The Gun Control Debate

[rebeccajo 14]

You're right. We don't need more laws. What we need is for self-obsessed protectionists to stop believing they need to personally own a half-dozen or more devices because each one of them has a unique and different thumbprint for death.

Yes, and exactly how well are Jaseball's rifles and shotgun protecting him?

That's because there are no laws on burglarizing other people's homes and stealing their property. If we have these sorts of laws in place, then criminals would not be able to.....oh, wait a second.....

Please. You said yourself the thieves entered your house during Christmas. Not only could they have taken your electronics, your jewelry and any other valuables in your home, but they could have helped themselves to brand new, unopened ones.

Yet they chose your guns. Gee, I wonder why?

[rebeccajo 14]

It's interesting to note how many of the people who want more gun control don't even know the restrictions we already have.

Just a thought.

Keep blowing that smoke up your own skirt, Gary. Does it help your justification to own a device that has no other purpose on this earth than killing to believe people who disagree with you have no knowledge of current laws on carrying or purchasing?

You're right. We don't need more laws. What we need is for self-obsessed protectionists to stop believing they need to personally own a half-dozen or more devices because each one of them has a unique and different thumbprint for death.

I don't wear a skirt.

Owning firearms is justified because the right to self-defense is justified. Some people would choose to die rather than kill to defend themselves. That's they're choice.

Personally I think owning a half-dozen or more firearms is counterproductive WRT self-defense. Not many people can learn to shot that many different firearms well, and as they say, "only hits count".

The 'right' to self defense against the criminal element is not even in the damn Constitution. The right for individuals to bear arms was granted so that citizens could protect themselves against an oppressive government.

Maybe rifles are so popular because 'hitting what counts' is so much easier with one. Much more effective in a classroom situation I would guess. Even if you don't blow off the whole head, you might get an ear.

The right to self defense isn't explicit in the constitution, but it's implied in our laws. Or maybe you think that people should not be allowed to kill to defend themselves?

Personally I wouldn't go for a head shot unless I thought the perp was wearing a vest and I was at short range, or with a scope at long range. It's just common sense.

Nice thinking. Maybe the Illinois shooter gave it the same amount of thought you do. After all, students sitting in tightly packed lecture hall have pretty much no other part of their body as a visible targe except their heads.

Nice going. I love how you people work this out in your minds.

[rebeccajo 14]

Guns and cigarettes aren't really apples to apples anyway. There is no constitutional right to smoke. So our local do-gooders can just legislate away all they like.

But I'll see your five and raise you a ten that if more people started socially criticizing your guns; shaking their heads and clucking their tongues at you when you walked out of WalMart carrying your new rifle; and telling their children how 'horrible' that gun is - like they do cigarettes - well then maybe Little Johnny wouldn't be so inclined to break into your gun safe and pepper-spray his classmates on a morning he woke up pi$$ed off at the world.

that actually happened to me.

i was buying 12 gauge shells (wearing sweatpants & an old worn out t-shirt) & a lady says to her kids "see what kind of people have guns". i looked at her kids, pointed at their mom & said "you see what kind of people think its ok to pass judgement on other people while they buy batteries for their vibrators w/ their kids at wal mart & drink whiskey while they take their xannax in front of their kids at home"....she wasn't amused...but another guy in wal mart about pizzed on himself he was laughing so hard.

Well that was a stroke of social genius!!

Did the children's mother have her vibrator sticking out of her purse? Was their Father carrying his Xanax prescription?

You, on the other hand, had your brand new box of shells.

Sounds to me like you were the one making the judgments, not the parents.

[Jaseball 0]

There really is no need for this debate. End of the day I and other gun owners will still be armed and the anti-gun folks won't be. I'm ok with that.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Gun control means keeping two hands on your gun and hitting what you shoot at.

Gary, if there was a way to prevent that school shooting, would you be in favor of it, even if it included tighter restrictions on gun sales?

That's a loaded question. (no pun intended)

The guy was obviously a nut case intent on killing people for whatever reason. If he didn't have a gun he would probably just drive his car into a crowd of people or something.

Did he have a criminal record? Did he have a record of mental problems? How did he get the gun(s) used? Until we know these things, it's impossible to know if gun sale restrictions would make any difference, and what type of restrictions would prevent this type of crime.

I don't believe the tightening of gun sale restrictions that we have done over the past few decades have done much, if anything to prevent such shootings, so I have little reason to believe that more restrictions would do anything either. I'm a strong believer in the right to self defense, and I think the major impact of more restrictions on gun sales would only be to hamper people's ability to defend themselves.

