Swimming_Upstream

And this FX vs F2A craziness wouldn't have happened if only all Green card (LPR) candidates included their spouses (and children) in their original applications as derivative beneficiaries.

So I believe this is how the system plays out. At the beginning of each fiscal year (October), Spouse applications start pouring in. Officials see that the Exempt category of FX is fresh, open with ~65,950 spots available (75% of 77% of 114,000). They start filling them in. By let's say around May of following year all 65,950 spots get filled up. Then they start the F2A category, with ~21,983 spots available, BUT with country limitations. No one country can get more than 7% of this 21,983 spots. So it's possible that the first 14 countries with the most Green card hungry applicants can theoretically fill out these spots (7% x 14 ~ 100%). If you are on the 15th country, you are out of luck,- unless there are some leftovers from other categories.

22 hours ago, Demise said:

Okay, explain in your own words what do you think this means.

This means that the FX category is an unnecessary privilege to certain spouses who are not restricted by any limits. This is done so that the category doesn't get jammed up like other categories (F1, F2B, F3, F4, E2, E3...), but at the same time they have the F2A category so that no single country can monopolize this category, and other countries can get a chance to squeeze through. 

But that's meaningless too. Here's how:
In May 2023 top FX and F2A receiving countries are listed below:

17 hours ago, African Zealot said:

Define fairness. This conversation is going nowhere. In my opinion and apparently based on evidence, the diversity from the 50,000 or so diversity applicants is more important and beneficial than bringing your adult children here. Why should we even bring your adult children here? They’re adults! They shouldn’t even be allowed to come at all except visit. Or we may as well bring your entire clan.

 

- In many cases (ref. F2B thread on Visa Journey) they are not bringing their adult children over here, those children were actually already here when the parents got their green cards. Chances are they got aged out when the green card happened. 
Now most of these "adult" students are paying tuition fees as foreigners, sometimes triple the amount they would have paid if they were in-state. They are not able to get jobs because the employer won't sponsor them.

15 hours ago, Demise said:

Okay I think you are really mis-naming some things here. Explain to me in your own words that you understand "FX" to be.

 

 

From DHS website: 

28 minutes ago, Ewan said:

I came to the US in 2021 on an IR5 parent visa. I am a self-employed, home-based contractor (I brought my work with me) and ALL of my income comes from OUTSIDE the US. On the contrary, ALL of my spending is done INSIDE the US. 
My earnings from foreign clients are paid into my US bank and are used to pay my income tax (the US gets all the taxes on my worldwide earnings), property, utilities, car insurance, food, leisure etc etc.
As well as that...

 

Being self-employed, I have to pay for my own health insurance and whatever part of my medical bills that I owe. I also am paying Social Security taxes but will not be eligible for Medicare until I have been paying in for 10 years, which will mean having to work until at least the age of 70.
Apart from the above, my daughter petitioned me and agreed to be responsible for me financially if I am unable to do so myself. 
So the impression given of immigrant parents as getting everything and giving nothing is way off course for me - and, I'm sure, for many other parents.

Yours is a success story and I greatly appreciate that. But let's consider for a moment those vast majority of IR5 visa recipients, out of about 30 thousand of them in the last three months, who may not have a similar story to share. Are we sure that many of them are not dependent on their children, or on the local/state/federal government in some shape or form?

33 minutes ago, Demise said:

The reason for this is two fold:

Keeps the queue moving if you can just grab use the FX country-cap exempt. Country reserved F2s keep one country from causing backlogs elsewhere. What decides this? Literally what's available and then just random chance. Like you are really complaining about something random and inconsequential.
- Not clear what you are trying to say here. This random chance is not inconsequential. In the last three months (March to May, 2023 total 19 thousand plus FX visas were issued, where as only 6.9 thousand E3 visas were issued. 

 

Like let me take a step back - the thing you thought was FX does not exist. For EB-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, DV Lottery, F3, F4 (and for children also F1, F2A, and F2B), a spouse or child would generally just tag along on the same petition as the principal and be charged to that quota. Could the principal move first and start an F2A process for their spouse? Sure but that's a waste of time and really only happens in cases where one can't be married (IR, F1, F2B), where sure the son/daughter would immigrate to US, go marry their SO, and start off an F2A for them.

