yabasta

By the way the pictures were from Reuters including the one you dismissed as if it was made by the website or something. The website includes sources aswell. You can dismiss any media of course but at least read the page and perhaps ask yourself why they need to be immune to Iraq law?

Looks like a leftist conspiricy website to me thus it is NOT a valid source. I see 2 pictures and a bunch of nice bomb making materials in a tiled room with a computer in the background.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/ENGLISH/?id=14566

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...n=theworld&col=

These two RELIABLE sources think differently.

How do you decide which sources are reliable and which are conspiracy sites? Obviously the mainstream doesn`t tell the truth 100% of the time. You don`t think it does do you?

As far as special operations go, my uncle was in special operations as well as the FBI and 2 of my best friends are in Spec Ops. One is intel and one is operations.

So how come you know nothing of the kind of special operations that are involved in special operations?

Your statements are baseless because they defy logic. What you are stating is that the Americans are behind the insurgency. That is BASELESS and ILLOGICAL.

Again please use examples otherwise you are simply flaming me as it were.

My military statements are NOT weak because I stated the duties of a soldier, and you yourself said they are contradictory, and that you didnt understand my point of view. You dont get it because you dont know what it is like to be a soldier. Clear enough?

Sorry but you are not clear. What exactly are you referring to?

BTW what is that last comment "Also in your case 'marines' (BTW its capitalized) won't kill other Americans a lot of the time they dont have to as the deaths are more often than not civilian deaths" mean?

I mean simply that a lot of these "suicide attacks" actually kill civillians and therefore your "marines would not kill other marines" statement is really not the point. I do wonder however what kind o fperson can murder human beings but not "american" human beings. Very odd.

Finally, seeing one thing, and applying it to other things is called "comparison and reasoning."

comparisons are fine but as i said not really relevant directly.

Thanks for playing.

This is not a game. I know you want to fight and win here but i am simply stating my views. i am not sure why you have this need to "beat" me but i don`t think you have beaten me as the losers here are human beings dying(on both sides).

So thanks for trying to make it a game about YOU.

Indonesia is another country struggling with islamic militants,

Another country and therefore not really one that can be wedged in on this topic. It is best to stick to one topic. They may be linked in your mind but it is like talking about American operations in Vietnam, yes it is linked in a way but not really fair to brand the insurgency in Iraq as being the same as these "al qaeda" beheadings and if you are going to make such a link it is a stretch to include Indonesia events.

Secondly, islamic extremists are not extremists because of 'carpet bombing'. They are a result of hate being teached by radical imams.

What exactly gives you the authority to speak on this topic? How do you know what causes extremism? Would it not be safe to say that such extremism, even if it existed before the invasion or iraq was certainly boosted by Iraq? That seems a logical link to me.

Expanding the discussion, explain the following for me:

9/11- Cause and why?

Madrid- Cause and why?

Bali- Cause and why?

London- Cause and why?

Well that is like please explain the universe to me? Kind of a big topic to put within another topic on a small message board. Also it would require me to know thigns that not many people know. What exactly do you expect me to explain?

The CIA did NOT behead Nick Berg. If they did, why did Al Qaeda take credit for it? See, I don't think that one should blindly follow the government, yet at the same time, defying logic is worse.

Do you not see how Al Qaeda serves the purpose of the invasion?

The thing that makes radical islam SO dangerous is that they are not afraid to die.

In their twisted mind, blowing up a crowded market, night club, subway station, etc. = paradise with X number of virgins.

You just showe dhow you think that way too though. You must win for your family and they win for ##### although not if they are strict muslims i don`t think but as you said you are a soldier.

Why do you think SO many are suicide bombers?

As i said i think many are not really suicidal and those that are are just resorting to effective means for their families. They are just like you "fighting to win".

blowing up civilians defies logic.

So why do pretty much all armies do it?

Al-Qaeda and the other insurgent groups know that we are winning. Every insurgent killed, every ammunition dump found, and every IED disarmed saves lives.

No you already WON. Bush declared it as soon as his big check cleared i think. The war is over. Winning a losing battle.

If the terrorists are truly 'freedom fighters' as you say, what are the Iraqi police and Iraqi National Guard members who are dying every day for their people?

