Zarqawi Killed In Air Raid

[Ban Hammer 14,274]

i also think public flogging should be reinstated.

that should give fishdude a heart attack

You voyeur you.

call 911 for fishdude bring oxygen and the shock paddles

[ual777 0]

WW1 led directly into WW2. The origins of WW2 lay in the Treaty of Versailles, which bankrupted Germany with reparation costs as the allies carved it up between themselves.

Nazism was caused as a direct result of the resentment felt by germans by being relegated to the status of second class citizens in Europe.

Correct, but this does not pertain to my comment. Poland was taken from Germany and many Germans were still living there. However, you did not see German suicide bombings in Poland over it.

No we didn't, what happened there was worse because Germany was an industrialised country with a formidable economic infrastructure. Before the Nazi party came to the fore, Germany had a written constitution superior (in many ways) to that of the United states. It took only 12 short years to tear it up and put the country on a course that led to secular extremism, anti-semitism, genocide and a world war.

There's no need to resort to suicide bombing if you have an economic and manufacturing base tied to a military that can challenge your enemies directly. Most middle eastern countries simply don't, but neither I might add do countries like Afghanistan, Yemen etc have particularly good educational systems. Where-ever you have an inadequate education system you invariably find that people turn to religion to fill the gap. That's not to justify it of course, but it is a different kettle of fish entirely.

You know what Fishdude? You are OK with me. Our opinions differ but you at least know what you are talking about, so I MUST discuss.

I agree on your lack of education tying to religion statement.

However, I will digress into Germany a little. Germany was allowed to grow militarily because of appeasement. When he broke the law stating what he could and couldnt mantain militarily, the rest of Europe and the U.S. let him do it. This is the same with the Rhineland, Sudetenland, and Austria. Poland was the straw that broke the camel's back, but by then it was too late. IF Britain, France & Co. had stopped Hitler when they had a chance, he never would have been able to build the momentum.

I related this to radical islam earlier. It must be stopped now, before it gains momentum, because if it does, and it becomes increasingly mainstream for whatever reason, the toll on human life will be much worse.

I know the US is not as clean as a preacher's bedsheets, nor is the war in Iraq all about the freedom of the Iraqi people. However, I am looking for what good can be done in this situation, and the way I see it, fighting terror is a good cause.

One of the things that makes this whole issue SO controversial is that it is SO complex. You cannot just make one blanket statement or automatically make an asumption.

I do not like extremists of ANY religon. However, you cannot deny the fact that islamic radicals are just not denounced by their peers as extremists of other faiths are. To me that is very telling of their opinion.

Once again, i applaud your knowledge.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The much-cited "Berg beheading" video is a fraud.

please cite the sources for that statement

Let me ask you.

Have you seen the video ?

Really though... have you seen this video ?

It clearly does not depict the slaughter of a living person.

[yabasta 0]

Your argument has one HUGE flaw, and some little ones. Your formula for 500 replacements is based that the original 100's brothers and friends feel the same way. These people are fighting for their religion and twisted ideology and they are not afraid to die.

My formula was not meant to be scientific but more a bit of food for thought. The number could be more or less of course. The fact is however that a lot of these murdered "terrorists" are not "terrorists" at all but just portrayed by media that way. If you kill an arab man and say he was a terrorist it is easy to convince people who do not know him. If you kill a 2 year old it is a little harder to sell that he was a jihad toddler. We are of course never given proof of crimes as it is "war" and hence the rules do not apply.

These people are fighting for religion? Who says? Religion is not the only reason for people to be resisting occupation. I doubt it is even the main reason.

I don't consider myself right wing, and if you had read this thread as you say, you would have noted in my first post that I don't like Bush, and I don't think that we should have attacked Iraq. HOWEVER, since we are there, we must win.

You may not consider yourself right wing. I am honestly not one to label. If you think i was talking about you though then you were obviously seeing yourself in what i said and then your views were obviously right wing to me.

I did read this whole thread(maybe skimmed a few posts here and there). I recall what people say but i can`t always recall who says what. I respond to what you say and i do not respond to who or what you say you are. I don`t care if you support Bush or Kerry or Nadar or Michael Moore`s ficus tree. I will respond to your viewpoints not your affiliations alone. I don`t understand your views on Iraq. sorry i just don`t. If you don`t think we should be there then surely we can not win. How do you see a victory for either side? If America withdraws it means they have what they wanted. If America is crushed it means there is simply a new sheriff and i am sure nobody expects America to lose in that respect. Invading Iraq involves the deaths of both innocent civilians and the innocence of the troops sent to invade. Invading and then continuing to make the region unstable is not going to do any good for anybody so how will you win by staying?

