evli1966

I did not say the bolded, nor do I agree with it, particularly if you are referring to VJ as an 'opportunity to speak out' I think it is completely inappropriate to ascribe anything to the inaction of those who are members of message board communities. Frankly, VJ is not an appropriate platform to demand anything of anyone - nor should assumptions be made about any member who does not afford themselves of this particular 'opportunity to speak'. It's more of the same, demanding a particular group jumps through hoops because the default position is that they are guilty until proven innocent. Rubbish, that is not an American ideal, nor should it ever be one.

Absolutely not.

It is very insulting that you, mad, sometime soff, IP and others assume I am singling them out demanding anything of them.

Your own biased views and inability to use proper reading comprhension is appaling and to insinuate more than was written is ignorance on the part of ayone that does that.

With that said.

If a person was to speak out they should do so publicly or possibly through the actions of an organization which supports their views.

Simply stated inaction does nothing and those that do not act have no say in the outcome of events which may or may not affect them, their country, their religeon etc.

Discourage. I DO NOT discourage people from calling their senators and OPPOSING this legislation. Feel free to read anything you misunderstand twice.

By all means call. I disagree with any attempt at amnesty, this is nothing more than a conscription of slaves. Illegal aliens will become legal aliens who then will want minimum wage and all the wage/hour protections, payroll taxes, etc. as other legal workers and will immediuately become unemployed and dependent. Since they will no longer be able to offer their employers what their employers wnat...cheap labor with no taxes and no need to comply with wage/hour laws. The current illegals will become unemployed legals and 12 million MORE illegals will cross the border to take their place. the ONLY way to eliminate the "problem" is to eliminate the economic reason illegals come here...jobs. While Obama has done admirable work in eliminating jobs in general, I had more in mind to eliminate jobs for illegals in particular by imposing horrible penalties for employing them.

I am 100% against the DREAM act.

I only wish to inform VJ members that USCIS has been working on this for some time, since at least last September, and they have a plan in place to keep processing of other business within the established timeframes. That is the plan, anyway.

gary thank you for clarifying.

The way it was worded seemd you wanted to use encourge.

With out needing an answer I assume you have inside source which supports what you say.

At least USCIS is tryiing to prepare for the worst it seems.

I do not support the DREAM act. And I do not discourage anyone from calling or writing their Senators to oppose it for any reason.

USCIS has recently made changes in how they handle applications and petitions and this is why. There has been speculation, planning and budgeting for more than a year within USCIS on how to handle the increased workload that an amensty of some sort would create. It is the goal of the new way of handling K-1 petitions, as well as I-130s, to keep the processing times withn the current standards even if there is increased workload.

Do yo mean discourage or encourage.

There those of us who have been waiting 16 months now.

I understand my past actions brough this on but to do what Mr reid wants is BS.

I do not understand why he is apologizing unless he himself took part in the stated actions.

No Muslim should be apologizing to anyone for anything they did not do.

There is a huge difference between speaking out against acts of violence and apologizing for it.

Does he speak truth about media Biased and sensationalism...yes.

Should he or anyone else be apologizing for what others have done...not unless they themselves have done so.

I commend him if his apology is for himself but will wait for his future actions to prove he is truly sorry.

I agree therefore I do not assume anything. However, I was posting specifically in response to someone who said that the cartoonist was stupid for doing what she did, that she should have anticipated the reaction and that anything that happened to her because of it was therefore due - which without a post to the contrary I took as meaning 'deserved'.

While I agree that she might have anticipated the action, and in this case her action was inept (imo), I do not agree that that means that she is due, or deserves the reaction, ie the fatwa. In my opinion, if you say she was due or deserved the reaction I can not see how you are not supporting the extremist view that satire used to illustrate the folly in religion should be banned, whether or not you consider the punishment for going against it as proportionate or not.

That is a specific point aimed at a specific poster's position as I see it (though the conversation was ongoing and the poster may or may not agree). That does not mean that that poster is responsible for any harm that may or may not come to the cartoonist as a result of the issuing of the fatwa, it simply means that the poster appears to be in accordance with the intellectual position of the extremists; that one should not lampoon or satirize religious symbolism as it pertains to the muslim religion no matter what the intent of person doing so is.

How therefore have I implied that not speaking out (in general) has any meaning at all?

I agree

I also agree not speaking out carries 0 weight in intentions and promotes false assumptions which is and has been proven to be adopted as a fact; where as those who had the chance to speak and did not have no right to claim foul when the wrong assumption is made.

