My wife left me!

[irish44 0]

I think it's hard and even unfair to generalize about Russians because most of us know Russians only from one area of a very big and diverse country or former Soviet countries, and only as men in romantic relationships with a Russian woman. That puts us in a pretty small awareness box. And, however our ladies feel about Russia is going to influence our own viewpoint and obscure our objectivity.

I have known Russians from Moscow, St. Petersburg, Ryazan, and Krasnoyarsk as well as Russians living in Kyrgzistan and Latvia, and I still don't think I really get Russians, their ways, or their culture. And I doubt I ever will. That's OK because my focus is on one woman, and getting her to the USA asap. I can't worry about understanding THE Russia, but only HER Russia...not necessarily the same thing. And i need only understand HER Russia well enough to make for a good marriage and life together. I also see that I need to respect her Russia more than really understand it in order to love her and build a good marriage.

For whatever their reasons, I do hear women complaining about Russia. It may range from the benign "It is Russia" to the more negative energy of "I hate Russia!" But, to counter-balance things, I also hear them speak admiringly of the many positive aspect of Russian women and femininity...and I can attest and confirm those comments to be true!

As to the issue of arrogance versus pride...well that's a really subjective distinction and depends on your connection to a given person. Your girlfriend or wife may have "pride' while her neighbor may be "arrogant." If i were to venture a guess, i think the people might reflect the country they grew up in...and i remember the Soviet Union as arrogant to the extreme. Should i be surprised some of that rubbed off on the general population? But, on a case by case basis, I'd probably find a lot of variance in people's "arrogance level" especially at different ages and socio-economic and educational levels. And maybe between men and women. Whatever a VJ poster may share about his or her experience with Russian "arrogance" or "pride," it's based on a very small sample of the population. So...maybe all that deserves is a "big deal!"

I have been to Russia and former Soviet states many times and I am both charmed and appalled by what i have seen and experienced...yes, a paradox. I could say the same thing about traveling around the USA. We all have Russian wives or girlfriends and it's cool it talk as if we have the inside view of Russia and it's people. But, for me, the truth is the more i hang out in Russia, the less i have clarity about things..but it is still a love-hate relationship with a land that used to be my enemy...just as it was when i first visited Russia in 2004.

I will add that I have never hung out with what my wife calls "New Russia" folks...the people with lots of money and affluence. Now that would be interesting to actually go inside an apartment that's nicer (by a mile!!) than mine! That would really change my view of Russians...and I'd be the one on the lower rung of the ladder.

My point...no Americans on this forum are in a position to act like a "Russian expert" even though it's fun to pretend. Yes?

Very, very well said!

[slim 1,533]

Wow, didn't realize you were that jaded slim.

Being jaded has nothing to do with it. I'm just tired of people hoping and expecting change for things that are "bad" without demanding change to the root causes, even turning a blind eye toward them. And if you ask me, social workers are the worst kind of "feelers" because they're trying to band-aid the problems we have by taking a compassionate (albeit compensated) approach to the problem; comforting those affected without affecting those who caused it to happen in the first place.

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say. Good looks = arrogance, by definition?

Please clarify your point.

I used good looks as simply an example. If you take pride in your good looks (only an example here) the thing that separates it from being simply pride or arrogance is the humility you display along with it. Best looking girl in the room? Cool. You can use that to downplay one of your "negative" qualities ("I'm attractive, but I can't play darts like that girl over there.") or you can simply focus on that while telling everyone to kiss your feet because you are the best looking woman in the room. Russian = arrogance comes from keeping the focus on your positive qualities and failing to acknowledge the negative ones. Simply sprinkle in a dash of humility and viola! you're proud!

There is a difference between arrogance and pride. The later is how I would describe almost every Russian I have ever met. My Alla is proud of her beauty, appearance, form, and talents, but she does not throw it in anyones face.

And that is exactly what distinguishes the two. But, what happens when you say, "that woman over there is gorgeous." (Does anything get thrown in your face then? Or are you smart enough to stay away from that entirely? And if so, why?)

I agree with this. I also think that Russians are more willing to take small inconveniences in stride. I think many Americans would totally fall apart and b**** about it for ages if, for instance, they didn't have hot water for a month. How many times have those of us with russian ladies and guys heard the response "It's Russia."? I bet a thousand.

