Nasturtium

Does God forbid fruit? No.

Obviously God does not consider the liquor we refer to as alcohol the same as the fermentation of fruit. If it were, he would have forbidden the fruit as well. But if I get buzzed of an apple I will come back and let you know.

I'm going to assume you mean something different than those exact words since the fermentation of fruit is what gives us wines.

I know that,but Halal meet with beer!!! it wont be Halal any more

I have got to know what this means. I am totally picturing like a meat Oktoberfest that happens between shift changes at the plant where all the steaks and such are drinking beer in the packaging plant, then they settle down into their sleepy packages after a few minutes of debauchery and end up on the store shelf. This would then be discovered by a junior woodchuck reporter who would find lederhosen on some steak and a mini beer stein in with a pork chop, declaring "MYSTERY SOLVED!"

You constantly put down people that are trying to have a conversation here. Your comment about his reading implies he is stupid and this is offensive to those of us that would like to have a civil conversation. You don't know him or his reading comprehension. Why can't you just state your point without the rudeness? You could have made the exact same point without the entire first sentence, congrats.

As the resident science skeptic please tell me - has science proved without a doubt there is a God? No. Yet you believe. Can science prove there is only ONE God? No. Yet you believe. And one day it will be proven... on judgement day. Just because the science done so far does not meet your standards of proof does not mean something isn't true. Science is discovering all the time things that were never known, or that there were mistakes made in original beliefs. This covers your cat question too. Some of us are satisfied with what science has shown us to date, yet all of us are in agreement God says no pork. The reason really doesn't matter. Everyone believe what we will.

The bottom line in my defense for everything that I have said, and I believe Salim82 has been expressing is the God does everything for a reason. He has created everything for a reason. Only he truly knows everything. When God said no pork for example, he did so with specific reason, I find it hard to believe he has something against the very animal he created to help clean the earth.

I don't see where Salim82 said you can't get sick from eating other halal foods. He was discussing the topic of pork - which was the original debate, not all halal foods.

Just a quibble, but science doesn't prove anything. Science can only support or not support a hypothesis through testing/experimentation. Experiments must be replicable. You cannot ask religious questions of science as religion is not observable (if so, show me Gd. Bring Him out right now so we can see Him.), and is not testable. Therefore it is philosophical questioning. Science cannot have anything to do with matters of faith or philosophy.

I think that could ultimately be a very interesting topic. I suspect some bad and wildly misinterpreted intel played a large role in this over the last two millennia?

Well, if you notice, no one dumped the dietary laws until the Romans took over. Then they basically merged whatever they felt like doing with a touch of scripture. Paul never kicked the kosher can or even stopped sacrificing. The 4 rules are listed as being the absolute minimum, then you're to build from there. A lot of it also has to do with cult prostitution which is a problem that was faced more by greeks/romans than Jews. If we were closer I'd totally lend you a good book on it. There are also a few good teachings on it I've run across using a lot of linguistic data. Very cool comparisons of LXX with NT stuff.

Leviticus 17:13, along with the rest of the book, is one of the main sources of kosher law. So do they just follow that one little part, and discard the rest? Where does Paul fit in, and him saying they can eat anything, it's all clean and ok, even meat sacrificed to idols so long as their faith and consciences are clear and their doing so does not corrupt others, I wonder?

This we could talk about if you wanted, although it is not on topic for this amazing MO. You are all doing such a great job! It's like almost 10s all around for effort, especially beer dude. I wish he'd come back and let us know about his connecting halal meat and beer with the US. I want to know if he thinks it's all soaked in beer or what. Fascinating.

I also am no expert, but this is my understanding as well. Kosher also has rules about mixing food types, what kinds of animals can and cannot be eaten, etc. But the kosher meat/animals are still killed in the way Muslims have been told can be eaten. Keep in mind this is just my understanding and opinion. I am sure other opinions vary

Yep yep! Also kosher allows alcohol. Kosher meat is also prepared differently. There is a salting, etc process that strict Jews go through when preparing things to draw out liquid.

Kosher meat is kosher for keeping kosher, but not always kosher for keeping halal. Mileage, it will vary.

Really? Most of us own farms here?

I don't have a farm. What am I doing wrong?

Also for those people who accept kosher, it's good to understand the labels. USDA doesn't regulate religious stuff, and some permit things which others do not.