Radical Islam gets more exposure because the anti-Islam hate sites that too many here frequent keep alive the impression that there are no Muslims opposing Islam. The problem is not Muslims, the problem is where you go for information.

Explain why I can find this stuff but you all can't.

actually you tell us.

My sources are friends, internet and some media (not just fox, cnn).

Was this particular posting googled or listed in a particular media that allowed you to find it?

Not having access to names as such does not allow us to search responses.

I spoke to Arash today about this person he agreed and said that giving the names of such people will help you find them. We both googled many different ways this letter and the best way to find it was to google

Abu Muhammed Al-Libi Noman Benotman

Open letter to Osama Bin Laden

With that being said with respect maybe instead of telling us I am not going to do the work for you may be you should state have you read about this person; this is only a suggestion

You possibly have access to information to allow you to more easily find these postings etc.

I quoted the wrong post. I was referencing dedixons post which followed it. Small mistake, which happens when you are posting from a handheld device, hardly justifying the page long rant above.

I'm sympathetic towards Incorrect Politics? Sorry, but that's complete BS.

If you don't think whites were originally responsible for calling blacks monkeys, n!ggers, porch monkeys etc etc. etc. and that this is the reason why it those terms are off limits today then there is no hope for you whatsoever.

I never said that but how you posted and the quote you used sugeested only "Old White racist have been in the white house"

With that said I believe most if not all words used to demean a black person did originate from white people.

eww on a mobile I might read but it gets to difficult with my old eyes to try and post as well.

I have added his name Abu Muhammed Al-Libi/Noman Benotman to my search ques.

Thank you this is a strong man.

I believe it took lots of courage for him to have written a letter like this.

Are you further adding to the mischief that you originally caused or are you attempting to actually argue the points you claim you wanted to argue all along? I do not judge anyone as a supporter of extremism for saying nothing on a message board. If someone wants to engage in the discussion about the merits of suggesting a cartoonist should not only not be surprised at the reaction of extremists but that she also deserves that reaction then for sure that supports an extremist view of how people can and should behave in America and I certainly do not support that for one moment.

Actually nothing can be said about someone who does not post it is an assumption.

Just becasue they do not speak out does not mean they support it.

You are not aware of a lot of things, and no, it does not have to be the one who is older who is the predator.

Except in cases envolving a minor and an adult.

Contrary to contemporary opinion these laws were primarily used to prosecute more fully people who had committed other crimes.

Example. Scout master has sex with 14 yr old boy, if there is no law against sodomy that is one less area to convict him on.

The truth is, we never had a sex police unit investigating the sex lives of citizens, but these laws do have a place, as they have historically been used.

Would I vote to strike down such laws if they were used to form a Sex-lives investigation unit? Yes

BUt I think these laws on the books have been used to prosecute people most would want locked up.

These laws you are protecting are for the most part knee jerk laws which are readily abused by law makers to contuinally hound former SO or to keep locked up SO becasue they were convicted of such crimes (such as the 3 strikes law)

I will admit there are SO who need to be kept under lock and key but more than 97% of SO are not violent, predators or violent predators. that 97% will never repeat offend again.

the law is another push by the GOP to try and get votes they may not have; for the most part they never had many votes for the Gay and Lesbian Associations.

Rubbish - see above. We do not need sodomy laws to protect 14 year old scouts from scout masters. Such a relationship is statutory rape and statutory rape is going to be sentenced far harsher than sodomy ever would or could be. If that is your best argument for sodomy laws your argument is baseless.

I agree.

It was a redundant question that insinuates that Muslim vjers would try to defend or justify the actions of extremists.

No it wouldn't.

That is your opinion which in mine is flawed and very far reaching.

I know you mean well, but You need to think about this differently, not Cleo and Six. It would be considered offensive if Black people threatened death on someone, then Black people on this board were bombarded with threads about Black people doing evil, and demands (yes, they are demands) for the Black members of VJ to explain/justify/apologize for the acts of others.

It wouldn't be long before a stop was put to that. For some reason, despite what should be against the TOS, it's not considered to be inappropriate for members to repeatedly demean Muslims and act as if we are all linked and responsible for each other. I don't believe that the VJ mods are acting in the best interest of the board to allow the piling on, but, it is happening and has been happening for days without much being done to control it.

This thread is not the first to single out Muslims to respond. To call Muslims "biased" or "defensive" because they are tired of being demeaned and singled out for derision and apologetics is what's blind. What's being said is that it's ok to do this to Muslim VJers because there is so much evidence against you, so you must prove to us that you are not like them. It's certainly is idiotic to tell someone how they should feel and respond to being thrown in with terrorists and low lives throughout the world, then asked" to explain, as if they are not first assumed to be a normal person with empathy or compassion because they are Muslim.

