Divorce Decree - seal?

[rebeccajo 14]

My divorce decrees had a ink stamp that said true and complete signed by a rep from the county clerk and a embossed stamp as well. This proves its a certified copy.

Okay, but since I am going to give my fiance the final judgment that the court sent me eons ago with their original stamp and they dated the "effective date of termination" in blue ink, wouldn't this be considered okay to turn in? I want to save myself the trip of going to the courthouse and making an exact replica of what i have, just to get it certified.

The one I have now has the judge's original stamps and dates filled in by the court in blue ink. Wouldn't that suffice since it is a true copy from the superior court?

Yes, this would be fine.

No it's not fine. Your divorce is not really official until it is entered in the records! You need a copy showing such has been done!

Just a question? Have you filed your petition without first obtaining your final divorce decree? Because I am waiting on mine it will be another month or so and have not filed my petition because of it? Can i file then include it later... and when later?

thanks

Is your divorce final? You can't file your I-129F unless you are legally allowed to marry at the time of filing. If you file before your divorce is final, you will be denied. If, on the other hand, the judgment is final and you're just waiting on the paperwork to get to you, then I suppose you could go ahead and file now. You'll get an RFE requesting the divorce decree, at which time you should have it and can send it in.

Doesn't the term "decree" simply mean "judgment of the court"? Mine doesn't have "decree" on the actual document but it does say "judgment of dissolution".

Yeah, sounds like the same thing.

thanks mox....

it will be final this week but will take a month or so to get the decree... did not know if it was worth filing now getting an RFE

or waiting until i get it and file. I do not know if i am saving us any time by doing it the first way...

Again, very incorrect.

This is a great way to help people screw up their cases.

You will not get an RFE for the lack of this document. You will get a DENIAL because you are not free to marry.

Edited January 14, 2008 by rebeccajo

[rebeccajo 14]

My divorce decrees had a ink stamp that said true and complete signed by a rep from the county clerk and a embossed stamp as well. This proves its a certified copy.

Okay, but since I am going to give my fiance the final judgment that the court sent me eons ago with their original stamp and they dated the "effective date of termination" in blue ink, wouldn't this be considered okay to turn in? I want to save myself the trip of going to the courthouse and making an exact replica of what i have, just to get it certified.

The one I have now has the judge's original stamps and dates filled in by the court in blue ink. Wouldn't that suffice since it is a true copy from the superior court?

Yes, this would be fine.

No it's not fine. Your divorce is not really official until it is entered in the records! You need a copy showing such has been done!

See bolded. If it's got a stamp, if it's been signed by a judge, and if it's complete, then the divorce is final. Record-keeping is the county's problem, not the divorcee.

Again, very incorrect.

This is a great way to help people screw up their cases.

You will not get an RFE for the lack of this document. You will get a DENIAL because you are not free to marry.

The OP says their divorce is FINAL, they are just waiting on the paperwork. I think I made it pretty clear that the divorce needs to be final at the time of filing. If the divorce is final, then the paperwork will reflect that fact. The OP needs to take some responsibility here and be absolutely sure that they are ONLY waiting on the paperwork that reflects the original divorce date. The requirement for a K-1 is that the petitioner(s) be free to marry at the time of filing. If the OP meets this criteria, then it doesn't matter if they have decree in hand or not. It only matters that the decree reflect a final divorce date pre-filing.

Mox, I've worked in a law firm for over 15 years. I'm really not trying to make you look bad, but your advice is 100% incorrect. A decree of divorce may be final on the date the judge signs it, but the county record does not reflect the marriage is over until it is entered. Your divorce is not official until the day that occurs, and you are not free to marry until the county record reflects same.

Record keeping is not the 'counties problem'. It is the 'legal record'.

On a personal note, I recall the family court judge (on the day of my final hearing) expressly adding her standard verbal disclaimer after the hearing admonishing my ex and I not to get any bright ideas to remarry just yet - that until the order was entered our divorce was not final.

Edited January 14, 2008 by rebeccajo

[rebeccajo 14]

Mox, I've worked in a law firm for over 15 years. I'm really not trying to make you look bad, but your advice is 100% incorrect. A decree of divorce may be final on the date the judge signs it, but the county record does not reflect the marriage is over until it is entered. Your divorce is not official until the day that occurs, and you are not free to marry until the county record reflects same.

Record keeping is not the 'counties problem'. It is the 'legal record'.