I don`t recall saying that they were freedom fighters. I believe Al Qaeda are different to insurgents and yes you have people who want to join the empire of course so the police will have willing recruits. In many ways though it is probably a case of "what else can i do to feed my family"? The same reason many people do shitty jobs. Nobody said that all Iraqi people have that fight in them to resist invading troops either.. Wars happen TO people.

First off, the secret service men acting as insurgents is the most rediculous thing I have EVER heard, and I find it insulting. A group of U.S. military men would NEVER murder other American soldiers. How do I know? Because I am a former Marine, my uncle is a retired army officer, my parents are retired air force officers, my grandfathers were in the navy, and about 80% of my friends are in the military.

Military servicemen do not kill eachother.

So how many of your relatives were in special forces units? Do you really expect people to believe that men trained to kill are not capable of killing? I didn`t even say U.S. but you assumed that bit although it would not suprise me. There seems to be a little bit of a misunderstanding that you have. You seem to see one thing and apply it to other things.

Thirdly, I believe we were punched in the nose when 19 terrorists killed thousands of my countrymen.

You are making a bunch of statements with NO base, NO evidence, and that are far from logical.

Like what have i said you disagree with? Being vague is rather pointless.

Perhaps the reason you do not understand my views is because you have never been in the military. I was against the invasion, but hey, soldiers dont start wars, politicians do. It was my job as a Marine to WIN. I know military tactics, I know military strategy, and I know how to defeat the enemy.

Well i have had this ####### argument given to me before. What difference does it make if i was in the military? I am well aware that soldiers do not start wars. I am well aware that they are there to fight and die in wars. The reason i have never been in the military is because i want to dife fighting for what i value and not for what somebody who won`t even be fighting with me wants. the whole i was in the military issue is just a poor attempt at qualifying yourselves above others to speak on a topic.

However, thanks for the visit to the twilight zone. I'm so at awe by your far reaching, baseless statements that I dont know what to say, because I know you wont get it.

I won`t get what exactly? baseless statements? I would like you to at least tell me what you think is baseless and far reaching? It stands to reason that a suicide attack is ultimately going to be a waste of your resources as a soldier and if you are going to be a suicide bomber then why not go out with a bigger bang as it were? Many suicide bombs could as easily be secret service planted bombs. Also in case your "marines" won`t kill other Americans a lot of the time they don`t have to as the deaths are more often than not civillian deaths.

http://www.blogigo.co.uk/socialdemocracynow/200509

3) Is there another reason for the fake video I haven't considered?

Did you ever consider that Nick Berg died and they (CIA or Al Qaeda or whoever) simply used this fortune to make a video? Maybe it was easier to direct if he were dead already?

No, because in the beginning of the video he is clearly alive. Now I suppose that they could have shot the beginning of the video while he was alive, and then shelved the project because it wasn't quite what they wanted, and then later after he died of natural causes while in captivity they mutilated his body in the second part of the film-

but, that is really more to my point in the second scenario. So what if he was already dead? What is the difference? They put this film together to horrify people and they clearly intended for people to think they slaughered a living person on the film, and indeed later his body was found with head unattached.

Sorry like i said i have not seen the video i was just offering a possible explanation which it seems is not possible. I was at no point defending the making of the video by any means. The point is however that we don`t really know who killed Berg and if it was "terrorists" how do we know who? Also how do we then justify dropping bombs on people who chances are didn`t have anythign to do with the video. that is the real point here. The video is obviously made for the purpose of terror and it seems to work.

I am still waiting on my details fromt he emabssy regarding my medical. I need to arrange it myself i know but i wanted to read the packey 4 first. I just feel the interview is close and so i wondered how soon it usually takes?

thanks in advance.

3) Is there another reason for the fake video I haven't considered?

Did you ever consider that Nick Berg died and they (CIA or Al Qaeda or whoever) simply used this fortune to make a video? Maybe it was easier to direct if he were dead already? I have not seen the video so can`t comment on what it shows really. I have no desire to see the video just as i do not look at the photos of torture that come out. Does nothing for me. If we assume the video is real it is of course not at all pleasant even with my scenario it is low. So the issue is boiled down to invasion and reaction to that invasion. We invaded for either Oil/WMD`s or 9/11. The offical line seems to claim bringing democracy to Iraq but that is just as crazy as the KKK bringing racial harmony to the world.