I've watched you go from thread to thread telling everyone what to think, how to post, as if traffic control is your responsibility. You know it's not. But, it's pretty weird to see you tell others what they should or shouldn't post while ignoring the fact that you post as you wish, even when wrong. Please rethink your attempt to impose your view of the situation on others and let people post an opinion, as they please. Until the mods do their job, everyone can, for better or worse.

Actually I do not impose my view on anyone I state facts based on what is posted and backed on it. Where you are correct is that I speak even handedly your opinion of me being wrong is nothing more than my opinion of being right until you show facts or I show facts.

But I do speak equally to everyone

Not saying I do not have my own biased views of other issues.

I point out that views of the muslim supporters are tinged such that even when a bigoted comment is made by another person who happens to be muslim or a supprter they make no claim to the bigoted comment and even defend it.

You say it is bigoted of me and others to question whether or not a morderate muslim supports act of terrorism; where is the bigotry?

How can one know if a person of the islamic faith supports an act of terrorism in the name of Islam if that person does not speak out. If a person of any faith chooses to remain silent then if a bad perception is formed regarding that religeon then they are partly to blame for their own actions or inaction as the case may be.

Your view points are as biased aa mine are in my religeon no one wants to talk about the bad stuff that happens.

Defensive it is human nature to be so and it shows in most postings.

You try to post all positive points of Islam and they are great posts.

But you and others readily dismiss the horrible actions of muslims or acts in the name of Islam by blaming others at fault, you did it too and say they do not represent Islam. With out facts that is Biased and the you did t too is no excuse.

http://news.yahoo.co...WRpY2FsaXNsYW0-

By KONSTANTIN TESTORIDES, Associated Press Writer – 17 mins ago

Moderate Muslims say the Wahhabi sect now controls five mosques in Skopje even though the Islamic Religious Community has suspended the man they claim is the sect's leader, Ramadan Ramadani, as imam of the Isa Beg mosque in Skopje, and prohibited him from organizing prayers.

But Ramadani, who has launched a petition seeking supporters to overturn the current Community leadership, rejects any accusation of radicalism, saying his opponents are scaremongering.

"They need my name to have somebody to frighten people," Ramadani said. "I do not know any individuals or structures here that could be defined as Wahhabi. It is the attempt of political labeling and stigmatizing people who want reforms."

Ramadani insisted that Macedonia's Islamic community had nothing to do with the online song supporting bin Laden, and denied Macedonian media reports that it had been played in mosques there.

"Bin Laden is nothing for the Muslims in Macedonia," Ramadani said. "He is not our hero."

I will not pretend to know the political struggles inside the Islamic Religeous Community.

But I can see how an Imam such as Ramadani may be subject to other entrenched Imams political attacks to avoid losing control. This type of politics happens every where.

I can also see Moderates who are trying to prevent radicalism among the faith and are taking action.

Don't be silly. It's a dumb question. Dumb. Stupid. Idiotic. Got it?

How would any reasonable person feel about someone being terrorized? Opinions to that effect can be sought out without the need to single out Muslim vjers. What is the purpose of targeting Muslims? It is meaningless.

Are Muslim vjers supposed to feel that they need to justify themselves to the satisfaction of biased individuals?

What is the point of this line of questioning?

Actually it is not a dumb question which shows your idiocy and blindness to actual issues affecting the world especially Muslims.

A Rdaical Muslim did something stupid and someone asked a reasonable questionabout how the Muslim VJ memebers felt about it.

The VJ memebers are not required to nor were they demanded to answer the question.

How would any reasonable person fell about being terroized? The question did not ask that so your reading comprehension needs to be addressed.

Again it is an open forum and the VJ memebers who are muslim and open about it nor the ones not open about it have no obligation to answer.

The question was regardig a memeber of their faith issuing a death threat/command regarding another person so soecifically it would matter what someone of that faith thought of such actions. It is also just as important their feeling on what the cartoonist did which IMO was insensiive and hurtful even though it was a political statment.

If you truly do not understand the point of the question then then hope is dwindling.

I really couldn't care less about baptists and know nothing of them. I think they like potato salad...yes? The denomination just came to mind, I am from Texas originally and there are bunches of Baptists there as I recall. I am completely un-religious and do not care what someone practices or doesn't practice in religion. The point was not about Baptists (for those on the left that don't understand) it was about parties controlling parts of our lives they have no business in.

I understand better now.