True. But say something bad about Russia and see what happens. "Yeah it's messed up, but it's our messed up. And anyway, your stuff is more messed up because Russia is best-of-the-best." Americans will b!tch and moan all day, but by the end of the day, we've paid someone to fix it. (Or we're so poor that our opinions don't count.)

I actually welcome "outsider" participation. I am annoyed when someone leaps in, posts a snarky comment and then leaps back out again, but then, you know, welcome to the internets. But if someone wants to come in and participate productively (or non-productively with the caveat that we will be merciless in our replies) I'm very cool with that.

Absolutely agree with this statement. We hardly ever have outsiders that drop by to say anything other than "you guys are all sick men who have to 'buy' mail-order wives."

Thanks for being productive, and welcome back!

I think it's hard and even unfair to generalize about Russians .....

My point...no Americans on this forum are in a position to act like a "Russian expert" even though it's fun to pretend. Yes?

I took out most of this quote simply for brevity purposes. It is a great post. However, I will agree to disagree on grounds that I'm not one of those guys that met a lady on the internet, visited once, and have formed an opinion based on that. While I agree I'm no "expert", I will say, as you said, the history of Russia and the FSU countries based largely on Soviet times has shaped the persona of who Russians are even today.

And for those of you out there pissed off about my "generalization of Russians as arrogant and indifferent" you need to remember that a generalization doesn't mean that every single person is exactly this way. It "generalizes" them into a certain category. If you don't fit in that category good. But can you not make a generalization of some sort? (Any subject?) And once again, if I'm wrong in my generalization please explain to me why. I'm not against apologizing for being wrong, I just want to be convinced. (Sorry mox, social workers and international aid societies don't do it for me.)

[Blues Fairy 0]

I used good looks as simply an example. If you take pride in your good looks (only an example here) the thing that separates it from being simply pride or arrogance is the humility you display along with it. Best looking girl in the room? Cool. You can use that to downplay one of your "negative" qualities ("I'm attractive, but I can't play darts like that girl over there.") or you can simply focus on that while telling everyone to kiss your feet because you are the best looking woman in the room. Russian = arrogance comes from keeping the focus on your positive qualities and failing to acknowledge the negative ones. Simply sprinkle in a dash of humility and viola! you're proud!

Slim, that's demagoguery and a sly way to avoid the point of the original discussion. You have generalized that all Russians are arrogant and indifferent; I begged to differ. One example to the contrary of a generalization should be enough to disprove it, so I used myself as an example. To defend your generalization, you launched a rather lame personal attack having something to do with the way I look and my inevitable arrogance as a result. I still fail to grasp your logic here. Just because one is Russian AND, presumably, the best-looking girl in the room (your words not mine!), she is absolutely obliged to bang her head against the wall and acknowledge her shortcomings, so people feel more comfortable with her beauty? Otherwise she's arrogant?..

[eekee 182]

I agree with this. I also think that Russians are more willing to take small inconveniences in stride. I think many Americans would totally fall apart and b**** about it for ages if, for instance, they didn't have hot water for a month. How many times have those of us with russian ladies and guys heard the response "It's Russia."? I bet a thousand.

True. But say something bad about Russia and see what happens. "Yeah it's messed up, but it's our messed up. And anyway, your stuff is more messed up because Russia is best-of-the-best." Americans will b!tch and moan all day, but by the end of the day, we've paid someone to fix it. (Or we're so poor that our opinions don't count.)

I don't think America is any different in that respect, honestly. I've heard plenty of Russians talk smack about Russia ("ugh! typical russian a**hole!"), but at the end of the day if I have complaints about Russia I know that my American friends would be a better audience for it, and it's the same the other way round. There's a ton of things I don't like about America, but every time my guy says something about how he'd rather learn British English than American English I fly off the handle completely about how superior American English is because we don't waste time with extra "u"s and how he's not moving to the UK so why would he want to learn it etc. etc.

Edited February 27, 2008 by eekee

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Sorry for the "me too", but I would definitely sum up my feelings with what I highlighted. I cannot add more without a ten page discourse.

if you ask me, social workers are the worst kind of "feelers" because they're trying to band-aid the problems we have by taking a compassionate (albeit compensated) approach to the problem; comforting those affected without affecting those who caused it to happen in the first place.

