John Edwards has plan to economically diversify schools - his plan includes vouchers!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

well, i will take what i suppose to be the unpopular stand on this, then...

i believe that all kids should be able to have a good education from public schools... however, unless the fed govt is willing to put enough money into ALL the schools to even out the quality ($100M isnt gonna cut it), i dont think they should have a say in shipping kids from one district to another...

lets look at the real world... i pay more for a smaller house to be in a great school district... i pay whopping city taxes so my child can attend a well-funded, higher-rated school... if i am busting my a$$ to make this mortgage for my child, why should it be given to someone who doesnt do the same, or why should my child be shipped to a magnet school in a district where the schools are not the priority?

And that's exactly how economic segregation happens. What you want (correct me if I'm wrong) is a quality education for your child, but don't you think it's elitist to want quality of education to be determined solely on the location of a school (such as in a wealthy neighborhood)?

i DO want a quality education for my child... i place a higher priority on it than i do other things that city taxes pay for... thats why i chose to live in a place where schools are the priority... it meets my needs... it is not a 'wealthy' neighborhood... its not a ghetto, but its not wealthy... but the ppl who live here (and amazingly enough, its culturally diverse) choose to put more of their tax money towards the schools... what is wrong with that? it wouldnt make sense for a community that didnt have a large population of children to put a lot of money into the schools... it would make more sense to put it into drawing tourists, hospitals, or whatever would serve the purpose of the ppl who live in that community...

all that being said... *IF* the federal govt wants to step in and try to make things equal, then it will take a lot more money than it seems they are willing to put up... $100M seems like a lot of money... but split that among all the schools in the USA and it then seems pretty paltry

Well there's local (city), county and state taxes that help fund public education. In fact, I believe that where the disparity exists. It's local governments that allocate funding for their schools.

aye, theres the rub... state and federal level govt should be subsidizing to make sure that all schools provide good schooling...

but then you have differences within the family homes... does the family at 123 main street support and encourage their children above and beyond school? does the family at 125 main street encourage their children to skip school to work to bring in some more money? etc, etc...

I don't know. I'm not sure what makes or breaks schools in terms of quality and performance. I think it's got to be a combination of sorts - involved parents, money must play a part, attracting good teachers, etc.

Edited July 17, 2007 by Steven_and_Jinky

[GaryC 7]

but then you have differences within the family homes... does the family at 123 main street support and encourage their children above and beyond school? does the family at 125 main street encourage their children to skip school to work to bring in some more money? etc, etc...

You can't legislate good parenting. And you can't overcome bad parenting with government projects. That is where personal responsibility comes into play. All the government can do is to offer a chance for a good education. After that it's the parents and students job to take advantage of the offer.

[keltic 1]

I don't know. I'm not sure what makes or breaks schools in terms of quality and performance. I think it's got to be a combination of sorts - involved parents, money must play a part, attracting good teachers, etc.

i think its a combination of all, as well... and i think, that if you look at it (im sure someone will search and find some stats), the better-rated schools probably have more active parents... the schools in my district probably dont have near the money available as do a few of the other nearby districts... but because of how it is used and how the parents are mostly all active in supporting the school and the students, it is ranked at least as high, and possibly higher

anyway, back to the OP... offering up $100M to make schools equal in this country is not going to help the situation anymore than offering up $100K towards building a fence along the mexican/american border will fix illegal immigration

ooooooooooooooooooooooooo, she went there!

[keltic 1]

but then you have differences within the family homes... does the family at 123 main street support and encourage their children above and beyond school? does the family at 125 main street encourage their children to skip school to work to bring in some more money? etc, etc...

You can't legislate good parenting. And you can't overcome bad parenting with government projects. That is where personal responsibility comes into play. All the government can do is to offer a chance for a good education. After that it's the parents and students job to take advantage of the offer.

yep... and thats one of the reasons that communities form... parents that value education will likely be drawn together and make a school successful... retirement communities in florida will probably have better healthcare options...

its not 100%, but very likely

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You can't legislate good parenting. And you can't overcome bad parenting with government projects.

You got that right!

[GaryC 7]

but then you have differences within the family homes... does the family at 123 main street support and encourage their children above and beyond school? does the family at 125 main street encourage their children to skip school to work to bring in some more money? etc, etc...

You can't legislate good parenting. And you can't overcome bad parenting with government projects. That is where personal responsibility comes into play. All the government can do is to offer a chance for a good education. After that it's the parents and students job to take advantage of the offer.

yep... and thats one of the reasons that communities form... parents that value education will likely be drawn together and make a school successful... retirement communities in florida will probably have better healthcare options...

its not 100%, but very likely

I was raised in a tiny cow town called Dow. The total population of the grade school was about 175 kids (k-6). Above that and you had to go to the county seat for junior and senior high. We had only the basics but we got a very good education because of the nature of the community. Simple farmer types that valued a good basic education. Money isn't the answer to everything. Good parenting can overcome almost any problems.