I thought you were refering to the ole Baptist comments out to 2 am drinking on Saturday and at Sunday school by 9am on Sunday.

BTW guilty here.

I want a Thermo nuclear Device

What racist comment? I didn't read the whole thread.

The fact remains that those who decry inequality because they can't call Obamas wife a monkey without being accused of racism are ignoring why that state of affairs exists on the first place. How is pointing that out racist, Evli? I'm really looking forward to seeing you dig yourself out of that particular hole.

Have at it.

The comment was in the post you quoted.

The point is you call anyone else a bigot that would use such terms to personally attack someone else or their family; in previous cases it is all about calling others Bigots when their point of view differs from yours or more recently muslims.

Specifically calling a black person Monkey is a racist comment you know this as does everyone else yet you avoided it in this situation because of sensitivity to IP from other topics in which you defend his/her point of view.

But if you want I can send you to a number of places here in the USA and you can call a black person a monkey and we will most likely never here from you again.

Now for your OLD WHITE comment it is in itself a bigoted comment your suggesting that it was only old white racist people in the white house or in congress.

The state of affairs does not exist because our president and family is black nor is it because the previous president or family was white nr if it remains will it matter if the presidents family is of any other ethnic origin.

To make racist comments when trying to debate or discus the state of affairs is garbage and prevents open dialogue as does to falsly accuse someone because their views differ with your own.

The OP is posting a graph which shows a correlation of the shift in poverty over the years that ports that was better during the Demo president years but ignoring the fact that during the most severe increases it was a demo majority congress.

Hole I see no stinking hole except the one your trying to climb out of.

I sense a theme. Republican bad, Democrat good.

####### for Tat

We're a representative democracy. Even the bigots and haters deserve representation. They are fortunate to have it in the form of a major political party. They are fortunate here in America; in most other countries they are relegated to the fringes.

Are you saying only the GOP is representing Bigots?

If so yo need to look back in history to see what party really represented Bigots ad still does.

Depends. If a grizzly bear has sex with a 5 year old human child, the human is likely the prey.

If an adult human had sex with a squirrel yes I'd agree the squirrel is the prey. However, if Danno were to have sex with a Neanderthal (not human) transported to our time via a time machine, I'd say that would be about even and possibly consensual.

I like the analogy.

I used the time machine bit and got laughed at.

There is no difference between Republicans and Democrats except which portion of our lives they want to have absolute control over. Democrats want to control what happens in your refrigerator, garage, doctors office (except your reproductive organs). Republicans want to control what happens in your bedroom, your reproductive organs (but otherwise they have no interest in medical care) They BOTH want to restrict your freedom of speech and Religion. Democrats would gladly stamp out Christianity while Republicans would stamp out everything but Baptists (Southern Convention) Democrats want to exploit illegal aliens for votes, Republicans want to exploit them for money...Democrats exploit LEGAL immigrants and citizens for money, they need NON taxpayers to vote for them.

Democrats want minimum wage, workers comp, health insurance, OSHA, Family and Medical leave...but only for white people. Otherwise do not check anyone's ID so they can be denied these things by business. Repub;licans just want all compensation to be minimal and profits maximized.

Repubicans are "pro-life" unless your "life" happens to be homosexual, Muslim (or other religion besides Baptist). Democrats are "Pro-choice" unless you want to choose what car you drive, school your kids you didn't abort go to, whether you want to own a gun, or listen to Rush Limbaugh.

They are all phoney-baloney politicians out for whatever they can get and speak to whoever is most likely to give it to them.

In Montana, that means making homosexuals criminals to get contributions. When we all stop paying for this nonsense, it will go away.

Gary you really have it out for the Baptist.

I stopped striking out you tirade.

Look I agree the Politicians have the same agenda to control us to do what they want. The differences in Demo and Repub is very slight.

Repubs like to take advantage of the chnages that the Dems do so much of the tme the only show face when before backing off an issue. The elite Dems are not nitwits they are very much Capitalists as well want nothin but profit with as little payout as possible.

I understand Danno's point about the consent laws where some are refusing to open their eyes to.

Montana trying to making Homosexual acts illegal is taking a huge step backwards in this society.

Oh, FFS. It's "Please BEAR with me!"

I really DO NOT want to see the two of you getting naked in the P&R forum

Why thanks for the correction even if your a bit over zealous about it.

just a correction we might be sexy when Baring it all.

and all this time i thought you was pooky bare.

You can thank old white racists for that.

And not a word about the racist comment that was made.

It reinforces that when you call others Bigots it carries no weight.

But you sure had to input your own racist view though.