I keep trying to come up with a reply to this, but there's so MUCH I could say that I lack the focus to put it into coherent words. I'll just have to settle by saying that if this is really your position (it occurs to me that my leg is being pulled, but dang dude, you should know by now that pushing my buttons is *way* too easy to be any fun at all!) then no argument from a point of reason is going to change your mind.

On pride and arrogance: I don't understand your argument at all. I tried, but failed. But it does occur to me that an American calling Russians arrogant is like the pot calling the proverbial kettle black, if I believed that Russians came even close to the sheer arrogance that Americans exhibit. In fact, I would *so* watch that debate: "Americans are arrogant, Russians are Proud. Discuss." And my money would be on the pro argument.

[FaSa2008 0]

to be honest fellow VJ 's why dont just leave it how it was!!

this is the second time i read russian forums and its full of drama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and its the same people involved!!!!!!!!! jeez !

there are far many better things to be doing that replying more and more things!

it was entertaining but wasted my time a lil

If it wasted your time only "a lil" then you're reading it wrong. I want you to go back to the first page and re-read everything back to your post. When you're done, please post the amount of time wasted. You may have to re-read the entire thread 3-5 more times before you get it right. Okay...off with you now. Hurry back!

ha ha mox I have to say You are funny, made me laugh on that one!

wasting my time again ciao

[slim 1,533]

Slim, that's demagoguery and a sly way to avoid the point of the original discussion. You have generalized that all Russians are arrogant and indifferent; I begged to differ. One example to the contrary of a generalization should be enough to disprove it, so I used myself as an example. To defend your generalization, you launched a rather lame personal attack having something to do with the way I look and my inevitable arrogance as a result. I still fail to grasp your logic here. Just because one is Russian AND, presumably, the best-looking girl in the room (your words not mine!), she is absolutely obliged to bang her head against the wall and acknowledge her shortcomings, so people feel more comfortable with her beauty? Otherwise she's arrogant?..

First of all, no personal (lame?) attacks, just searching for a way to explain my position. Bad choice. Try this one -

Americans are fat.

Not all Americans are fat, but since most Americans are fat and you have a chance, more often than not, of coming into contact with a fat American, the generalization can be made that Americans are fat. Just because some Americans are not fat it doesn't disprove the generalization.

I generalized that Russians were arrogant and indifferent. Mox presented some examples of non-indifferent Russians (who didn't seem very arrogant either) but that fails to disprove my generalization. Once again, in a generalization, not every single one of someone or something has to fall into the generalization for it to still hold true. That's why it's a generalization and not a fact.

if you ask me, social workers are the worst kind of "feelers" because they're trying to band-aid the problems we have by taking a compassionate (albeit compensated) approach to the problem; comforting those affected without affecting those who caused it to happen in the first place.

I keep trying to come up with a reply to this, but there's so MUCH I could say that I lack the focus to put it into coherent words. I'll just have to settle by saying that if this is really your position (it occurs to me that my leg is being pulled, but dang dude, you should know by now that pushing my buttons is *way* too easy to be any fun at all!) then no argument from a point of reason is going to change your mind.

I'll add fuel to your fire.

A few years ago a buddy of mine and I were having a "debate" about some things. My position was groups like the Make-a-Wish Foundation were a complete waste of money because the kids were going to die anyway. He was appalled that I lacked the compassion to comfort a dying child. I argued that I wasn't lacking in compassion but moreover thought the money could be better served to provide for a child that was going to live a healthy life through adulthood that was in the care of the state. I argued that if the money for the dying kid's wish was spent on proper care for the kid in "the system" than maybe he wouldn't grow up to sell crack. (Extreme example for the sake of the argument.) I supported my position by saying that the people who contribute to the Make-a-Wish foundation and the like are not doing it for the benefit of the child, they're doing it for more selfish reasons; to make themselves feel better. In reality, that money could've been used to make society better by ensuring a child with a low probablity of "making it" in society could be shaped and molded into a good and productive citizen. But instead of folks spending money on combatting real issues that affect our society (negatively affect, no less) they would rather spend that money in a way that makes them feel better about themselves.

Jaded? Maybe a little. But I see it more as taking a realistic look at the world and doing something (or at least b!tching) about it instead of acting as if it's all going to be OK.