[keltic 1]

but then you have differences within the family homes... does the family at 123 main street support and encourage their children above and beyond school? does the family at 125 main street encourage their children to skip school to work to bring in some more money? etc, etc...

You can't legislate good parenting. And you can't overcome bad parenting with government projects. That is where personal responsibility comes into play. All the government can do is to offer a chance for a good education. After that it's the parents and students job to take advantage of the offer.

yep... and thats one of the reasons that communities form... parents that value education will likely be drawn together and make a school successful... retirement communities in florida will probably have better healthcare options...

its not 100%, but very likely

I was raised in a tiny cow town called Dow. The total population of the grade school was about 175 kids (k-6). Above that and you had to go to the county seat for junior and senior high. We had only the basics but we got a very good education because of the nature of the community. Simple farmer types that valued a good basic education. Money isn't the answer to everything. Good parenting can overcome almost any problems.

i agree... money is not the answer to everything... um, im not sure if there is something that i am missing here, but does it seem that i am suggesting such? i believe that money can be an incentive and a catalyst to providing a basic good education system... but there is more, much more needed...

the point that i was trying to make is that even within a community with well-funded schools, there are differences in parenting that vary from household to household... so, yes, parents can make up for and excel above the education offered in public schools... parental involvement, including, as well as above and beyond payment, is what makes a school excel

btw, both of my parents come from a small town where you either had a farm (my mothers family) or worked in the sock mill (my fathers family)... they both have good educations, because their parents expected and supported it...

Edited July 17, 2007 by keltic

[mawilson 2,133]

Ideally, it would great to see neighborhoods and communities that support a diversity along socio-economic lines, but I realize that's not easy to legislate.

Very easy to legislate. Stop paying for public schools with property taxes and shift the

burden on to the state to provide the same amount of funding for all public schools.

Problem solved.

[GaryC 7]

but then you have differences within the family homes... does the family at 123 main street support and encourage their children above and beyond school? does the family at 125 main street encourage their children to skip school to work to bring in some more money? etc, etc...

You can't legislate good parenting. And you can't overcome bad parenting with government projects. That is where personal responsibility comes into play. All the government can do is to offer a chance for a good education. After that it's the parents and students job to take advantage of the offer.

yep... and thats one of the reasons that communities form... parents that value education will likely be drawn together and make a school successful... retirement communities in florida will probably have better healthcare options...

its not 100%, but very likely

I was raised in a tiny cow town called Dow. The total population of the grade school was about 175 kids (k-6). Above that and you had to go to the county seat for junior and senior high. We had only the basics but we got a very good education because of the nature of the community. Simple farmer types that valued a good basic education. Money isn't the answer to everything. Good parenting can overcome almost any problems.

i agree... money is not the answer to everything... um, im not sure if there is something that i am missing here, but does it seem that i am suggesting such? i believe that money can be an incentive and a catalyst to providing a basic good education system... but there is more, much more needed...

the point that i was trying to make is that even within a community with well-funded schools, there are differences in parenting that vary from household to household... so, yes, parents can make up for and excel above the education offered in public schools... parental involvement, including, as well as above and beyond payment, is what makes a school excel

btw, both of my parents come from a small town where you either had a farm (my mothers family) or worked in the sock mill (my fathers family)... they both have good educations, because their parents expected and supported it...

No, I didn't think you were suggesting it's the only thing. I was expanding on your point. The money needs to be there for the basics but after that it's the parents responsibility.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Ideally, it would great to see neighborhoods and communities that support a diversity along socio-economic lines, but I realize that's not easy to legislate.

Very easy to legislate. Stop paying for public schools with property taxes and shift the

burden on to the state to provide the same amount of funding for all public schools.

Problem solved.

Sounds reasonable.

[mawilson 2,133]

Ideally, it would great to see neighborhoods and communities that support a diversity along socio-economic lines, but I realize that's not easy to legislate.

Very easy to legislate. Stop paying for public schools with property taxes and shift the

burden on to the state to provide the same amount of funding for all public schools.

Problem solved.

Sounds reasonable.

The property tax system is pretty outdated:

Imagine a colonial New Jersey town 300 years ago. It has one church; the townspeople

are predominantly of one faith. The town is miles from its nearest neighbor, so everyone

lives, works and goes to school there. There is a town doctor, but no hospital. The town

has businesses that trade on the river and serve surrounding farmers from time to time,

but for the most part the residents consume what services the town provides. And these

services are relatively few, so government expenses are low and paid for entirely by a

tax the town levies on residents' homes and land -- a property tax, as it were.

