How do you feel about Legalization of Illegals in US?

[SpiritAlight 1]

Dear Smoke,

Please read my post #39...I would love your response, if you feel like it.

We were posting at the same time and you may have missed it.

[Peikko 1,575]

So, a fence is not required then? Oh good, that's a relief.

You do know that penalizing people requires discovery and discovery requires money? Just to be sure I have this right.

yes..have you looked at whats happening in OK & AZ? fines & asset seizure is funding the discovery

Oh, well that's great then, problem solved, a self funding programme to eliminate illegal immigration so we don't need to worry about the goverment implementing any more unnecessary regulations.

[HAL 9000 96]

So, a fence is not required then? Oh good, that's a relief.

You do know that penalizing people requires discovery and discovery requires money? Just to be sure I have this right.

yes..have you looked at whats happening in OK & AZ? fines & asset seizure is funding the discovery

Discovery comes during due process. Due process states that one is innocent until proven guilty and hence, again, causation defines thusly that public funds pay for the process. What about when the cases brought to judgment are deemed frivolous? Who's going to pay for that?

[SpiritAlight 1]

...eat our pie.

Thing thing is this:

ABUNDANCE consciousness.

We can bake more pies.

There is not only one pie.

Live in poverty consciousness and we will all starve.

Know what I mean, jelly-bean?

[Peikko 1,575]

So, a fence is not required then? Oh good, that's a relief.

Of course a fence is required. It is a border not a national park for everyone to enter at their leisure.

The ultimate enforcement would come from penalizing employers as well as preventing any government services from being handed out to them. I just saw a story on CNN, the other day, where Mexican mothers are coming into the US just before going into labor to ensure their kids become American citizenship. The hospitals must also deliver the baby basically for free.

Why would anyone be coming here illegally if the problem has been solved already? I don't see why one would spend lots of cash on a fence just to say, "look, we have a fence to mark out our border, isn't that great?"

[SpiritAlight 1]

... Who's going to pay for that?

Exactly.

Your tax dollars at work.

It sucks.

Time for a new idea!

Come on all you smarty-pantses.

Get to work!

THINK

[HAL 9000 96]

...eat our pie.

Thing thing is this:

ABUNDANCE consciousness.

We can bake more pies.

There is not only one pie.

Live in poverty consciousness and we will all starve.

Know what I mean, jelly-bean?

Gotcha cracker-jack

(I like this kind of name calling )

Problem with your logic is that there are people that want and like to get fat on their own pies after eating others' cakes. Or they just don't care...

[Heracles 417]

So, a fence is not required then? Oh good, that's a relief.

You do know that penalizing people requires discovery and discovery requires money? Just to be sure I have this right.

Well some folks are willing to spend more in legal costs penalizing rather than spending a little to prevent the problem. Seems to go around in all sorts of issues... education vs prison, health prevention vs out of control health complications... etc.

Then they complain about low paying jobs requiring little skills that go to undocumented workers willing to work for a living. It seems we let ourselves set the bar rather low for ourselves.

Funny how no one has an issue with the any of other 1st world nations enforcing their strict illegal immigration laws. Countries which have a much higher living standard than the US and a much tougher stance on illegal immigration. Yet when it comes to the United States it is their fault for not helping prevent the problem, aka funneling money to Mexico. Mexico, one of the richest countries in the world.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Is there really such a thing as an "illegal" human being?

But is it okay for them to prosper at somebody else's loss?

The argument can and does go both ways.

Who benefits at *their* expense to drive them our way?

so keep letting the blue collar Americans take it on the chin?

Again, its a two way street.

So keep letting the pre-illegals take it up the wazoo.

Problem is, um, that there's causation involved and God forbid we actually did something to really prevent the problem from becoming, a problem.

And, no, I do not favor screwing our workers over unless there are lines that I have apparently written in invisible bits and bytes here. Legislate all you want to punish, but fact of the matter is that if you prevent the problem in the first place...

you can stand on your soap box all day it doesn't change the facts. the worlds poor is not the US fault or burden. 1 time....look at the illegal immigration issue from the POV of a blue collar worker. you can't deny its a problem, its hurting everyone & letting it continue is not the answer.

Again... more invisible lines to read here.

We are not discussing the world's poor- at least I'm not. We're discussing the cake we like to have and eat on someone else's plate. THAT is called causation for them to come and eat our pie.

nothing is invisible. you don't care about illegal immigration because it doesn't effect you or your paycheck. crystal clear.

now look at it from a persons POV that isn't a fortunate as we are to have a degree & does manual labor for a living.

[SpiritAlight 1]

...eat our pie.