8 hours ago, African Zealot said:

Most countries have done away with family unification visas except for children and spouses. The USA 🇺🇸 policy is an anachronism. Why should my brother be allowed to migrate here because I did? He has a totally separate life. 
 

Spouses and children should be it. 

USA policy is an anachronism is saying it mildly. The system here is intentionally convoluted 🙂

7 hours ago, mam521 said:

If you are indeed Canadian, I'm embarrassed that that flag is on your profile.  These comments come off as ignorant and poorly researched.  You sound butt hurt that you've had to take a number and stand in line like the rest of us.  

 

I originally entered the US on a L1 visa.  I spent 5 years in the US, earning a 6 figure income, bought a house, got involved in my community, enrolled my children in school.  I found my now husband, fell in love and got married.  We opted for a marriage based green card because we wanted the flexibility of me being able to move employers, rather than my employer applying and me having to sign a contract to stay with them for X amount of time.  

 

I reentered the US permanently on an IR-1.  Our immigration journey took over 600 days and because of the long wait, we "graduated" from a CR to an IR category.  I had to uproot my kids from their family home (remember - I bought a house, so contributor to the economy), from their school (the District that my taxes pay for) and leave the country for 18 months so as to prevent a visa overstay.  Luckily, my employer was able to transfer me back to Canada on a temporary basis.  So, get the idea of spousal visas taking no time at all out of your head.  They, like everything else immigration related, take time, patience and money.

 

Additionally, the idea of a spouse not being a contributor to the economy is bunk.  I have always been a top income earner in the US, paid my taxes and contribute through consumerism to the US economy.  I wasn't desperate for a green card.  I lived my life and happened to meet my life partner along the way, no different to a student who might meet their future partner while completing graduate studies might.  You don't put your life on pause because you're studying or working.  

 

Immigrants are massive drivers of the economy, irrespective of whether they come as family members or education vetted individuals.  The system is broken for many reasons - some of the educated people you elude to end up in the US, unable to work because the system is broken and their qualifications aren't recognized here.  Others are blue collar, skilled workers who are perfectly content to do the work "entitled locals" don't want to do because they are willing to hustle and when these people become successful, locals get their noses out of joint because "the immigrants are stealing our jobs". 

 

I'd be more inclined to argue why are people allowed to renew their PR indefinitely if they are in the US - if it's so good, why aren't those people willing to get their citizenship?  

Well, here is the source of "Research": https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-statistics/immigrant-visa-statistics/monthly-immigrant-visa-issuances.html

As I mentioned in previous replies, the time line was for IR1/CR1 applicants who are already in the US, and just needs to do an adjustment of status.
 
Your case is the exception, and for every such case, there are multiple other cases where the applicant actually had no other choice but was forced to use IR1 as a last resort. 

Immigrants are massive drivers of the economy, there is not shred of doubt about that. The point is, how is this visa allocation system working here? Is it a just system, fair to all applicants? Certain groups are not subject to any limitations, quotas, whereas other groups are having to wait indefinitely. 

7 hours ago, beloved_dingo said:

F2B - 21+ children of LPR

F1 - 21+ children of US citizens

These are 2 of the categories listed in your first post. How is a child over 21 "brought up/educated in the U.S."? They wouldn't need a visa to the U.S. at that age if they were raised here.
- They were mostly school aged children when their parents came to the US for the first time, may be on an employment or other temporary visa. By the time their parents got green card, the children are aged out, or became over 21.

 

And are we just ignoring the countries that have education on par or even better than the U.S.?
- Wondering which countries those might be?
 

8 hours ago, Sm1smom said:

Saying DV selectees are not required to have ANY experience or qualifications clearly demonstrates a bias and a complete lack of understanding of what this visa category entails. Taking due diligence to research this would have provided the much needed background information as against coming out to make some generalized unsubstantiated claim. 
 

A quick google search (with the right parameters) will easily bring up stories of some past DV selectees, their experiences/qualifications prior to being selected, and how they have and continue to contribute to the US economy. Links to a couple of those stories can be found below, by the way:

https://sites.psu.edu/jlia/story-of-menike-a

7 hours ago, African Zealot said:

Most countries have done away with family unification visas except for children and spouses. The USA 🇺🇸 policy is an anachronism. Why should my brother be allowed to migrate here because I did? He has a totally separate life. 
 