In this era-before "separation of church and state" -- religious institutions were closely

identified with the government, in the tradition of the divine right of kings. No property

taxes were levied on the church nor were they on the school because they were

considered -- like the church -- to be no more than extensions of the private property of the

townspeople, who already carried the tax burden. The people who would pay a tax on

the church and school were the same people whose property already was being taxed,

so taxing the institutions themselves would be duplicative.

Now imagine this same place today -- a city, say, like New Brunswick. It is an old and

complex city, densely packed into a county of 25 municipalities. Instead of one church

there are 56 churches and synagogues. Many of their congregant families moved to the

suburbs a generation ago. A major state university -- attracting students from around the

world -- sprawls throughout the city, with a faculty that lives all over New Jersey and in

neighboring states. A seminary trains pastors for a large national Protestant denomination.

The incomes of city residents, largely working class, are among the lowest in the state.

Revitalized commercial development and new upscale homes carry substantial property

tax abatements.

Two large hospitals fiercely compete to supply the region with the best medical services

money can buy. Numerous county government buildings crowd into high-value downtown

space. The public schools struggle near the bottom of academic ratings for the region.

Nonprofits, charities, medical and educational organizations concentrate in the city.

To pay for the schools as well as services offered by the city and county, property taxes

are high. Yet, property amounting to 47 percent of the value of all the buildings and land

within the city limits is not taxed at all.

This is a situation in which many of the services supported by property taxes -- police,

firefighting, street lighting, roads just to name a few -- are used by thousands of people

who do not pay those taxes, either because they reside outside the city or because they

are within the city but exempt from property taxes. And many of those who do pay are

not getting the value of the institutions that do not pay. These are people whose children

do not attend the state university, whose churches do not benefit from the seminary's

training. They do not practice medicine in the hospitals or law in the county courts or

teach at the university.

Everything else being equal, residents are paying higher taxes than they would pay if

everyone using the services shared the burden of paying for them. In short, piety,

charity, government and the tax laws of the state help to keep this city poor. "Where

is the justice," asks Richard D. Pomp, professor of law at the university of Connecticut

and Director of the New York Tax Study Commission, "in a state law that forces a city

to subsidize those who live in the suburbs?" (Pomp 2002, 385). Indeed, where is the

justice in public policy that heaps the burden of many onto the few least able to bear it?

This report will examine those questions. It will present data on the nature and extent

of property tax burdens in New Jersey and its municipalities, look at the reasons and

arguments for and against property tax exemptions and offer recommendations to

deal with a situation resulting at least in part from sleepy villages evolving into modern

New Jersey-while the system for funding government services still closely resembles

that of colonial times.

Source

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

New Brunswick is an interesting example. What this article doesn't mention is the huge revenues cities like NB reap from the corporations that are in NB.

[jundp 191]

...

The proposals Edwards plans to unveil would encourage income diversity in schools, in the hope that poor students would have more experienced teachers and motivated classmates.

...

My problem with Edwards' "hope" is that it's very hard to get experienced teachers -- or even GOOD teachers who will gain experience -- to stay if the money you are offering them as a salary isn't even enough to pay their own property taxes. Bellevue, WA has some of the best schools (on paper) but hardly any of the teachers can afford to live there, because their salaries don't cover it. As for the more urban schools where there are issues of motivation, it's not that there aren't teachers who are good and willing to work there, it's that without parental involvement, as was mentioned by many other posters, it doesn't matter how much you pay the teacher. If you can't get the kids to stay in the classroom and if the parents don't care, you can't teach them. I think the education system needs to be re-vamped, and one way to do that is to take all those administrators who haven't been in a classroom in a million years, or maybe never stepped foot back in one after their student teaching days, and replace them with actual educators...people who teach in a classroom, not just sit there and use "theory"

Oh man, sorry for the rant. I'm a teacher. I get really worked up over this

[i was raised in a tiny cow town called Dow. The total population of the grade school was about 175 kids (k-6). Above that and you had to go to the county seat for junior and senior high. We had only the basics but we got a very good education because of the nature of the community. Simple farmer types that valued a good basic education. Money isn't the answer to everything. Good parenting can overcome almost any problems.

What is wrong with me? I used to be such a good liberal, but lately, I just keep agreeing with Gary on everything....Freaky.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

What is wrong with me? I used to be such a good liberal, but lately, I just keep agreeing with Gary on everything....Freaky.

Report to the ACLU reeducation camp immediately.

[GaryC 7]

[i was raised in a tiny cow town called Dow. The total population of the grade school was about 175 kids (k-6). Above that and you had to go to the county seat for junior and senior high. We had only the basics but we got a very good education because of the nature of the community. Simple farmer types that valued a good basic education. Money isn't the answer to everything. Good parenting can overcome almost any problems.

What is wrong with me? I used to be such a good liberal, but lately, I just keep agreeing with Gary on everything....Freaky.

Some things like illegal immigration and education can cut across party lines. Don't worry, there is still plenty to argue about. Care to discuss Iraq or Global Warming?