Clearly you have failed religiously.

I can honestly tell you I don't know squat about under the sea animals. It is very possible they digest things differently, processing another way. I honestly do not know.It is not any less gross but may or may not be less harmful. I am no expert on that and can admit it. At the same time it is not an issue for me as I do not eat anything from the sea as I do not like seafood, regardless.

You may have a point here, you may not. Like I said before, I am entitled to listen to you, research and make a decision based on what my beliefs are. Something worth looking into for me at some point for sure. More out of curiosity to know. God did not forbid the seafood for a reason. Just as I am a firm believer in he did forbid pork for a reason.

Actually, she obviously does know about sea creatures. Your assertion was cannibalization is bad, and sea creatures cannibalize. They are set up to do it as are other animals which naturally cannibalize.

Fruit ferments when it rots. I don't know about you but I prefer fresh fruit.

I am fine with all these scholars saying all the things you have posted to date. Just like I am fine with many scholars that have different beliefs. Not every scholar agrees with each other 100% on all things. Sunni or otherwise. So you keep quoting the scholars you choose to agree with and that is great. I am happy you feel comfortable with your choices. I also feel very comfortable with mine, as well as my beliefs.

And this? Ripe fruit contains alcohol. If you are consuming ripe fruit, you are consuming alcohol.

When we are in Jordan we hold hands just about everywhere, but definitely no kissing. When I left Jordan last August to come home after hubby's interview, he gave me a quick kiss, I was in shock, I don;t even think he realized he did it until the moment after, I saw him looking around with a panicked look on his face, he was trying to see if anyone saw what he did...lol

Ha! Yes, I did that by habit on the street in Amman after my ring was fitted. Then he kissed me at the airport during Ramadan. People gt over it. But it was shocking

I did call yesterday, during my work day, but only listened to the recording. I felt dorky asking the actual question lol. They do have an extension for marriage and divorce ceremonies performed at the embassy so fingers crossed?

If I found the time, and it's not even MY marriage, surely the OP can figure something out, no?

I would think so just for no other reason than to narrow down the options and figure out what are the time constraints to the situation. It's good to know how much notice you have to have in order to do something. I know that was mentioned earlier in this thread. So it pays to know simply for that-- even if this is not a particularly burning question. If you find out you have to schedule 3 months in advance, which means then you have to schedule once visa is in hand, it would require either a trip back and be pushing it for the 90 days or for him to stay overseas and wait out that wait time/some of the wait time. So things like this are why it's good to know.

Yeah I really couldn't care less myself either.

Well, I'm tempted myself to call the embassy and find out what to do. OP-- surely you have prep and lunch time?

Honestly, I haven't found a single thing saying touching during a marriage ceremony is haram. Islamic "rules" seem to depend on the interpreter.

When I think about it I do remember holding my husband's hand while reciting something in Arabic about if I accept him as my husband and if he accepts me, something to that affect. I didn't remember the touching of the thumbs specifically but from what he described it was grasping each other's right hand and then having our thumbs touch. It certainly wasn't anything sexual.

I did a little research about different civil ceremonies at the Ministry and how it would differ between Muslims marrying Muslims and Muslims marrying Christians or Jews. It said that Muslims marrying Muslims, if one of them is Egyptian, would be married by a mazoon at the Ministry but Muslims marrying Christians or Jews or two Muslims marrying but neither is Egyptian would only be married civilly with no mazoon present. So I guess my husband was correct.

Well, I don't think that the rules are that complicated, and so it does leave a lot open for cultural addition. I don't recall ever reading about anything being haram, but I don't actually have a dog in this fight since I couldn't care less what is and is not haram. Ours was his left hand grabbing my right-- because we were just sitting next to each other. It was like holding hands at the movie theater.

Well this isn't true. With my first marriage we did the "thumb" thing under a cloth (marriage was in the US by an Imam) and then just last night my memory was refreshed that this also occurred during our marriage in Egypt. My husband was a bit hurt that I had forgotten. I asked him, so is there some sort of thumb thing that happens during a marriage ceremony in Egypt? He said, yes and then showed me how it's done. He was like, you don't remember doing that? In my defense it was a long, exhausting day. I asked why some have that and some don't and he explained that in Egypt anyways, the ceremony for Muslims marrying Muslims is different than Muslims marrying Christians. The Christian/Muslim couples would not have had this part in their ceremony.