On a personal note, I recall the family court judge (on the day of my final hearing) expressly adding her standard verbal disclaimer after the hearing admonishing my ex and I not to get any bright ideas to remarry just yet - that until the order was entered our divorce was not final.

Fair enough. I think the OP has enough information to determine how and when they want to file. I completely understand going by the letter of the law. On the other hand, the odds of USCIS checking with the county court to see when all the i's were dotted and t's were crossed borders on the inconceivable. They're looking for a stamped decree with a pre-filing date. I don't say that to undermine what you're saying, because when it comes to the letter of the law I would defer to your experience. Good on you for bringing it up, because the OP needs to understand the ramifications of trying to save some time. But if it were me, if I had a decree in my hand that's been signed and stamped by a judge, I know what I'd do.

I certainly cannot speak for other jurisdictions, but when I left the courtroom after my final divorce hearing, I had no copies of any kind of papers. Everything that was pertinent was still lying on the judges desk.

[DerekJ 0]

Mox, I've worked in a law firm for over 15 years. I'm really not trying to make you look bad, but your advice is 100% incorrect. A decree of divorce may be final on the date the judge signs it, but the county record does not reflect the marriage is over until it is entered. Your divorce is not official until the day that occurs, and you are not free to marry until the county record reflects same.

Record keeping is not the 'counties problem'. It is the 'legal record'.

On a personal note, I recall the family court judge (on the day of my final hearing) expressly adding her standard verbal disclaimer after the hearing admonishing my ex and I not to get any bright ideas to remarry just yet - that until the order was entered our divorce was not final.

Fair enough. I think the OP has enough information to determine how and when they want to file. I completely understand going by the letter of the law. On the other hand, the odds of USCIS checking with the county court to see when all the i's were dotted and t's were crossed borders on the inconceivable. They're looking for a stamped decree with a pre-filing date. I don't say that to undermine what you're saying, because when it comes to the letter of the law I would defer to your experience. Good on you for bringing it up, because the OP needs to understand the ramifications of trying to save some time. But if it were me, if I had a decree in my hand that's been signed and stamped by a judge, I know what I'd do.

Mox is quite correct. In most jurisdictions, a divorce decree is not final until it is filed. It is usually up to the person who was granted the divorce to do this filing. Can't speak for other jurisdictions but in NY the filing place is the clerk of the county in which the divorce was granted. No one should take a chance on their visa application by ignoring this simple step. Having the divorce decree filed and available from the county clerk's office also has the added benefit of being able to receive a certified copy of the decree that would satisfy the USCIS.

[DerekJ 0]

Oops, I meant rebeccajo who is correct.

[rebeccajo 14]

.... In most jurisdictions, a divorce decree is not final until it is filed. It is usually up to the person who was granted the divorce to do this filing. Can't speak for other jurisdictions but in NY the filing place is the clerk of the county in which the divorce was granted. No one should take a chance on their visa application by ignoring this simple step. Having the divorce decree filed and available from the county clerk's office also has the added benefit of being able to receive a certified copy of the decree that would satisfy the USCIS.

Interesting that in NY such an important step would be left up to the involved parties.

Here the judge enters the final order. And the judges sign nothing at the hearing. They usually tend to paperwork later on that day privately in chambers.

[rebeccajo 14]

I certainly cannot speak for other jurisdictions, but when I left the courtroom after my final divorce hearing, I had no copies of any kind of papers. Everything that was pertinent was still lying on the judges desk.

Okay, I just went back and read the OP, and see that I misunderstood the bit about the stamp. For some reason I read that it was a Judge's stamp (i.e., certified), but I see now that it was a stamp of his signature. (that's why I said it was the county's problem about the filing.) So I understand now why the paper they have in hand isn't "official."

So I amend my advice slightly to say that if the OP is going to submit early, they should feel 100% confident that the date of the decree is going to be pre-filing. Otherwise it's a waste of $455. Your (rebeccajo) advice to hold off until the actual decree is in hand is prudent and sound, and 100% guaranteed not to waste the application fee.

Mox, you're a good guy. I think it's important around here that we not try to be RIGHT, but that our advice is right to the readers. I hope I didn't come across as trying to be RIGHT, because it's better that we learn and not argue.

Here's what 'certified' means. It means something has been entered in the record. Only the Clerk/Recorder or whatever they are called in your county/municipality/parish has the legal authority to attest to the entry of a document. That's why the judges stamped siggy won't work. The judge is saying "OK I now pronounce you NOT husband and wife", but the Clerk is saying "here's proof that happened".