How about these girls in Indonesia?

Indonesia?

that's quite alright, i have a difficult time taking you seriously with your flower child outlook on life. btw, be careful about the emoticon addicts, you might tick off more people than you realize. war does unite people, and it divides people. it also has solved more issues in human history than you realize. ask the city of hiroshima.

We disagree on war which is hardly suprising since we disagree on the military. War is a negative way to unite people. Obviously i say that as an advocate for peace and all those sorts of negative values. How do i ask Hiroshima anything? what exactly was solved? The people to ask would be the dead or deformed?

as terry nichols is not a country, the same could be said for most of the terrorists, can it not? they are not "iraq" and most are from different countries (zarqawi was from jordan).

No he was not Iraqi but presumably the official story of Zaqawi was that he was fighting for the people of Iraq in the same way that Che Guevara was not Cuban. If Terry Nichols had been bombing for a more popular cause then of course he would have more support and it would be more dangerous for the state to murder him. As it stood most people either had that weird glee at his death or they were simply not really bothered what happened to Nichols. Zaqawi would in theory have support from all those who did not like being invaded by foreign troops. They would perhaps be united in their distaste for the invading forces even if they did not agree with him 100%.

why did france make such an uproar about the usa going into iraq? because they had their hands in the pie selling weapons to saddam. many countries were doing shady deals with saddam, think about that for a while.

Yes America and Britain also. It is called the arms trade. British aerospace sells torture devices abroad which are illegal in the U.K. It is call capitalism. Saddam was backed by the U.S. too and so naturally you must see the irony when we bang on about WMD`s as if we A: don`t have them ourselves and B: didn`t supply them to the world. If you sell a bomb you surely expect it to be used don`t you?

that you are a human being is not in dispute. what is in dispute is what is your solution to iraq? shaking your head? hand wringing? proposing we sit down and talk with whoever? those won't work..... we have two cultures at opposite extremes. radical muslims want nothing more than to see the usa, and every american, dead. got it? now taking that into account, what plausible solution is there?

I have not offered up a solution to Iraq as i don`t think it is my business to come up with one. You see I don`t live in Iraq so how can i know the culture or have any idea what is best for the people there. I am pretty sure they don`t want America or Britain there. One idea would perhaps be to pull out. As a child it seemed like a good idea to me that the troops leave Ireland and then London would not be bombed. It is a absic solution of course but if you take violent acts out of the equation you lessen the ammoutn of violence. The best results from hostage situations are the ones where people are talked out of their actions and not violent ends. You seem to give violence too much credit. I don`t think Violence has solved anything. It just simplifies complex situations. Saying Hiroshima was a solution is like saying the WTC attack handled the problem of cleaning the thousands of windows.

oh i'm fully awake. and yes, killing 1, or 1,000,000 will work. it's called attrition, simple math. which, as you say, is basic common sense. militant radicals are created by weakness, because they know they can get away with it. why didn't you see such in saddam's reign? because he would have, and did, squash them like a bug. as for the stupid remark about "for a military man..." i'll just ignore that, as you have no clue about the military as previously proven.

I have no clue? Meaning i have a different view to you. Militant Radicals are created by your war mentality. They are created by carpet bombing. They are created by the U.S. government(both literally and indirectly). Why didn`t you see an uprising under Saddam? Well i see the uprising as an indication of the bad situation.

buy? it's basic deductive reasoning. no wonder you can't understand it.

The fact that you don`t see any PR at all here says it all. You really do just accept everything given to you don`t you? Nothing about this seems convenient? To you it is just our good ole military Intelligence at ti`s best. Of course we will never find out how they knew any of htis as that is classified.

Where is your deductive reasoning though? Fair enough you buy the story but what have you done to reach this decision?

you're hardly one to correct spelling errors, einstein. and no he was not.

and here's one smiley just for you

Spelling is not a subjec ti am bad on. I can`t type for ###### i admit. My point was that not only are you American and a pro war Republican but you made a big deal about Military people being smart. Yet you can`t even spell an ex president`s surname. I point it out for irony. Also what has Einstein go tto do with spelling? He is known for his brain yes but it seems an odd comparison to use in that instance.