I do not want to destroy the middle east or the world as you say, the opposite is the fact, and I want the middle east to prosper. However, that means JOINING THE REST OF THE WORLD IN THE 21ST CENTURY! It also means jailing anyone who preaches hate in your country.

So you wish to impose your ideas on others? How will they join the rest of the world when the rest of the world is dropping bombs on them? If i punched you and said join my gang would you really want to join? I know if you punched me i would punch you right back. If i had no arms i would kick you. See what i am saying?

The draconian decapitations and murder of civilians is TOTALLY intolerable in this day and age. Do you honestly think that you would be spared because you voted for Kerry in 2004? HA!

I don`t vote. I am also not American.

Tell me why 9/11 happened Yabasta? Did we buy too much oil from the middle east thus allowing them to buy too many cars? Or is it because they are pissed we invented the internet before they did?

OR, is it because we help save Israel from annihilation and they can't stand it because Israel is a Jewish nation? Top that off with bikinis, women having sun tans, and the adult film industry and guess what: WE ARE THE GREAT SATAN!

Stop decieving yourself and look at why these things happen.

My views on 9/11 are not relevant to this really. I don`t think it was Al Qaeda at least not as we know al qaeda. If the official story is correct i don`t think that Al Qaeda and the insurgency is the same thing though. The beheading videos are designed to help demonise the Iraq people who are simpyl standing up for themselves. Also there is evidence to suggest that secret service men are operating in Iraq as insurgents. The issue is much more complex than people seem to think. It certainly seems that way anyway. Acting like satan is naturally going to give you that image. I think however that your average person realises the difference between American and American soldier on duty. If you just visit a country dressed in army gear you might be considered a damn tourist but if you are there on business you will probably been seen negatively. Best way to fight such an image is to act better maybe.

I don`t deceive myself. I am not the pro war anti invasion one.

They need to adopt your ideals and realize the ignorance of THEIR actions and the reprocussions. Zarqawi did.

Well surely they were following your lead? and how do you claim to speak for Zaqawi?

Edited June 18, 2006 by yabasta

[ual777 0]

The much-cited "Berg beheading" video is a fraud.

please cite the sources for that statement

Let me ask you.

Have you seen the video ?

Really though... have you seen this video ?

It clearly does not depict the slaughter of a living person.

Um....yes I have and yes it does. The guy is dead. Why would they 'fake' a beheading video anyway? Oh, and the other 2 guys? Johnson and Armstrong? I suppose theirs are fake too right?

[Ban Hammer 14,274]

The much-cited "Berg beheading" video is a fraud.

please cite the sources for that statement

Let me ask you.

Have you seen the video ?

Really though... have you seen this video ?

It clearly does not depict the slaughter of a living person.

for the 3rd time, please cite your sources.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

and the way I see it, fighting terror is a good cause.

My question is simply - is that really what we are doing? I'm not so sure.

However, you cannot deny the fact that islamic radicals are just not denounced by their peers as extremists of other faiths are. To me that is very telling of their opinion.

Sure a lot of the condemnations come from muslims living in Europe and American. Quite simply there's a different world view in the middle east. As I said before, 2nd and 3rd world countries without a particularly good education system invariably turn to religion to fill the gap. At the end of the day, they are suspicious of our motivations (based on our past actions towards them over several centuries, and to be honest I really can't say I blame them.

The much-cited "Berg beheading" video is a fraud.

please cite the sources for that statement

Let me ask you.

Have you seen the video ?

Really though... have you seen this video ?

It clearly does not depict the slaughter of a living person.

for the 3rd time, please cite your sources.

It's not really important.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The much-cited "Berg beheading" video is a fraud.

please cite the sources for that statement

Let me ask you.

Have you seen the video ?

Really though... have you seen this video ?

It clearly does not depict the slaughter of a living person.

Um....yes I have and yes it does. The guy is dead. Why would they 'fake' a beheading video anyway? Oh, and the other 2 guys? Johnson and Armstrong? I suppose theirs are fake too right?

Actually I am speaking specifically of the Berg video here.