Spouses and children should be it. 

diversity-visa-lottery-winner/

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/31/582240533/science-teacher-shares-his-journey-after-winning-the-green-card-lottery

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/04/reader-center/diversity-visa-lottery.html

 

https://www.9news.com.au/national/diversity-visa-program-aussies-living-american-dream-after-lottery-win-green-card-exclusive/db3def5d-451c-4d95-a2bc-aa0f5d9ac671

 

As a disclaimer, this is not to say all DV selectees have been high achievers or had illustrious careers/backgrounds like the ones described in the above articles, however the flat out claim about DV not requiring  any qualification or experience whatsoever is unconscionable IMO. 
 

 

Thanks for your response! The success stories above are great. But none of the stories talk about how they needed to demonstrate their qualifications or experience to get those visas. By definition this "lottery" helped them realize their American dream (according to their statements).

8 hours ago, Demise said:

You severely misunderstand something. FX and F2A are the same thing. It's just that 75% of those numbers are exempt from per country quotas (not numerical limitations) and can be charged to any country (FX), while the other 25% fall under the 7.1% rule (F2). In all reality the only reason you'd even know it exists is because F2A for Mexico sometimes gets a tiny backlog at the tail end of the FY. But other than that, no you can't go into the consulate or USCIS and tell them give me an F21/F26 and not an FX1/FX6, they will give you whatever is available.

- The question still remains: Why are there two categories, and why do we need FX? Can't all of them be under one category of F2A? Who decides who gets FX and who does not?
 

Now wait until I tell you that most people get their citizenship by being born here, now look at somewhere like Kentucky and tell me that's a good idea.

9 hours ago, JeanneAdil said:

every spouse CR1/IR1  i know is working, paying taxes,  some buying a house ,   and helping family back home which should count to help the world's poverty

IR1 fast / by definition an IR1 takes over 2 years /mine took 5,,  Nordeines'  took 7  and a officer for immigration waited 5 years with 13 trips to get her husband here
- The time line of 9 - 12 months for IR1 was meant for those applicants who are already in the US on a different temp visa. 

and yeah,  people divorce but many USC's divorce other USC's  /there is no handbook for marriage and no guarantee's

IR5?  if USC can afford to sponsor family ,  then great  

they use medicaid????   illegals can get and use medicaid /legal  sponsorship means you have to  show you have researched health care costs and are able to purchase a plan

 

dv lottery is an agreement the US government has with countries so ask your Congresspeople how this benefits the US

 

even illegals contribute to the US work system working the chicken slaughter houses (here) and as  migrant farm workers 

ask a USC whose out of work if he /she would do this
- All good points, but why should we invite migrant farm workers to apply for green card, and then hurry up and process their applications faster, whereby people in other categories are waiting longer than 8 years...

 

My rant!    the K1 only needs $18,310 for 2 and how do 2 people live on that especially in NYC or Miami?

9 hours ago, Lil bear said:

My only comment on this thread

 

The health wellbeing and quality of life of individual, families, communities and the nation cannot be measured by an economic equation 😓

 

Ah, happiness. Finland, Denmark, Iceland have no way to compete with USA.

5 hours ago, EmilyW said:

Good thing then, that DV Lottery recipients do help the economy, because we have no choice but to make the most of opportunity.  We landed on a cold night with very little besides suitcases and money in the bank, and definitely no welcoming committee.   DV recipients have to prove they have the education, means, health and clean criminal record before they are granted a visa.  Not sure the education part is covered with familial visas.  Indeed, sure it is not.

 

We don't have the benefit of having a spouse whose financial situation allows us to not contribute economically.  If DV Lottery recipients were as reliant on US citizens as chain immigration is, the program would end in a heartbeat.

 

Thankfully, the US welcomes people like me and my family.  A huge - potentially unique - advantage over most, if not all, countries.

Agree to all the points you made! But just think for a second, is it fair to 21+ children of US citizens and Permanent Residents, who are having to queue up for 8+ years and still no signs of the line moving? Whereas the DV applicants are cutting into the top of the line and getting their visas processed within a reasonable time frame?
 