On pride and arrogance: I don't understand your argument at all. I tried, but failed. But it does occur to me that an American calling Russians arrogant is like the pot calling the proverbial kettle black, if I believed that Russians came even close to the sheer arrogance that Americans exhibit. In fact, I would *so* watch that debate: "Americans are arrogant, Russians are Proud. Discuss." And my money would be on the pro argument.

I never said Americans weren't just as arrogant. The difference being most Americans are arrogant out of ignorance, most Russians out of pride.

"USA! USA! USA!..."

- "Sir, that stuff was made in China."

"Oh. But we sell it in the... USA! USA! USA!"

"Rossiya! Rossiya! Rossiya!"

- "Sir, that stuff was made in China."

"Of course I know that. But it was original Russian stuff and we sell formula to Chinese and now makes more money off stupid Chinese....... Rossiya! Rossiya! Rossiya!"

It's the same BS, just a different way to bottle it.

[Blues Fairy 0]

I generalized that Russians were arrogant and indifferent. Mox presented some examples of non-indifferent Russians (who didn't seem very arrogant either) but that fails to disprove my generalization. Once again, in a generalization, not every single one of someone or something has to fall into the generalization for it to still hold true. That's why it's a generalization and not a fact.

So you're going to deny that Russians, by very definition, are arrogant and indifferent?

If you can show me a Russian being humble or ashamed, I'll consider an apology. Until then, I'm sticking to my generalization.

Prove me wrong. I have hope that there are Russians out there who aren't arrogant and indifferent. Who are humble and compassionate. Who can be empathetic without being condescending.

As the discussion progresses, your concept of generalization changes like the phases of the Moon.

[workin4somethin 0]

On pride and arrogance: I don't understand your argument at all. I tried, but failed. But it does occur to me that an American calling Russians arrogant is like the pot calling the proverbial kettle black, if I believed that Russians came even close to the sheer arrogance that Americans exhibit. In fact, I would *so* watch that debate: "Americans are arrogant, Russians are Proud. Discuss." And my money would be on the pro argument.

Face the fact, Russians are arrogant. The average Russian male walks and talks with a swagger, and can beat his wife without her having any legal recourse; then, he can divorce her and take all her possessions. The average Russian female is blinded by arrogance and doesn’t realize she would be better off finding a non-Russian husband. By the way, arrogance is pride, overbearing pride.

[eekee 182]

On pride and arrogance: I don't understand your argument at all. I tried, but failed. But it does occur to me that an American calling Russians arrogant is like the pot calling the proverbial kettle black, if I believed that Russians came even close to the sheer arrogance that Americans exhibit. In fact, I would *so* watch that debate: "Americans are arrogant, Russians are Proud. Discuss." And my money would be on the pro argument.

Face the fact, Russians are arrogant. The average Russian male walks and talks with a swagger, and can beat his wife without her having any legal recourse; then, he can divorce her and take all her possessions. The average Russian female is blinded by arrogance and doesn’t realize she would be better off finding a non-Russian husband. By the way, arrogance is pride, overbearing pride.

wow. where did you learn that, an anti-russian man propaganda website? i know plenty of good russian men, including my guy. there are good and bad men everywhere. to have such a skewed view (russian women are "better off" with a non-russian guy?) shows no respect for the culture you married into.

Edited February 27, 2008 by eekee

[eekee 182]

Face the fact, Russians are arrogant. The average Russian male walks and talks with a swagger, and can beat his wife without her having any legal recourse; then, he can divorce her and take all her possessions. The average Russian female is blinded by arrogance and doesn’t realize she would be better off finding a non-Russian husband. By the way, arrogance is pride, overbearing pride.

There is no "fact" to "face." You're operating on a stereotype. You might as well be saying "the average black man be-bops down the street with a boom-box under one arm and a knife in the other." Or "the average American wears a gigantic belt buckle, chews tobacco, and hates Arabs." I have never understood why anyone would marry a woman whose people they have such little respect for.

And arrogance is not overbearing pride. Arrogance is a character flaw. Arrogance is believing you have somehow rescued a woman from the evils of marrying her own people.

exactly what i was trying to say, only you said it better. How can you have respect in your relationship if you have no respect for where spouse came from and their culture?