It was a simple question and you dodged the bullet (no pun intended). I'm not arguing over what can be done but hypothetically, if something could be done to prevent future shootings, including restrictions on gun sales, would you be in favor of it - yes or no?

Edited February 15, 2008 by Mister Fancypants

[john & jean 37]

Guns and cigarettes aren't really apples to apples anyway. There is no constitutional right to smoke. So our local do-gooders can just legislate away all they like.

But I'll see your five and raise you a ten that if more people started socially criticizing your guns; shaking their heads and clucking their tongues at you when you walked out of WalMart carrying your new rifle; and telling their children how 'horrible' that gun is - like they do cigarettes - well then maybe Little Johnny wouldn't be so inclined to break into your gun safe and pepper-spray his classmates on a morning he woke up pi$$ed off at the world.

that actually happened to me.

i was buying 12 gauge shells (wearing sweatpants & an old worn out t-shirt) & a lady says to her kids "see what kind of people have guns". i looked at her kids, pointed at their mom & said "you see what kind of people think its ok to pass judgement on other people while they buy batteries for their vibrators w/ their kids at wal mart & drink whiskey while they take their xannax in front of their kids at home"....she wasn't amused...but another guy in wal mart about pizzed on himself he was laughing so hard.

Smoke I would give my next pay check to have been there!!

[rebeccajo 14]

There really is no need for this debate. End of the day I and other gun owners will still be armed and the anti-gun folks won't be. I'm ok with that.

Yes.

That kind of thinking is exactly why I don't want anybody with that mindset being part of the 'well armed militia' that rises up against the government.

Edited February 15, 2008 by rebeccajo

[garya505 2]

There really is no need for this debate. End of the day I and other gun owners will still be armed and the anti-gun folks won't be. I'm ok with that.

Me too.

Everytime there's a shooting like this, the anti-gun crowd wants to pass some more feel-good legislation that doesn't work.

[SMOKE 1,426]

Guns and cigarettes aren't really apples to apples anyway. There is no constitutional right to smoke. So our local do-gooders can just legislate away all they like.

But I'll see your five and raise you a ten that if more people started socially criticizing your guns; shaking their heads and clucking their tongues at you when you walked out of WalMart carrying your new rifle; and telling their children how 'horrible' that gun is - like they do cigarettes - well then maybe Little Johnny wouldn't be so inclined to break into your gun safe and pepper-spray his classmates on a morning he woke up pi$$ed off at the world.

that actually happened to me.

i was buying 12 gauge shells (wearing sweatpants & an old worn out t-shirt) & a lady says to her kids "see what kind of people have guns". i looked at her kids, pointed at their mom & said "you see what kind of people think its ok to pass judgement on other people while they buy batteries for their vibrators w/ their kids at wal mart & drink whiskey while they take their xannax in front of their kids at home"....she wasn't amused...but another guy in wal mart about pizzed on himself he was laughing so hard.

Well that was a stroke of social genius!!

Did the children's mother have her vibrator sticking out of her purse? Was their Father carrying his Xanax prescription?

You, on the other hand, had your brand new box of shells.

Sounds to me like you were the one making the judgments, not the parents.

yah i was pretty proud of myself. yes i passed the same kinda judgements she did. "see what kind of people have guns"....(low lifes wearing sweatpants & an old worn out tee shirt) vs. a holier than thou b!tch that can't respect the fact that i have the right to own & use guns.

[rebeccajo 14]

There really is no need for this debate. End of the day I and other gun owners will still be armed and the anti-gun folks won't be. I'm ok with that.

Me too.

Everytime there's a shooting like this, the anti-gun crowd wants to pass some more feel-good legislation that doesn't work.

I see your daughter's picture in your avatar. I hear the cries in my head of six mothers in Illinois.

Don't talk to me about your weapons and your 'rights'.

A gun is a cold piece of steel. Six families today are devastated because of one. Look at your daughter and tell me how you think they feel.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

There really is no need for this debate. End of the day I and other gun owners will still be armed and the anti-gun folks won't be. I'm ok with that.

Me too.

Everytime there's a shooting like this, the anti-gun crowd wants to pass some more feel-good legislation that doesn't work.

What legislation? (And don't try to pigeon hole everyone here who argues that something can be done to prevent future shootings as anti-gun)

[rebeccajo 14]

Guns and cigarettes aren't really apples to apples anyway. There is no constitutional right to smoke. So our local do-gooders can just legislate away all they like.

