiling - and other profiling -- (I'm not sure what to call it, but regarding Communists, gays, lesbians, Jehovas Witnesses, etc). There was still free speech at that time too. I don't think our country is headed down the same path taken in 1930 Germany, but I can also see how someone would make a comparison to that time.

The National Socialists didn't one day say "hey...let's kill 11 million people, okay?" and received cooperation. It happened slowly over time. But some of the beliefs we have in the USA about Muslims, Arabs, etc. are not that far off from what was used to promote the idea of filth infiltrating the German empire. There is propaganda out there now in the US, whether you choose to believe it or not.

I realize this doesn't necessarily apply to illegal immigration, but it just bothers me when people are so uninformed about that time in history.

I know there's propaganda in the United States. There's propaganda everywhere, so it's no surprise it's here either.

Perhaps the most important difference between the U.S. and Nazi Germany is that the terrorists who've attacked and threatened the U.S. have been from the Middle East. Jews never attacked Germany; in fact, the Jews were the ones attacked for years, long before Hitler ever arrived on the scene.

So whether or not racial profiling exists, the point is that the U.S. has some merit in being wary of certain individuals. Nazi Germany used Jews for purely propaganda pieces in order to place blame on convenient scapegoats.

[pedroh 21]

even vj'ers think it's not that bad..

no surprise to me

[pedroh 21]

It all depends on whether you value individual freedoms or just freedoms for certain racial groups. If you want to allow for some people to be treated differently because of the way they look well, have at it, but that is not the freedom that most of your compatriots, and mine fought for during WW2. Perhaps a refresher course on what rights are might be a good thing.

laws that interfere with civil rights are held to different levels of scrutiny in terms of their constitutional legitamacy. so are law enforcement policies, under the direction of the attourney general, and states attourneys. if a law or policy is severely restrictive of an individual civil right (in this case, 4th amendment in regard to being secure in the person, specifically the identity of such, without reasonable articulable suspicion), it must pass the "strict scrutiny" test to be legitimately applied. strict scrutiny tests require that a law or policy address a specific problem with minimal negative impact on those not targeted in the process. having to show someone an ID card seems to be minimal negative impact to me.

as it stands now, you can walk along the sidewalk in the middle of the day, and if a policeman asks you for ID, you do not have to provide it to him, or even tell him your name. if you just happened to talk to a drug dealer or prostitute on said sidewalk, you must identify yourself, as the po-po has RAS. it's not such a stretch to say that if you are at a la raza rally and are ethnically hispanic, that RAS is in place.

if I get pulled over by a cop, because of an infraction, of course I'll show ID.. but, if I'm walking on the street and a cop randomly asks me for ID for no reason, I don't think I even have to be forced to answer back in english.. so the language argument is not valid.. there's nothing that says that I have to answer back in english.. so, they can bring a translator if they want..

what ICE did was very wrong.. deporting just because the person couldn't speak english

Edited April 13, 2009 by pedroh

[Peikko 1,575]

In the early days of the National Socialist propaganda there was a very slow, but thorough infiltration of racial profiling - and other profiling -- (I'm not sure what to call it, but regarding Communists, gays, lesbians, Jehovas Witnesses, etc). There was still free speech at that time too. I don't think our country is headed down the same path taken in 1930 Germany, but I can also see how someone would make a comparison to that time.

The National Socialists didn't one day say "hey...let's kill 11 million people, okay?" and received cooperation. It happened slowly over time. But some of the beliefs we have in the USA about Muslims, Arabs, etc. are not that far off from what was used to promote the idea of filth infiltrating the German empire. There is propaganda out there now in the US, whether you choose to believe it or not.

I realize this doesn't necessarily apply to illegal immigration, but it just bothers me when people are so uninformed about that time in history.

I know there's propaganda in the United States. There's propaganda everywhere, so it's no surprise it's here either.

Perhaps the most important difference between the U.S. and Nazi Germany is that the terrorists who've attacked and threatened the U.S. have been from the Middle East. Jews never attacked Germany; in fact, the Jews were the ones attacked for years, long before Hitler ever arrived on the scene.

So whether or not racial profiling exists, the point is that the U.S. has some merit in being wary of certain individuals. Nazi Germany used Jews for purely propaganda pieces in order to place blame on convenient scapegoats.

Poppycock. It really doesn't matter whether there is a real or imaginary threat, there is no justification for profiling people based on their ethnicity or religious affiliation or any other common visual identifier that can be simplistically used to identify a group that in reality is made up of disparate individuals.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Madame Cleo