[~Laura and Nick~ 5]

Face the fact, Russians are arrogant. The average Russian male walks and talks with a swagger, and can beat his wife without her having any legal recourse; then, he can divorce her and take all her possessions. The average Russian female is blinded by arrogance and doesn’t realize she would be better off finding a non-Russian husband. By the way, arrogance is pride, overbearing pride.

You know what buddy? You are a moron.

I would never ever marry someone who had the distaste for Canada as you seem to have for Russia.

How can you even love someone when you obviously hate her culture, heritage and people?

Pathetic.

[akdiver 3]

And for those of you out there pissed off about my "generalization of Russians as arrogant and indifferent" you need to remember that a generalization doesn't mean that every single person is exactly this way. It "generalizes" them into a certain category. If you don't fit in that category good. But can you not make a generalization of some sort? (Any subject?) And once again, if I'm wrong in my generalization please explain to me why.

Slim, you are truly a god amongst men. I agree with almost everything you have to say, including your "Make a wish" argument, on which you are entirely correct.

However, I think you're a bit off with how you are using/defining a generalization.

NOT a generalization: Americans are fat.

IS a generalization: Most Americans are fat. Americans tend to be fatties. In general, Americans are fat. Americans are generally fat. Studies show that....

That said, generalizations, like their much-aligned cousin, stereotypes, are a USEFUL AND NECESSARY human feature that allows them to survive and evolve.

Stereotype: tigers are generous.

Gets mentally translated as "all tigers are dangerous". ARE all tigers dangerous? No. Is it good personal policy to assume they are? You betcha.

Applying this to a more typical situation.... woman walking down the street one night, sees three black guys walking toward her from the other direction - maybe doing nothing other than chatting amongst themselves as they walk down the street.

Stereotype: young black men are dangerous.

Action: cross the street, reach hand in purse, ####### gun, just in case.

Result: woman feels safer. Blacks cry racism, rally against the evils of white-dominated society.

The catch: Oops! The woman is a black woman!!

Does the catch change anything? Does the charge of racism go away? How can a black woman possibly be racist against black men?

Isn't it possible that the stereotype "young black men are dangerous" and taking action to guard against it a prudent thing to do, regardless of one's own colour or even gender? Look at the result again. Woman feels safer, the black men feel offended. Once again, is she really responsible for their feelings? How can that be? She has no control over how they choose to feel or not feel. What she DOES have control over is whether or not she crosses the street. This is all she has done. How someone else feels about her crossing the street is really none of her business, concern or otherwise.

Stereotype: students that do well in high school will do well in college

Action: give preferential admissions treatment to HS students with a high GPA

Result: other students do not get into college, there are only so many spots available

How valid is this stereotype? How "fair" is the result?

Stereotype: only those who graduate from medical school & residency can be a qualified doctor

Action: only allow such people to practice medicine

Result: lots of people with interest in being a doctor but don't have time/money for school are excluded (even if, through "self education", they may have more knowledge than a med school graduate)

How valid is this stereotype? How "fair" is the result?

Stereotypes come in all kinds of flavours and levels of validity. However, they are based on observation, data and beliefs, just like pretty much anything else humans think about. They are also useful and necessary for humans to survive.

People shouldn't be all up in arms about stereotypes (generalizations), but they (you, Slim) should be clear about the language involved when declaring one. "Russians are arrogant" may be a generalization in your mind, but it clearly doesn't communicate to others that way - otherwise this sprout from the thread wouldn't have happened. I think a more successful way of communicating your message may be, "Many Russians are arrogant." On the other hand, such a statement doesn't really say much. Many people of whatever nationality you might wish to specify are arrogant too. Big deal. So what to do? "Russians tend to be arrogant?" Maybe a little better I guess. The other approach is for the person receiving the communication to try to understand the frame of mind of the sender. Work a little if you want to understand what someone else is trying to tell you.

FWIW, I don't believe Russians are any more arrogant than anyone else. Look at the Bush administration, U.S. foreign policy for the last 150 years and our plethora of religious people who insist that they have insight as to the "one pure truth" and that if you don't think like they do, you're either going to be in trouble with "god" or they are fully justified in killing you for general purposes. Arrogance abounds - the Russians have no special skills in this area.

Cheers!

AKDiver

Edited February 27, 2008 by akdiver

[Kazan' Tiger 1]

Yes, they are! My fiancée says I am many times!