ETA - the thumb part occurs at the end of the ceremony and it is brief.

It sounds much more involved and interesting. Ours was pretty snoozey.

Oh! ETA-- he did grab my hand once it was done. Shocker, I know! Maybe there was touching! It was once everyone was all "mabrook!"

I wanted to add that I haven't found anything when looking online for this so I'm not sure if it's Islamic or cultural or whatever. It's just that I, personally, have experienced it during an Islamic marriage ceremony.

Yeah. Jordan is no touching, no cloth, etc. But until recently there was also no touching even for married couples in public as well (now in some places you can hold hands. Exciting. Still definitely no kissing.

And according to your husband/scholar, id two people touched each other before marriage, then got married while fulfilling all requierements of an Islamic marriage, their marriage is still non-hallal?

LOL no. You totally didn't get that, did you.

Lol! Well I don't think it makes you a fornicator since I don't think it's an "official" part of the ceremony. I liken it to the unity candle thing that some people do at Western weddings or whatever the modern equivalent is. I've seen candles, pouring of colored sand, etc.

Yeah, that's how it sounds to me too. So my fornicator hopes are dashed?

We literally grabbed two random dudes at the Ministry in Egypt to be our witnesses. So yeah, grab two random dudes. Or bring your own dudes! BYOD!!

Bwahahaha!!

You, along with millions of others.

Who knew that Qatar would be the only place to get it right?

Yeah, whole countries are doing it! LOL my husband just now, "Halal marriage is that you don't touch before you're married. No ceremony should have touching before marriage!" pffft!

I'm feeling miffed that my husband didn't have any embassy shouting matches on my behalf. We didn't even get married in an embassy, but it's still just making me feel inadequate now.

I just found out I am a fornicator for not pressing my thumb to his. Dammit. I've been living a lie.

Wow is this unusual for your area ? Sorry about the phal but hopefully that was the only casualty.

It was. I didn't even realize it had fallen until the next day. It amazingly fell smack onto my chaise lounge, so the glass candy dish it is in didn't shatter. It landed upright and was sandwiched between pillows lol. All in all, it was a perfect fall! We get earthquakes every once in a while. I'm about 35 miles from the New Madrid fault. :/

OK. Now I've narrowed it down...

MAP 3.0 2013/02/24 09:55:55 37.561 -121.956 6.6 SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, CALIFORNIA

MAP 3.0 2013/02/24 07:51:48 18.576 -65.751 83.0 PUERTO RICO REGION

MAP 2.6 2013/02/24 05:52:40 35.627 -90.554 13.1 ARKANSAS

MAP 4.4 2013/02/24 05:07:30 36.453 70.305 217.1 HINDU KUSH REGION, AFGHANISTAN

MAP 4.6 2013/02/24 04:55:20 36.991 140.619 56.7 NEAR THE EAST COAST OF HONSHU, JAPAN

MAP 3.8 2013/02/24 00:57:27 26.933 75.570 10.4 RAJASTHAN, INDIA

LOL It was this: http://earthquaketrack.com/p/united-states/arkansas/recent

Sorry, am currently frazzley in the brain and didn't really answer you. The 3.6. There was a 3.6/3.9 depending on the source and then 7 hours later a 2.6.

Yes I suddenly realized what you said in your first post - but WHERE was an earthquake today ????

Ours was on Sunday.

Wait... what earthquake ???

My first post today.

This one

I thought I would mention since you'll understand the frustration-- had a gorgeous, 3-branch bloom spike on my Phal. schilleriana. It just started to open. Amazing. Then? Earthquake knocked it off the shelf and broke 2 of the branches off, one being the main.

Congrats!

Have her instagram some pics !

I got a lil vanilla planifolia... so far it's just sitting there - has not grown at all. ( They are reportedly "slow-growing.")

LOL she gets a bit turned around on a regular cell phone. It's going to have to be blind! I am not holding out hope for vanilla or for it doing well here. But I figured I can always try!

I put the spikes in water. They may open, but I am not holding out hope. So mad at that earthquake.

Oh I hope you get what you want! anticipation is hard

Sorry for your loss. Losing pets is terrible.