So you don`t think Reagan had any dealings with "freedom fighters"? You don`t think Reagan had any external influence on his presidency? Do you think the hostage crisis just happened to end when it did?

Your argument has one HUGE flaw, and some little ones. Your formula for 500 replacements is based that the original 100's brothers and friends feel the same way. These people are fighting for their religion and twisted ideology and they are not afraid to die.

My formula was not meant to be scientific but more a bit of food for thought. The number could be more or less of course. The fact is however that a lot of these murdered "terrorists" are not "terrorists" at all but just portrayed by media that way. If you kill an arab man and say he was a terrorist it is easy to convince people who do not know him. If you kill a 2 year old it is a little harder to sell that he was a jihad toddler. We are of course never given proof of crimes as it is "war" and hence the rules do not apply.

These people are fighting for religion? Who says? Religion is not the only reason for people to be resisting occupation. I doubt it is even the main reason.

I don't consider myself right wing, and if you had read this thread as you say, you would have noted in my first post that I don't like Bush, and I don't think that we should have attacked Iraq. HOWEVER, since we are there, we must win.

You may not consider yourself right wing. I am honestly not one to label. If you think i was talking about you though then you were obviously seeing yourself in what i said and then your views were obviously right wing to me.

I did read this whole thread(maybe skimmed a few posts here and there). I recall what people say but i can`t always recall who says what. I respond to what you say and i do not respond to who or what you say you are. I don`t care if you support Bush or Kerry or Nadar or Michael Moore`s ficus tree. I will respond to your viewpoints not your affiliations alone. I don`t understand your views on Iraq. sorry i just don`t. If you don`t think we should be there then surely we can not win. How do you see a victory for either side? If America withdraws it means they have what they wanted. If America is crushed it means there is simply a new sheriff and i am sure nobody expects America to lose in that respect. Invading Iraq involves the deaths of both innocent civilians and the innocence of the troops sent to invade. Invading and then continuing to make the region unstable is not going to do any good for anybody so how will you win by staying?

I do not want to destroy the middle east or the world as you say, the opposite is the fact, and I want the middle east to prosper. However, that means JOINING THE REST OF THE WORLD IN THE 21ST CENTURY! It also means jailing anyone who preaches hate in your country.

So you wish to impose your ideas on others? How will they join the rest of the world when the rest of the world is dropping bombs on them? If i punched you and said join my gang would you really want to join? I know if you punched me i would punch you right back. If i had no arms i would kick you. See what i am saying?

The draconian decapitations and murder of civilians is TOTALLY intolerable in this day and age. Do you honestly think that you would be spared because you voted for Kerry in 2004? HA!

I don`t vote. I am also not American.

Tell me why 9/11 happened Yabasta? Did we buy too much oil from the middle east thus allowing them to buy too many cars? Or is it because they are pissed we invented the internet before they did?

OR, is it because we help save Israel from annihilation and they can't stand it because Israel is a Jewish nation? Top that off with bikinis, women having sun tans, and the adult film industry and guess what: WE ARE THE GREAT SATAN!

Stop decieving yourself and look at why these things happen.

My views on 9/11 are not relevant to this really. I don`t think it was Al Qaeda at least not as we know al qaeda. If the official story is correct i don`t think that Al Qaeda and the insurgency is the same thing though. The beheading videos are designed to help demonise the Iraq people who are simpyl standing up for themselves. Also there is evidence to suggest that secret service men are operating in Iraq as insurgents. The issue is much more complex than people seem to think. It certainly seems that way anyway. Acting like satan is naturally going to give you that image. I think however that your average person realises the difference between American and American soldier on duty. If you just visit a country dressed in army gear you might be considered a damn tourist but if you are there on business you will probably been seen negatively. Best way to fight such an image is to act better maybe.

I don`t deceive myself. I am not the pro war anti invasion one.

They need to adopt your ideals and realize the ignorance of THEIR actions and the reprocussions. Zarqawi did.

Well surely they were following your lead? and how do you claim to speak for Zaqawi?

and yet the anti war lobby does not say dumb things?

