Bush Says US 'Does Not Torture'

[Logres 0]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

I am not sure such cases would be documented......... but, I'd be very surprised if they didn't happen in most countries.

As for the US dragging people off to an 'alien' country, so that their laws can't be 'applied'.... this strongly suggests to me that some wrong-doing is occuring.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

I am not sure such cases would be documented......... but, I'd be very surprised if they didn't happen in most countries.

As for the US dragging people off to an 'alien' country, so that their laws can't be 'applied'.... this strongly suggests to me that some wrong-doing is occuring.

So, you don't know that there is an industrialized, civilized nation engaging in any such activity. The "allied" nations you speak of are not exactly either. Industrialized or civilized that is. Cases on the US torture practices - very recent ones - are documented. Which, again, is why US officials are sought by Interpol.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Mr. Big Dog

[Logres 0]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

I am not sure such cases would be documented......... but, I'd be very surprised if they didn't happen in most countries.

As for the US dragging people off to an 'alien' country, so that their laws can't be 'applied'.... this strongly suggests to me that some wrong-doing is occuring.

So, you don't know that there is an industrialized, civilized nation engaging in any such activity. The "allied" nations you speak of are not exactly either. Industrialized or civilized that is. Cases on the US torture practices - very recent ones - are documented. Which, again, is why US officials are sought by Interpol.

Sorry, don't understand your point here. I didn't mention "allied" nations, so please don't start putting words into my mouth.

As for the US cases you mention, OK, some people are up for trial if they get caught - not the same thing as being guilty.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

I am not sure such cases would be documented......... but, I'd be very surprised if they didn't happen in most countries.

As for the US dragging people off to an 'alien' country, so that their laws can't be 'applied'.... this strongly suggests to me that some wrong-doing is occuring.

So, you don't know that there is an industrialized, civilized nation engaging in any such activity. The "allied" nations you speak of are not exactly either. Industrialized or civilized that is. Cases on the US torture practices - very recent ones - are documented. Which, again, is why US officials are sought by Interpol.

Sorry, don't understand your point here. I didn't mention "allied" nations, so please don't start putting words into my mouth.

As for the US cases you mention, OK, some people are up for trial if they get caught - not the same thing as being guilty.

Sorry, I actually misread your statement.

The cases I mentioned are not at all being denied by the government. The accused just won't stand trial...

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I don't understand the concept that some people believe that the basic tenets of our Constitution should only extend to American citizens. The framers of the Constitution and our mission to promote democracy in the world say otherwise. America and our core constitutional rights and liberties should not be some exclusive, elitist club, but ideals that we promote and support as universal.

Edited October 6, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[Logres 0]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

I am not sure such cases would be documented......... but, I'd be very surprised if they didn't happen in most countries.

As for the US dragging people off to an 'alien' country, so that their laws can't be 'applied'.... this strongly suggests to me that some wrong-doing is occuring.

So, you don't know that there is an industrialized, civilized nation engaging in any such activity. The "allied" nations you speak of are not exactly either. Industrialized or civilized that is. Cases on the US torture practices - very recent ones - are documented. Which, again, is why US officials are sought by Interpol.

Sorry, don't understand your point here. I didn't mention "allied" nations, so please don't start putting words into my mouth.

As for the US cases you mention, OK, some people are up for trial if they get caught - not the same thing as being guilty.

Sorry, I actually misread your statement.

The cases I mentioned are not at all being denied by the government. The accused just won't stand trial...

-OK

-OK, without any sources, I didn't know what you referring to here.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

I am not sure such cases would be documented......... but, I'd be very surprised if they didn't happen in most countries.

As for the US dragging people off to an 'alien' country, so that their laws can't be 'applied'.... this strongly suggests to me that some wrong-doing is occuring.

So, you don't know that there is an industrialized, civilized nation engaging in any such activity. The "allied" nations you speak of are not exactly either. Industrialized or civilized that is. Cases on the US torture practices - very recent ones - are documented. Which, again, is why US officials are sought by Interpol.

Sorry, don't understand your point here. I didn't mention "allied" nations, so please don't start putting words into my mouth.

As for the US cases you mention, OK, some people are up for trial if they get caught - not the same thing as being guilty.

Sorry, I actually misread your statement.

The cases I mentioned are not at all being denied by the government. The accused just won't stand trial...

-OK

-OK, without any sources, I didn't know what you referring to here.

Khaled El-Masri, for one.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

When Germany, France, Australia, Spain, Canada, Great Britain, and numerous other countries decide to release their "top secret" documents to me, I'll be sure to report back to you. In the meantime, I'll let common sense dictate this one. B)

You don't honestly believe that just because a country hasn't been caught perpetrating an act of torture, it means they don't partake in it, do you? The U.S. was sloppy and very unprofessional. That's how and why it got caught. Otherwise, no one would have ever known. I'd bet my bottom dollar that every single agency in the world (including the CIA, SIS, ASIS, CSIS, SVR, and the Mossad) have practiced and probably are still practicing torture, at least to some degree, when it that agency feels it's absolutely necessary.

I don't understand the concept that some people believe that the basic tenets of our Constitution should only extend to American citizens. The framers of the Constitution and our mission to promote democracy in the world say otherwise. America and our core constitutional rights and liberties should not be some exclusive, elitist club, but ideals that we promote and support as universal.