And for those of you out there pissed off about my "generalization of Russians as arrogant and indifferent" you need to remember that a generalization doesn't mean that every single person is exactly this way. It "generalizes" them into a certain category. If you don't fit in that category good. But can you not make a generalization of some sort? (Any subject?) And once again, if I'm wrong in my generalization please explain to me why.

Slim, you are truly a god amongst men. I agree with almost everything you have to say, including your "Make a wish" argument, on which you are entirely correct.

However, I think you're a bit off with how you are using/defining a generalization.

NOT a generalization: Americans are fat.

IS a generalization: Most Americans are fat. Americans tend to be fatties. In general, Americans are fat. Americans are generally fat. Studies show that....

That said, generalizations, like their much-aligned cousin, stereotypes, are a USEFUL AND NECESSARY human feature that allows them to survive and evolve.

Stereotype: tigers are generous.

Gets mentally translated as "all tigers are dangerous". ARE all tigers dangerous? No. Is it good personal policy to assume they are? You betcha.

Applying this to a more typical situation.... woman walking down the street one night, sees three black guys walking toward her from the other direction - maybe doing nothing other than chatting amongst themselves as they walk down the street.

Stereotype: young black men are dangerous.

Action: cross the street, reach hand in purse, ####### gun, just in case.

Result: woman feels safer. Blacks cry racism, rally against the evils of white-dominated society.

The catch: Oops! The woman is a black woman!!

Does the catch change anything? Does the charge of racism go away? How can a black woman possibly be racist against black men?

Isn't it possible that the stereotype "young black men are dangerous" and taking action to guard against it a prudent thing to do, regardless of one's own colour or even gender? Look at the result again. Woman feels safer, the black men feel offended. Once again, is she really responsible for their feelings? How can that be? She has no control over how they choose to feel or not feel. What she DOES have control over is whether or not she crosses the street. This is all she has done. How someone else feels about her crossing the street is really none of her business, concern or otherwise.

Stereotype: students that do well in high school will do well in college

Action: give preferential admissions treatment to HS students with a high GPA

Result: other students do not get into college, there are only so many spots available

How valid is this stereotype? How "fair" is the result?

Stereotype: only those who graduate from medical school & residency can be a qualified doctor

Action: only allow such people to practice medicine

Result: lots of people with interest in being a doctor but don't have time/money for school are excluded (even if, through "self education", they may have more knowledge than a med school graduate)

How valid is this stereotype? How "fair" is the result?

Stereotypes come in all kinds of flavours and levels of validity. However, they are based on observation, data and beliefs, just like pretty much anything else humans think about. They are also useful and necessary for humans to survive.

People shouldn't be all up in arms about stereotypes (generalizations), but they (you, Slim) should be clear about the language involved when declaring one. "Russians are arrogant" may be a generalization in your mind, but it clearly doesn't communicate to others that way - otherwise this sprout from the thread wouldn't have happened. I think a more successful way of communicating your message may be, "Many Russians are arrogant." On the other hand, such a statement doesn't really say much. Many people of whatever nationality you might wish to specify are arrogant too. Big deal. So what to do? "Russians tend to be arrogant?" Maybe a little better I guess. The other approach is for the person receiving the communication to try to understand the frame of mind of the sender. Work a little if you want to understand what someone else is trying to tell you.

FWIW, I don't believe Russians are any more arrogant than anyone else. Look at the Bush administration, U.S. foreign policy for the last 150 years and our plethora of religious people who insist that they have insight as to the "one pure truth" and that if you don't think like they do, you're either going to be in trouble with "god" or they are fully justified in killing you for general purposes. Arrogance abounds - the Russians have no special skills in this area.

Cheers!

AKDiver

[Blues Fairy 0]

Stereotypes come in all kinds of flavours and levels of validity. However, they are based on observation, data and beliefs, just like pretty much anything else humans think about. They are also useful and necessary for humans to survive.

In this particular thread, a stereotype was used to explain/justify the behavior of the original poster(s). "Sat behaved like a jerk, but considering that he is Russian (and all Russians are arrogant and insensitive), it's not such a big deal".

Quite an offensive way to use a stereotype, don't you think?

Another example: "akdiver is a heck of a demagogue, but considering he's an American, there's no surprise, since demagoguery is the typical style of dispute among the Americans."