It does not show the slaughter of a living person.

I apologize to the squeamish for having to be so graphic, but cutting the throat of a live person or animal (in other words, the severing of the carotid artery) results in a LOT of blood spewing out, which will spatter over everything within several feet.

Let me ask you.... have you seen the video ?

[ual777 0]

Your argument has one HUGE flaw, and some little ones. Your formula for 500 replacements is based that the original 100's brothers and friends feel the same way. These people are fighting for their religion and twisted ideology and they are not afraid to die.

My formula was not meant to be scientific but more a bit of food for thought. The number could be more or less of course. The fact is however that a lot of these murdered "terrorists" are not "terrorists" at all but just portrayed by media that way. If you kill an arab man and say he was a terrorist it is easy to convince people who do not know him. If you kill a 2 year old it is a little harder to sell that he was a jihad toddler. We are of course never given proof of crimes as it is "war" and hence the rules do not apply.

These people are fighting for religion? Who says? Religion is not the only reason for people to be resisting occupation. I doubt it is even the main reason.

I don't consider myself right wing, and if you had read this thread as you say, you would have noted in my first post that I don't like Bush, and I don't think that we should have attacked Iraq. HOWEVER, since we are there, we must win.

You may not consider yourself right wing. I am honestly not one to label. If you think i was talking about you though then you were obviously seeing yourself in what i said and then your views were obviously right wing to me.

I did read this whole thread(maybe skimmed a few posts here and there). I recall what people say but i can`t always recall who says what. I respond to what you say and i do not respond to who or what you say you are. I don`t care if you support Bush or Kerry or Nadar or Michael Moore`s ficus tree. I will respond to your viewpoints not your affiliations alone. I don`t understand your views on Iraq. sorry i just don`t. If you don`t think we should be there then surely we can not win. How do you see a victory for either side? If America withdraws it means they have what they wanted. If America is crushed it means there is simply a new sheriff and i am sure nobody expects America to lose in that respect. Invading Iraq involves the deaths of both innocent civilians and the innocence of the troops sent to invade. Invading and then continuing to make the region unstable is not going to do any good for anybody so how will you win by staying?

I do not want to destroy the middle east or the world as you say, the opposite is the fact, and I want the middle east to prosper. However, that means JOINING THE REST OF THE WORLD IN THE 21ST CENTURY! It also means jailing anyone who preaches hate in your country.

So you wish to impose your ideas on others? How will they join the rest of the world when the rest of the world is dropping bombs on them? If i punched you and said join my gang would you really want to join? I know if you punched me i would punch you right back. If i had no arms i would kick you. See what i am saying?

The draconian decapitations and murder of civilians is TOTALLY intolerable in this day and age. Do you honestly think that you would be spared because you voted for Kerry in 2004? HA!

I don`t vote. I am also not American.

Tell me why 9/11 happened Yabasta? Did we buy too much oil from the middle east thus allowing them to buy too many cars? Or is it because they are pissed we invented the internet before they did?

OR, is it because we help save Israel from annihilation and they can't stand it because Israel is a Jewish nation? Top that off with bikinis, women having sun tans, and the adult film industry and guess what: WE ARE THE GREAT SATAN!

Stop decieving yourself and look at why these things happen.

My views on 9/11 are not relevant to this really. I don`t think it was Al Qaeda at least not as we know al qaeda. If the official story is correct i don`t think that Al Qaeda and the insurgency is the same thing though. The beheading videos are designed to help demonise the Iraq people who are simpyl standing up for themselves. Also there is evidence to suggest that secret service men are operating in Iraq as insurgents. The issue is much more complex than people seem to think. It certainly seems that way anyway. Acting like satan is naturally going to give you that image. I think however that your average person realises the difference between American and American soldier on duty. If you just visit a country dressed in army gear you might be considered a damn tourist but if you are there on business you will probably been seen negatively. Best way to fight such an image is to act better maybe.

I don`t deceive myself. I am not the pro war anti invasion one.

They need to adopt your ideals and realize the ignorance of THEIR actions and the reprocussions. Zarqawi did.

Well surely they were following your lead? and how do you claim to speak for Zaqawi?

First off, the secret service men acting as insurgents is the most rediculous thing I have EVER heard, and I find it insulting. A group of U.S. military men would NEVER murder other American soldiers. How do I know? Because I am a former Marine, my uncle is a retired army officer, my parents are retired air force officers, my grandfathers were in the navy, and about 80% of my friends are in the military.