Thing thing is this:

ABUNDANCE consciousness.

We can bake more pies.

There is not only one pie.

Live in poverty consciousness and we will all starve.

Know what I mean, jelly-bean?

Gotcha cracker-jack

(I like this kind of name calling )

Problem with your logic is that there are people that want and like to get fat on their own pies after eating others' cakes. Or they just don't care...

Yes.

Absolutely.

I totally agree.

Human nature...of those that have not seen the light yet.

The light is this:

(and we need to be the exemplary example)

keep sharing and giving and show that there is plenty for all, and all need to row this boat together to make it work.

(I hope I am expressing myself right. We should all get together face-to-face for a cup-a-joe and see what transpires.)

[Heracles 417]

Discovery comes during due process. Due process states that one is innocent until proven guilty and hence, again, causation defines thusly that public funds pay for the process. What about when the cases brought to judgment are deemed frivolous? Who's going to pay for that?

You are either here legally or you are not. There is nothing frivolous about it.

[HAL 9000 96]

So, a fence is not required then? Oh good, that's a relief.

You do know that penalizing people requires discovery and discovery requires money? Just to be sure I have this right.

Well some folks are willing to spend more in legal costs penalizing rather than spending a little to prevent the problem. Seems to go around in all sorts of issues... education vs prison, health prevention vs out of control health complications... etc.

Then they complain about low paying jobs requiring little skills that go to undocumented workers willing to work for a living. It seems we let ourselves set the bar rather low for ourselves.

Funny how no one has an issue with the any of other 1st world nations enforcing their strict illegal immigration laws. Countries which have a much higher living standard than the US and a much tougher stance on illegal immigration. Yet when it comes to the United States it is their fault for not helping prevent the problem, aka funneling money to Mexico. Mexico, one of the richest countries in the world.

Lets talk the issues then.

We're talking US immigration, not other countries' immigration issues. However, if you want to bring them up, also bring up what they also involve themselves in to prevent what they can.

Again, if funneling money to another country is your idea of what I am thinking of, then you are unfortunately gravely mistaken.

Discovery comes during due process. Due process states that one is innocent until proven guilty and hence, again, causation defines thusly that public funds pay for the process. What about when the cases brought to judgment are deemed frivolous? Who's going to pay for that?

You are either here legally or you are not. There is nothing frivolous about it.

Due process. It costs. There is nothing frivolous about that.

[Heracles 417]

nothing is invisible. you don't care about illegal immigration because it doesn't effect you or your paycheck. crystal clear.

now look at it from a persons POV that isn't a fortunate as we are to have a degree & does manual labor for a living.

They also do not seem to have a problem with people exploiting these illegal immigrants.

[Traviesa 0]

Is there really such a thing as an "illegal" human being?

But is it okay for them to prosper at somebody else's loss?

The argument can and does go both ways.

Who benefits at *their* expense to drive them our way?

so keep letting the blue collar Americans take it on the chin?

Again, its a two way street.

So keep letting the pre-illegals take it up the wazoo.

Problem is, um, that there's causation involved and God forbid we actually did something to really prevent the problem from becoming, a problem.

And, no, I do not favor screwing our workers over unless there are lines that I have apparently written in invisible bits and bytes here. Legislate all you want to punish, but fact of the matter is that if you prevent the problem in the first place...

you can stand on your soap box all day it doesn't change the facts. the worlds poor is not the US fault or burden. 1 time....look at the illegal immigration issue from the POV of a blue collar worker. you can't deny its a problem, its hurting everyone & letting it continue is not the answer.

Again... more invisible lines to read here.

We are not discussing the world's poor- at least I'm not. We're discussing the cake we like to have and eat on someone else's plate. THAT is called causation for them to come and eat our pie.

nothing is invisible. you don't care about illegal immigration because it doesn't effect you or your paycheck. crystal clear.

now look at it from a persons POV that isn't a fortunate as we are to have a degree & does manual labor for a living.

Sorry to butt in but...we all make choices in life. Opportunites are abundant in this country. Outcomes based on an individual's own decisions should not be blamed on anyone but the one who made the decision.

[SpiritAlight 1]

nothing is invisible. you don't care about illegal immigration because it doesn't effect you or your paycheck. crystal clear.

now look at it from a persons POV that isn't a fortunate as we are to have a degree & does manual labor for a living.

I get where you are coming from Smoke...and I am with you.

The thing is, is that unregistered workers make the salaries go down for everyone.

This totally sucks for all, including them.

So, what to do....

well, if we create a program for outside workers, that would help us all.

What do you think?

(of course I have no power to implement this right away...I am awaiting my emperor status to come through)