5 hours ago, PeachesMagee said:

I love to read the posts on this forum, and rarely post...but here I go.

 

I'm a CR1 beneficiary, and the bread winner in my home. My wife doesn't work, and is trying to get her disability.

I didn't need to come to the US and get my citizenship, as I had a great job for the federal government, a beautiful 100 year old home, and a vehicle. Not to mention my family is in Canada.

But love makes us do strange things, like uprooting our lives and moving countries.

Had I not moved to the US, my wife would be a burden of the state, maybe on assistance, and probably living in a very small apartment.

Instead, I have a great job, a beautiful 2 bedroom condo, 2 cars, and two cats.

Had I stayed in Canada, I'd still be successful (job, home, vehicle).

Was my path here a shortcut? Heck no. It took me about 5 years from start to finish, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

 

As an F1 visa holder, if you fell in love with an American, would you not try to stay in the US? Some might argue that you should have to go home, and start from scratch (K1 or CR1), or you'd also be taking a shortcut to immigrate.

Me...I'd just be happy for you.

 

I am happy for you as well. You are definitely one of the success stories. But what's happening with a lot of other IR1 cases? It's NOT those applicants fault that they are taking advantage of the system. They are actually being forced to take advantage of IR1/CR1. Why? Because all other legal avenues for them are jammed up by country quotas, numerical limits etc. The wait lists for them are getting longer every year, and the priority dates are retrogressing (going backwards!) in some cases. 

4 hours ago, mari04 said:

DV lottery assures diversity, which is absolutely necessary to retain world economic leadership. The statement that diversity does not bring economic prosperity is the most ignorant out of all.
- The logic stated in the original post is being flipped here. What was originally mentioned in one of the follow ups is that there is no guarantee that diversity will definitely improve the economy. It may still do so, but DV is not the only source of diversity in the US. Children of LPR's, employment based applicants all come from diverse background.

How many technical or biotech companies are started by white Christian Americans in US? Nearly zero. Most of the companies are started by 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. What % of US Nobel Prize laureates are white American Christians? Almost none. THINK. 
- So are all the inventors and entrepreneurs coming from Diversity visa background? I would bet that they actually were students at US universities first, then switched to employment visas and then finally to green card.
 

3 hours ago, Redro said:

I wouldn’t call it controversial. I’d call it ill-informed. The belief the Diversity Visa doesn’t have a cap
- Cap on Diversity visa was not mentioned!

and Diversity Visa applicants do not have to be educated
- Nothing to do with education of Diversity visa applicants!

being the most egregiously incorrect statement. 
And then staying adult brothers and sister of US citizens have one of the fastest processing times…
- Also not stated. It was listed as one of the groups that are getting higher number of visas compared to F1, F2B, E2, E3 etc.

 

I’m mostly trying to understand where OP got their “facts”. 
- Here is the source of all immigrant visas issued, by month: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/visa-statistics/immigrant-visa-statistics/monthly-immigrant-visa-issuances.html

And here is the summary for the last three months:

36 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

If you are only taking issue with the timing/restrictions of certain visas, why do the skills and/or benefit to the U.S. economy matter? Children of U.S. citizens/LPRs are not more likely to be skilled/educated/whatever than spouses, siblings, or parents. 

In general, Children of US citizens/LPR's are being brought up/educated in the US, hence more likelihood of being successful in the US. Other groups may or may not educate/train themselves.

8 minutes ago, Redro said:

So, you’re saying all F1 students who marry a USC are committing immigration fraud? They are not marrying for love but because they want to stay in the US?

If you are aware of this- you should report it. VJ does not condone immigrant fraud and they have who to contact on the main page. 

Good to know, thanks! So we are rest assured that there is no immigration fraud going on whatsoever in the US system.

1 hour ago, Crazy Cat said:

How does that, in any way, support the statement that "Typically people become so frustrated from either (1) not getting sponsorship from their employers, or (2) waiting for too long in one of the other categories, that they are left with no other choice but to go for IR1/CR1. ?

So that's the back story: once those students are unable to get sponsorship from their employers, and not able extend their stay, they face deportation. For sure, some students leave. But those desperate to stay in the US resort to IR1/CR1, or look for other options.
And for "waiting too long in other categories", F1, F2B are some of the examples. The situation for them is getting worse by the month, their priority dates are not moving for 2+ years and in some cases are actually going backwards. Imagine their frustration...