It's also noteworthy that rushing a petition in this instance could have some really bad consequences. Not being free to marry causes a denial. Which means when you refile, you have to explain the previous filing, etc. It's a pain in the butt to wait on your certified divorce decree - I know cause I did it. But it's really not a document you want to try and 'fudge'.

Edited January 14, 2008 by rebeccajo

[DerekJ 0]

.... In most jurisdictions, a divorce decree is not final until it is filed. It is usually up to the person who was granted the divorce to do this filing. Can't speak for other jurisdictions but in NY the filing place is the clerk of the county in which the divorce was granted. No one should take a chance on their visa application by ignoring this simple step. Having the divorce decree filed and available from the county clerk's office also has the added benefit of being able to receive a certified copy of the decree that would satisfy the USCIS.

Interesting that in NY such an important step would be left up to the involved parties.

Here the judge enters the final order. And the judges sign nothing at the hearing. They usually tend to paperwork later on that day privately in chambers.

Yeah, it is interesting. While I don't have stats, I'm sure many people fail to file and go merrily on their way thinking they are divorced. Doesn't surprise me that NY does it that way....that filing is an extra ~$20 in the counties' coffers.

[rebeccajo 14]

.... In most jurisdictions, a divorce decree is not final until it is filed. It is usually up to the person who was granted the divorce to do this filing. Can't speak for other jurisdictions but in NY the filing place is the clerk of the county in which the divorce was granted. No one should take a chance on their visa application by ignoring this simple step. Having the divorce decree filed and available from the county clerk's office also has the added benefit of being able to receive a certified copy of the decree that would satisfy the USCIS.

Interesting that in NY such an important step would be left up to the involved parties.

Here the judge enters the final order. And the judges sign nothing at the hearing. They usually tend to paperwork later on that day privately in chambers.

Yeah, it is interesting. While I don't have stats, I'm sure many people fail to file and go merrily on their way thinking they are divorced. Doesn't surprise me that NY does it that way....that filing is an extra ~$20 in the counties' coffers.

Oh, there's always a recording fee. Everywhere. So that shouldn't be the reason for that kind of policy. If you have representation, does the lawyer take the responsibility for filing the final order? They should, IMO.

The only way I can see it being the parties responsibility to file would be in a pro se action. By 'responsible' I mean - I can only see the policy making sense in that case. If that's their normal procedure, that's pretty - loose.

Edited January 14, 2008 by rebeccajo

[DerekJ 0]

.... In most jurisdictions, a divorce decree is not final until it is filed. It is usually up to the person who was granted the divorce to do this filing. Can't speak for other jurisdictions but in NY the filing place is the clerk of the county in which the divorce was granted. No one should take a chance on their visa application by ignoring this simple step. Having the divorce decree filed and available from the county clerk's office also has the added benefit of being able to receive a certified copy of the decree that would satisfy the USCIS.

Interesting that in NY such an important step would be left up to the involved parties.

Here the judge enters the final order. And the judges sign nothing at the hearing. They usually tend to paperwork later on that day privately in chambers.

Yeah, it is interesting. While I don't have stats, I'm sure many people fail to file and go merrily on their way thinking they are divorced. Doesn't surprise me that NY does it that way....that filing is an extra ~$20 in the counties' coffers.

Oh, there's always a recording fee. Everywhere. So that shouldn't be the reason for that kind of policy. If you have representation, does the lawyer take the responsibility for filing the final order? They should, IMO.

The only way I can see it being the parties responsibility to file would be in a pro se action. By 'responsible' I mean - I can only see the policy making sense in that case. If that's their normal procedure, that's pretty - loose.

Yes, if there is representation, then the prevailing party's attorney does the filing. My implied reason for the practice was just a bit of cynicism on my part. There are so many arcane practices in NY law that it is no wonder that we are one of the costliest states to live in/do business.

[j4k 0]

I have a question on the divorce decree, mine too is about 20 pages long. The first page reads "Divorce Decree in A.V.M." it is signed by the judge with a raised seal and also stamped certified and signed by the court prothonotary and dated. I'm wondering if this first page will do, or will I need to make copies of every page?

What's on the other pages? If it's stuff like the parenting plan and division of assets, then no, you don't need it. Most likely you only need that first page.

Yes, it's stuff about division of assets, etc, no children THANK GOD! so no parenting plan included! THANKS!