Military servicemen do not kill eachother.

Secondly, if its not for religion, why are they screaming "God is great" while beheading their victims? Oh, and why is the US called 'The Great Satan?'

Thirdly, I believe we were punched in the nose when 19 terrorists killed thousands of my countrymen.

You are making a bunch of statements with NO base, NO evidence, and that are far from logical.

Perhaps the reason you do not understand my views is because you have never been in the military. I was against the invasion, but hey, soldiers dont start wars, politicians do. It was my job as a Marine to WIN. I know military tactics, I know military strategy, and I know how to defeat the enemy.

However, thanks for the visit to the twilight zone. I'm so at awe by your far reaching, baseless statements that I dont know what to say, because I know you wont get it.

[Ban Hammer 14,274]

Actually I am speaking specifically of the Berg video here.

It does not show the slaughter of a living person.

I apologize to the squeamish for having to be so graphic, but cutting the throat of a live person or animal (in other words, the severing of the carotid artery) results in a LOT of blood spewing out, which will spatter over everything within several feet.

Let me ask you.... have you seen the video ?

as am i. i'm referring specifically to the berg video. are you a forensic scientist? are you a blood spatter expert? where is the citation of your proof i've asked 3 times for already?

[ual777 0]

The much-cited "Berg beheading" video is a fraud.

please cite the sources for that statement

Let me ask you.

Have you seen the video ?

Really though... have you seen this video ?

It clearly does not depict the slaughter of a living person.

Um....yes I have and yes it does. The guy is dead. Why would they 'fake' a beheading video anyway? Oh, and the other 2 guys? Johnson and Armstrong? I suppose theirs are fake too right?

Actually I am speaking specifically of the Berg video here.

It does not show the slaughter of a living person.

I apologize to the squeamish for having to be so graphic, but cutting the throat of a live person or animal (in other words, the severing of the carotid artery) results in a LOT of blood spewing out, which will spatter over everything within several feet.

Let me ask you.... have you seen the video ?

Uh yes I have seen the video. The blood depends on how you cut it as well. Just out of curiousity where is Mr. Berg if the video is fake, and as I asked before, what about the other ones? Are they fakes too? And if so, WHY?

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Actually I am speaking specifically of the Berg video here.

It does not show the slaughter of a living person.

I apologize to the squeamish for having to be so graphic, but cutting the throat of a live person or animal (in other words, the severing of the carotid artery) results in a LOT of blood spewing out, which will spatter over everything within several feet.

Let me ask you.... have you seen the video ?

as am i. i'm referring specifically to the berg video. are you a forensic scientist? are you a blood spatter expert? where is the citation of your proof i've asked 3 times for already?

LOL. No. Are you ?

However, throats of living mammals that are cut BLEED. The one in the video doesn't. At all.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Actually I am speaking specifically of the Berg video here.

It does not show the slaughter of a living person.

I apologize to the squeamish for having to be so graphic, but cutting the throat of a live person or animal (in other words, the severing of the carotid artery) results in a LOT of blood spewing out, which will spatter over everything within several feet.

Let me ask you.... have you seen the video ?

as am i. i'm referring specifically to the berg video. are you a forensic scientist? are you a blood spatter expert? where is the citation of your proof i've asked 3 times for already?

LOL. No. Are you ?

However, throats of living mammals that are cut BLEED. The one in the video doesn't. At all.

way way What difference does it make?

[Ban Hammer 14,274]

Actually I am speaking specifically of the Berg video here.

It does not show the slaughter of a living person.

I apologize to the squeamish for having to be so graphic, but cutting the throat of a live person or animal (in other words, the severing of the carotid artery) results in a LOT of blood spewing out, which will spatter over everything within several feet.

Let me ask you.... have you seen the video ?

as am i. i'm referring specifically to the berg video. are you a forensic scientist? are you a blood spatter expert? where is the citation of your proof i've asked 3 times for already?

LOL. No. Are you ?

However, throats of living mammals that are cut BLEED. The one in the video doesn't. At all.

nope, i'm not either. but i'm not trying to sound like an expert, as you are. thank you for the basic biology lesson, but i'm just asking for your proof of such being fake, as you indicate, or is your statement based on your own perception?

[tmma 467]

Oh yippee the Zarqawi thread is back