I am not fo rthe Death sentence but if ever there was a reason for it this is it.

Another attempt by the so called "religion of peace" to quell freedom of speech.

I do not agree

The question did not suggest that nor did the answers given by the VJ peple asked.

The people trying to quell the question are not muslim but believe the are Muslim supporters with unbiased views.

So really anything they say regarding the question is moot.

No problem, we all get sarcastic at times, especially in a forum about religion and politics.

As for you receiving the truth from multiple sources and varying opinions might I make a suggestion? It is up to you if you are interested or not. But if you are sincerely interested in ME politics and history make a trip there and ask people from different neighborhoods, religions, and countries about the past, their opinions, and their experiences.....I promise they won't bite. Since for most people finances wouldn't allow such a trip try to visit a few predominately middle eastern neighborhoods (speak with christians, muslims, and make sure they are not all from the same country) and get your information from the people there. While history books and the internet are also great sources for information they are not always accurate and seldom do they show the full picture.

You mean like these life long friends of 20 + years and yes we have discussed , argued and debated these topics amongst ourselves since the 90's

for obvious reasons I left out last names and current places they live by the way all immigrated here and the youngest is in their 40's as well.

These are my sources as well.

Fawzi Lebanon

Syed india

Mehrdad Afganistan

Sonya & Shital India

Arash Iran

Ender and Yule Turkey

The question implies that Muslim vjers have some sort of responsibility for those who carry out terrorist acts. They don't.

It's the same old "where is the outrage" garbage. The fact is, there is outrage, but noone should feel obligated to provide some just to pander to the whims of bigoted individuals. Where does he get off asking questions like that?

The Muslim Vjers do not have any responsibility to you me or anyone else for any actions by anyone.

Knowing that there are decent people on VJ who happen to be of the Islamic faith allowed him a venue in which to poll a response from them if they so wished to answer the question polled.

Simply calling him a Bigot or anyone else is in fact if you wish report it a TOS violation on your part. I do not wish to report it because I think you are responding for what ever reason emotionally charged and not thinking clearly in most of your posts when callin gpeople bigots.

I myself have the same question as in if there is such a large outcry of these acts where is the proof not the media(you explain that as media biased no matter what source) not the internet ( why not they have access as much and there are billions of them that are supposedly outraged)

Possibly, it depends what you are actually saying. The way you worded it, that she is 'due' all that has happened to her I have taken to mean that she deserves to be persecuted for making a political statement, if that is so, then yes I profoundly disagree. If on the other hand you are saying she could have anticipated the possibility, that is different. Anticipating a bad reaction is not necessarily stupidity either. I do not consider for example Salman Rushdie stupid for writing and publishing The Satanic Verses, and I am sure he must have had an idea that that might have been the outcome. The fact is that the intent of these actions is not to degrade or demean the religion, but to highlight human frailty - something we all have in common. I happen to agree with TwoOwls on this one though that she was inept with her choice of action.

Cleo great explaination of your position. +1 on the post for a clear depiction of your position.

With all due respect. I don't have to do anything but be brown and die.

You forgot taxes.

There is no reason that I should be put in a position to be called out for defensiveness on this board because there should be nothing I have to answer for that I didn't do myself. For anyone here to insist that Muslims on this board answer to them for the actions of others in a bigoted act. It assumes that we can explain each other, like we are all the same somehow. It is very offensive and I don't accept that view of Muslims, nor do I feel obligated to jump thru hoops at anyone's command.

I am not calling you out it is what it is. even this post is a defensive post in regards to you thinking we are demanding you do something. It is being suggested that if Muslims wnat a better image of itself then it is up to them to make it happen as some are already doing.

You do not have to answer to VJers or anyone regarding the Islamic faith which is being colored by the actions of Muslims in the name of Islam or those acting out in the name of Islam.

Neither do non muslims which are being biased by these radcals.

So with all do respect if you want the world to be changed by people who will be biased by the actions of radical muslims or those commiting terror in the name of Islam then do not complain as laws turn againt Muslims. That is your right to do nothing.

I don't expect the world view of Islam to change because of anything I say, but if I say something, it should be my choice. No one is correct in demanding that I must respond to them or give them the answer they want to read. I'm not here to pander to anyone, especially people who have such bad manners. You teach people how to treat you, and I'm not teaching anyone to disrespect me.

Did I ask you to Pander to me?

I do believe silence, avoidance, non accpetance is a weakness and whether you express your views in the real world or not it is what it is.

Again your choice to remain silent but as the world changes and it is those speaking out and taking action that will mold the future.