But I'll see your five and raise you a ten that if more people started socially criticizing your guns; shaking their heads and clucking their tongues at you when you walked out of WalMart carrying your new rifle; and telling their children how 'horrible' that gun is - like they do cigarettes - well then maybe Little Johnny wouldn't be so inclined to break into your gun safe and pepper-spray his classmates on a morning he woke up pi$$ed off at the world.

that actually happened to me.

i was buying 12 gauge shells (wearing sweatpants & an old worn out t-shirt) & a lady says to her kids "see what kind of people have guns". i looked at her kids, pointed at their mom & said "you see what kind of people think its ok to pass judgement on other people while they buy batteries for their vibrators w/ their kids at wal mart & drink whiskey while they take their xannax in front of their kids at home"....she wasn't amused...but another guy in wal mart about pizzed on himself he was laughing so hard.

Well that was a stroke of social genius!!

Did the children's mother have her vibrator sticking out of her purse? Was their Father carrying his Xanax prescription?

You, on the other hand, had your brand new box of shells.

Sounds to me like you were the one making the judgments, not the parents.

yah i was pretty proud of myself. yes i passed the same kinda judgements she did. "see what kind of people have guns"....(low lifes wearing sweatpants & an old worn out tee shirt) vs. a holier than thou b!tch that can't respect the fact that i have the right to own & use guns.

I don't think what someone wears makes them a 'low life'. I think what they teach their children can say a great deal about them.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This should shed some light....

NIU gunman stopped taking medication

DEKALB, Ill. - The man who gunned down five people at Northern Illinois University in a suicidal rampage became erratic after halting his medication and carried a shotgun to campus inside a guitar case, police said Friday.

The man, 27-year-old former student Stephen Kazmierczak, was also wielding three handguns during Thursday's ambush inside a lecture hall.

Two of the weapons — the pump-action Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun — were purchased legally less than a week ago, on Feb. 9, authorities said. They were purchased in Champaign, where Kazmierczak was enrolled at the University of Illinois.

A spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms said the other two guns were also traced to the Champaign gun shop, but the ATF was still determining when Kazmierczak picked them up.

Kazmierczak had a valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card, which is required for all Illinois residents who buy or possess firearms, authorities said.

The gunman's father, Robert Kazmierczak, briefly came out of his single-story house in Lakeland, Fla., to talk to reporters.

"Please leave me alone. I have no statement to make and no comment. OK? I'd appreciate that. This is a very hard time. I'm a diabetic and I don't want to go into a relapse," he said before breaking down crying.

He then went back inside his house, which has a sign on the front door that says "Illini fans live here."

President Bush talked by telephone with NIU President John Peters and said people will be praying for the families of the victims and for the Northern Illinois University community.

Campus Police Chief Donald Grady said investigators recovered 48 shell casings and six shotgun shells following the attack in Cole Hall. The gunman paused to reload his shotgun after opening fire on a crowd of terrified students in a geology class, sending them running and crawling toward the exits. He shot himself to death on the stage of the hall.

Kazmierczak, whose first name was earlier listed as Steven, was taking some kind of medication, Grady said.

"He had stopped taking medication and become somewhat erratic in the last couple of weeks," Grady said, declining to name the drug or provide other details.

Correcting information his office released earlier Friday, DeKalb County Coroner Dennis J. Miller said five students, not six, were killed in the rampage, in addition to the gunman. Miller said the higher victim total was the result of confusion over the fate of a patient taken to another county for treatment.

"There was a miscommunication," Miller said.

The motive of the killer, who graduated from NIU in 2006 but was a student there as recently as last year, was still not known. Grady said Kazmierczak was an "outstanding" student while at NIU and authorities were still trying to determine why he would kill. There was no known suicide note.

"We were dealing with a disturbed individual who intended to do harm on this campus," Peters said.

Witnesses said the gunman, dressed in black and wearing a stocking cap, emerged from behind a screen on the stage of 200-seat Cole Hall and opened fire just as the class was about to end around 3 p.m. Officials said 162 students were registered for the class but it was unknown how many were there Thursday.

John Giovanni, 20, of Des Plaines said the gunman calmly fired at the greatest concentration of students.

"He was shooting from the hip. He was just shooting," said Giovanni, who turned and ran so fast that he lost a shoe. "I was running but I was hurtling over people in the fetal position."