I can not take emoticon addicts too seriously but yes it is no doubt true that some anti war folks might say some dumb things but i can`t think of any that i have seen. Even if they do say anything dumb at least their hearts are in the right place. War simply is not going to ever unite people unless you count uniting against a common enemy perhaps which is not real unity.

and you're guilty of the same thing with that math. given such, why did we not have to exterminate every german in ww2? every japanese? if you wish to argue that the situation was different then, then take for example terry nichols - why didn't his relatives "join his cause" afterwards?

Well i think Terry Nichols is hardly the same is it? Terry Nichols is not a country and his "cause" is not really known by most. All i can learn from the whole affair is that something fishy went down. As for WW2 there are still remnants of that war today. The reason that entire nations were nto wiped out is because the war ended. There is never going to be a ceasefire declared in this type of war is there? There is no leader because they are fighting for their land and not just for their boss. It is the mistake of Vietnam all over again. What do they have to lose that will not be taken away by America anyway? The only result of this conflict is more death.

your statement is not the least bit surprising, and highly uninformed again. i could flip the coin and say the left wing solution is peace and brotherhood with everyone of different views (and we both know how unrealistic that is).

Always funny when the best argument a person can come up with is that their opponents are for "peace and brotherhood". Such horrible vlues i know. I am not really big on calling myself left wing though as i don`t buy into that ######. I am a human being above all else.

as is ignorance of no actions. as ronald reagen once said, the usa was never attacked because it was too strong. when do you plan on waking up and realizing that in dealing with militant radicals, there is only one solution?

Well you need to wake up and realise that killing one man or 1000000 men will not make the world more peaceful. It is basic common sense. Militant radicals are created by the actions you advocate. USA was never attacked because they beat people to the punch and then funded both sides of conflicts that they created. For a military man you are not very informed about how the military actually works it would seem.

oh yeah, funny that our intelligence network actually works eh?

is his name "terrorist temporary" by any chance?

You really buy that stuff? and you call me a crazy conspiracy nut? ha funny.

btw it is Reagan and he was working for and with militant radicals.

I have looked into this and found a site that shrink wraps your boxed stuff on pallets and then puts them in containers. They charge by the volume and it was like 600 quid for 2 cubic metres and that was the minimum. I might check out this other place though.

The pro war lobby on this site are saying some really dumb things. I haven`t been bothering with them lately due to getting my interview date and therefore i got better things to think about.

It does seem however that people will make this fit their views. If we kil x number of people we can somehow translate that to a positive right? Yeah we killed 100 people who were "evil". Well here is a thought. Imagine every person you kill has one friend and one son and one brother and one uncle and one sympathetic stranger. Then you have 500 replacements "evil" men who no doubt will be even worse because they have that added anger.

I won`t ask what the right wing solution is because i know what the right wing solution is. Kill all people on earth with different views to yourself right?

Ignorance to the repercussions of your actions is dangerous. If you think 9/11 was an act of 19 cave dwelling boxcutting savages then by all means destroy the middle east and it`s human beings and then fly your flags over the rubble of the next 500 WTC type attacks. Your actions have consequences and the bigger your acts of murder, however much you can justify them in your head, the more worried you should be. Yes you should be watching above your heads next.

Funny that they know the new boss man already isn`t it? I guess they got both pictures taken at the same time.

I got an email saying that they mailed me on 14th July. It is 17th today and i have not received it yet.

Just wonder if this is just because they deliver via pigeon or from America somewhere or what.

Yeah one thing i hate are people who think that their job makes them superior.

I am starting to get nervous about the medical and interview. I know the chances are it will be easy i am just nervous about the whole thing. I hate job interviews and things like that which is why my job sucks.

I am now trying to figure out when i can leave England. Aiming for July sometime. If i book a flight before i hae my visa i guess i should makes sure there is time to get my visa in the mail.

Yes i was told my tetanus was due in 2001 and i had it in 1991.

Should i ask about titres at my doctors?

I do often get that vibe from receptionists.

yeah the carry on part of that is totally fine. I agree with that because it annoys me when there is no room for my little rucksack and you see people with suitcases in the overhead locker.

ooops

I just reread that and noticed that the checked baggage doesn`t change until October.

I have been looking into flying to Atlanta in July for good. So i decided that i might find the price of excess baggage and take a third bag with me this time. It is after all a very long trip i am going on. So i looked on British Airways website to see if it had an idea of the cost for excess bags.