31 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

First of all, "unskilled" workers are just as important to the economy as "skilled" workers. If companies were full of C Suite executives and had no entry level/blue collar positions, they'd fail pretty fast. 
- Agreed, but do you need to invite entry level / blue collar candidates to apply for green card and then process their applications at a much faster rate?

 

Next, you can't categorize whether someone will "benefit" the American economy just based on their immigration category, but even if you could, are you saying that a woman who immigrates through marriage and becomes a stay at home mom while her spouse works, has no value? That, because she does not have a job, she should have less priority even though she is the spouse of a U.S. Citizen? 
- The point was to find out why the "Exempt" spouse categories were treated separately on "Fast Track".

 

Does an illegal immigrant who works and pays taxes have more value than the parent of a U.S. Citizen who immigrates legally and retires?
- No they do not. An immigrant can work and pay taxes legally but don't have to have a green card for that. 

 

The value of a person, immigrant or not, should not be tied directly to their skills or productivity. If it is, that leads down an ugly road. 
- The purpose is to point out the injustices being done to certain categories of visa applicants (A-D) by denying them a timely processing, whereas certain other categories (1-4) are not facing restrictions like numerical limit or country limit.

7 hours ago, Lemonslice said:

Some might be "unqualified" workers, whatever that means in your opinion... However, a lot of job postings around here are for level entry positions, so, seems like there's a need for workers with all levels of qualification. 

 

...

Part of my personal opinion is that I don't think everything has to be seen through economics glasses. Rest of my opinion, I'll keep to myself.

Current system is such that applicants in the first group of categories (Parents, DV, exempt Spouses) are not required to have ANY experience or qualifications, but their visas are getting processed much faster than others. 

4 hours ago, Crazy Cat said:

Please show me the data to support that statement.  

An extensive research is not done on the topic, but that's from the experience of foreign student communities. A typical Post graduate foreign student will start work on OPT, and hopefully convince the employer to apply for H1b on their behalf. H1b is/was subject to annual lottery, so it's a hit or miss. Even if they get it for 3 years, they have to convince the employer again to sponsor them for green card. Unless the employer is a large corporation (Google, Apple, Microsoft etc.) it's hard to get them to sponsor for an average candidate. Once the OPT or H1b time limit is over, their out of luck...

4 hours ago, Redro said:

Am I understanding your question correctly? 

So, you are comparing:

1. IR5 - Parents of US citizens

2. DV - Diversity Visa

3. IR1 - Spouse of US citizens

4. FX - Spouse of lawful permanent residents (exempt from country quota limitations)

5. F4 - Siblings of US citizens

TO

A. IR2 - Children of US citizens

B. F2B - 21+ children of LPR

C. F1 - 21+ children of US citizens

D. E2, E3 - Employment based

And list number ONE is  most subscribed (and that is bad) but applicants from list number TWO should be prioritized?

 

Yes. There is good reason for it, if you compare the current priority dates in visa bulletin, and compare the number of people getting their visas processed between the two groups.

9 hours ago, OldUser said:

How do immigrants benefit US economy?

 

In my opinion, here is the minimal list:

 

Income taxes

Property taxes

Sales taxes

Purchases / services from local businesses

Supporting banking system by using credit and spending. More people translates into more spending, benefiting economy.

 

Also, how does staying / not staying in marriage change benefit to the US from all of those streams above? Why does it matter whether immigrant is skilled or not in the grand scheme of things? There's tons of unskilled job positions open that many US citizens won't take due to low pay. There's also no shortage of skilled immigrants coming to the US taking high paying jobs.

 

Sure, Immigrants benefit the economy. But the topic is , who is being given priority? Most people in the first group (1-4) have no numerical limits and so the only delay is the procedural delay. Whereas people in the second group (B-D) have numerical or country based limits, which is forcing them to wait 8+ years just to become current.

And of course there are tons of unskilled job positions open. But for those jobs do we really need to invite green card applications from foreigners with no numerical limitations and higher priority? Isn't a work permit system that can be renewed every 3 or 5 years a better option?