Peters said four people died at the scene, including three students and the gunman. The other died at a hospital. The teacher, a graduate student, was wounded but was expected to recover.

Miller released the identities of four victims: Daniel Parmenter, 20, of Westchester; Catalina Garcia, 20, of Cicero; Ryanne Mace, 19, of Carpentersville; and Julianna Gehant, 32, of Meridan.

Another victim, Gayle Dubowski, a 20-year-old sophomore from Carol Stream, died at a Rockford hospital, Winnebago County Coroner Sue Fiduccia said.

The killer had been a graduate student in sociology at Northern Illinois as recently as spring 2007, Peters said. He also said the suspect had no record of police contact or an arrest record while attending Northern Illinois, a campus with 25,000 students about 65 miles west of Chicago.

The gunman was a student at the University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign, Chancellor Richard Herman said. The university is about 140 miles south of Chicago.

Lauren Carr said she was sitting in the third row when she saw the shooter walk through a door on the right-hand side of the stage, pointing a gun straight ahead.

"I personally Army-crawled halfway up the aisle," said Carr, a 20-year-old sophomore. "I said I could get up and run or I could die here."

She said a student in front of her was bleeding, "but he just kept running."

"I heard this girl scream, 'Run, he's reloading the gun!'"

More than a hundred students cried and hugged as they gathered outside the Phi Kappa Alpha house early Friday to remember Parmenter. Flowers, candles and small notes were left in the snow near Cole Hall. Flags were flying at half-staff. At a house across the street, a hand-drawn banner made out of a sheet said: 'NIU We Pray 4 U'

The campus was closed on Friday. Students were urged to call their parents and were offered counseling at any residence hall, according to the school Web site.

The school was closed for one day during final exam week in December after campus police found threats, including racial slurs and references to shootings earlier in the year at Virginia Tech, scrawled on a bathroom wall in a dormitory. Police determined after an investigation that there was no imminent threat and the campus was reopened. Peters said he knew of no connection between that incident and Thursday's attack.

___

Associated Press writers Carla K. Johnson, Michael Tarm, David Mercer, Martha Irvine, Nguyen Huy Vu, Sarah Rafi, Mike Robinson, Anthony McCartney in Lakeland, Fla., and photographer Charles Rex Arbogast contributed to this report.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/niu_shooting

[SMOKE 1,426]

Guns and cigarettes aren't really apples to apples anyway. There is no constitutional right to smoke. So our local do-gooders can just legislate away all they like.

But I'll see your five and raise you a ten that if more people started socially criticizing your guns; shaking their heads and clucking their tongues at you when you walked out of WalMart carrying your new rifle; and telling their children how 'horrible' that gun is - like they do cigarettes - well then maybe Little Johnny wouldn't be so inclined to break into your gun safe and pepper-spray his classmates on a morning he woke up pi$$ed off at the world.

that actually happened to me.

i was buying 12 gauge shells (wearing sweatpants & an old worn out t-shirt) & a lady says to her kids "see what kind of people have guns". i looked at her kids, pointed at their mom & said "you see what kind of people think its ok to pass judgement on other people while they buy batteries for their vibrators w/ their kids at wal mart & drink whiskey while they take their xannax in front of their kids at home"....she wasn't amused...but another guy in wal mart about pizzed on himself he was laughing so hard.

Well that was a stroke of social genius!!

Did the children's mother have her vibrator sticking out of her purse? Was their Father carrying his Xanax prescription?

You, on the other hand, had your brand new box of shells.

Sounds to me like you were the one making the judgments, not the parents.

yah i was pretty proud of myself. yes i passed the same kinda judgements she did. "see what kind of people have guns"....(low lifes wearing sweatpants & an old worn out tee shirt) vs. a holier than thou b!tch that can't respect the fact that i have the right to own & use guns.

I don't think what someone wears makes them a 'low life'. I think what they teach their children can say a great deal about them.

i agree...but that is what she was saying to her kids.

[garya505 2]

There really is no need for this debate. End of the day I and other gun owners will still be armed and the anti-gun folks won't be. I'm ok with that.

Me too.

Everytime there's a shooting like this, the anti-gun crowd wants to pass some more feel-good legislation that doesn't work.

I see your daughter's picture in your avatar. I hear the cries in my head of six mothers in Illinois.

Don't talk to me about your weapons and your 'rights'.

A gun is a cold piece of steel. Six families today are devastated because of one. Look at your daughter and tell me how you think they feel.

That's the difference here. You think the gun is to blame and I think it's the criminal. So be it.