I learned that they are changing the rules on baggage, and doing it in July.

Hand baggage allowances are changing from 5 July 2006

All passengers will be able to carry one standard-sized bag and one briefcase, laptop computer bags or equivalent on all flights.

The maximum size of the bag, 56cm x 45cm x 25cm (22in x 18in x 10in) has been set in line with the UK Department for Transport recommendations.

Passengers must be able to lift their bag unaided into the aircraft overhead locker.

Briefcases, laptop computer bags or equivalent must fit under the seat in front.

Free checked baggage allowances

A single allowance system based on the number of bags that can be checked in will be introduced from 11 October 2006.

FIRST, Club World, Club Europe and World Traveller Plus

Passengers will be able to check two bags into the aircraft hold free of charge.

World Traveller*, Euro Traveller and UK Domestic

Passengers will be able to check one bag into the aircraft hold free of charge.

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/bagpolicy/public/en_gb

Thought i would let you all know.

aw thanks

dont forget to get somthing from the doctor about your vaccinations, mine gave me a little blue booklet, i needed to have tentanus/dip & MMR, i had chicken pox as a kid

The receptionist told me that i don`t have anything though. I was told in another thread i made about titres and so i want to get that done. I dunno what i am doing yet. I want as few chemicals in me as possible but until i find out what shots i can`t avoid i can`t get them and therefore can`t get the record of them.

It would be easier if the interview and medical were the same day and same place and if i could just get what i needed there. Of course easy is boring. ha

Don't forget that you don't have to have the shots if you don't want them. You can get titres to prove you have immunity if you prefer not to have any more chemicals pumped through your body. I paid for the titres (about 60 quid in total) and my immunities were so high the nurse said I would have probably had a very nasty and serious reaction to repeat jabs. My chicken pox scar, that is clear on my face, was not accepted by the panel physician...unfortunately

Sorry what is titres?

Is it that game with shaped blocks?

Seriously though what is it? I don`t want jabs(not because of needles just because of the fact you never know what they are giving you and it seems unnatural to me.

Thanks everybody. No actual mail yet but i should get it tomorrow or saturday. I have my police certificate done and i just ordered my long birth certificate. Seems i need to arrange vaccinations once i find out what i need and then i have our marriage certificate and all our stuff we sent. Hopefully that is it.

I hope i can offer help to offers once this is all done with, i try to now when i can. Again thanks for all help so far(although i might not be done askign yet). The names that stick out are Yam Sam, Euro, aussiewench, Yodrak, sanctifyer and probably plenty i forgot. This board made it possible for us to do this. This board helped save us money on an attorney. Thank you all.

I am very happy.

Well, I'm glad to see that there has been some intelligent debating (with the ####### bags and the "I've got more friends than you" stuff) going on in the past 24 hours since I was on here.

Just like America...... "Al-Zarqawi killed in Air Raid.... That was SO last week."

I'd just like to remind you guys that gas is $3/gallon here, our troops are still in Iraq, Karl Rove got off, and Elena's interview is in the morning. Hopefully tomorrow I'll be on here not debating the importance of US foreign policy, but debating about which puppy dogs and flowers and sunshine are the best. (But in order for me to debate puppies, flowers, and sun... I've gotta debate US foreign policy, as the two are directly linked, I believe.)

good luck.

I hear ya.

Thanks again. I had to make sure people knew i had an interview date.

Great news YAY I knew it would be early july

yes i bow down to you Euro my visa journey guide from day 1 i think.

Firstly thank you to YamSam for advising we call the Dept of State. Our interview is set for July 10th at 9.30 a.m.

I am now so happy i am bouncing off the walls.

I am also worried that i have not done this or that and hope i have it all together soon.

Getting my long birth certificate online i think.

My dad said he is coming with me but i think he will be bored if he can`t even wait with me.

Well hopefully this is a love story that can really get going now the overlong first chapter is near an end.

Good luck to all the people still waiting all along the process. Don`t lose heart. I know i did many times. I recently decided our case had been lost or destoryed on purpose or any number of other crazy thoughts. Apparently my interview is the day after the World Cup final so that is my new goal as it were.

Just posting this to let people know and thank people who have helped and of course to give hope to those who are getting down.