Steven, I don't see this as an issue of some "exclusive or elistist" club. The truth of the matter is the document we're talking about here is called the Constitution of the United States of America, not the Globally International Constitution of the World or some such nonsense. Because of this, what's written in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights does extend only to U.S. citizens and Permanent Residents. Anyone else (including those who're here illegally), are not covered.

It makes sense too. Am I, as an American, provided for by legal framework of nations in Europe or Asia or the Middle-East? Only in a very limited sense if I am there as a visitor, but otherwise, I am nothing more than a foreigner to them and no more entitled to the benefits of their country than they are to that of the United States.

Considering all of the trouble and aggravation we here at VJ have to go through in order to be with our loved ones, I'm truly surprised you don't understand this concept. The world isn't some giant "commune." We're all separate nations, each with our own ways of doing things -- this includes laws. If this weren't the case, then the immigration hassles we all know too well wouldn't be a part of our lives and VJ wouldn't need to exist.

So while I could see the core values of America ("life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness") getting spread across the world in an intellectual or educational manner, I don't see the United States doing anything to change the basic legal framework of this nation. Some things just don't change easily, and that, I believe, is one of them.

[bgreed 0]

You will find that "torture" meaning the use of physical violence to extracrt information is not used by developed nations. Reason, because it is counter productive. If physical violence is used yes a person will confess ( see Spainish inquisition) to whatever you may want them to and tell you anything you want to hear just to get the pain to stop. In todays method of using things like sleep depravation which goes way beyond just simply keeping somebody awake. In this area it has become a whole science unto itself. But also the use of various drugs administered covertly to the subject. The idea being to break their mental resistance to the point where they have a "change of heart" and are willing to give very high quality information. Profesional interogation has gone way beyond hot pinchers and the rack.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

You will find that "torture" meaning the use of physical violence to extracrt information is not used by developed nations. Reason, because it is counter productive. If physical violence is used yes a person will confess ( see Spainish inquisition) to whatever you may want them to and tell you anything you want to hear just to get the pain to stop. In todays method of using things like sleep depravation which goes way beyond just simply keeping somebody awake. In this area it has become a whole science unto itself. But also the use of various drugs administered covertly to the subject. The idea being to break their mental resistance to the point where they have a "change of heart" and are willing to give very high quality information. Profesional interogation has gone way beyond hot pinchers and the rack.

Excellent post! Wow! Well said.

[Marc and Olga 0]

Because of this, what's written in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights does extend only to U.S. citizens and Permanent Residents. Anyone else (including those who're here illegally), are not covered.

Oh I so wish that was true, even illegals can get Due Process and have the right against unjustified search and siezure, imagine if this were the case, the spanish speakers would be claiming racism or harrassment and that they are being singled out...wait almost like the muslims and the people that appear to be from the Middle East...

That Canadian comes to mind

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I don't understand the concept that some people believe that the basic tenets of our Constitution should only extend to American citizens. The framers of the Constitution and our mission to promote democracy in the world say otherwise. America and our core constitutional rights and liberties should not be some exclusive, elitist club, but ideals that we promote and support as universal.

Steven, I don't see this as an issue of some "exclusive or elistist" club. The truth of the matter is the document we're talking about here is called the Constitution of the United States of America, not the Globally International Constitution of the World or some such nonsense. Because of this, what's written in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights does extend only to U.S. citizens and Permanent Residents. Anyone else (including those who're here illegally), are not covered.

So while I could see the core values of America ("life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness") getting spread across the world in an intellectual or educational manner, I don't see the United States doing anything to change the basic legal framework of this nation. Some things just don't change easily, and that, I believe, is one of them.

Take for example, due process. Timeless wisdom is why the framers of the Constitution included that principle - innocent until proven guilty. To believe that principle of freedom and democracy should not be apply to everyone that we seek to prosecute is being elitist. It's ignoring due process as a universal truth and reducing it down to a term and condition.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

When Germany, France, Australia, Spain, Canada, Great Britain, and numerous other countries decide to release their "top secret" documents to me, I'll be sure to report back to you. In the meantime, I'll let common sense dictate this one. B)

In other words, you got nothing beyond some hot air on this one. Just as I thought. B)

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Because of this, what's written in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights does extend only to U.S. citizens and Permanent Residents. Anyone else (including those who're here illegally), are not covered.

Nonsense.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Is the U.S. the only industrialized nation to covertly use torture? Not by a long shot.

Which other industrialized and civilized nation does torture? Who do they torture, when and where? I'd like to see you back that statement up some.

When Germany, France, Australia, Spain, Canada, Great Britain, and numerous other countries decide to release their "top secret" documents to me, I'll be sure to report back to you. In the meantime, I'll let common sense dictate this one. B)

In other words, you got nothing beyond some hot air on this one. Just as I thought. B)

So something only happens if you're caught? Wow. That's pretty cool. Thanks for redefining everything for me! Now I can cheat, lie, steal and kill and never have committed a single criminal act so long as no one has caught me! Anyone else see how ridiculous that concept is?

Because of this, what's written in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights does extend only to U.S. citizens and Permanent Residents. Anyone else (including those who're here illegally), are not covered.

Nonsense.

Unless you can expand on that, it looks like to me you've got nothing but "some hot air on this one."