USCIS have gone totally insane !

[Captain Oates 910]

Story so far - we are both resident in the UK

Filed at Carolyn's last place of residence (Nebraska office covering Wisconsin) per USCIS London instructions.

They sent it to California who sent it back to us in The UK saying file in London

We file again in London and they send it to Nebraska who send it to California

The application has our UK address on it but with a covering letter saying it has to go to Nebraska but the house in Wisconsin is sold and please do not send ANY correspondence there - send it all to the UK

Ok now we wait a month eagerly greeting the mailman to get NOA1

Nothing

Yesterday Carolyn called California - a chap answered who was the supervisor but could hardly speak English.

He said the USCIS cannot send NOA1 to an address outside the US so they had sent it to the Wisconsin address even though they knew the house was sold and had new occupiers. It bounced from the US post office and they have put our case on hold. He can't send us a NOA1. If she had not phoned the application would have stayed on hold until it expired and nobody would have contacted us !

stalemate

He suggests we contact London USCIS on the fortune a minute line..

I will try on Monday but no doubt they wont speak to me as Carolyn is the petitioner (she will be at work)

Is it me or are this lot totally insane ? Why do they mail to an address they know is non existent and then fail to contact us at our stated address with 2 phone numbers when it is returned to them as undeliverable !!!!

We have been at this now since 9 January and getting no nearer to NOA1 !!!!

What is other people's experience with both being non US residents at the time of filing ? How did you get NOA 1 ? help we are sinking !!!!

alan

[alohaspirit 0]

Story so far - we are both resident in the UK

Filed at Carolyn's last place of residence (Nebraska office covering Wisconsin) per USCIS London instructions.

They sent it to California who sent it back to us in The UK saying file in London

We file again in London and they send it to Nebraska who send it to California

The application has our UK address on it but with a covering letter saying it has to go to Nebraska but the house in Wisconsin is sold and please do not send ANY correspondence there - send it all to the UK

Ok now we wait a month eagerly greeting the mailman to get NOA1

Nothing

Yesterday Carolyn called California - a chap answered who was the supervisor but could hardly speak English.

He said the USCIS cannot send NOA1 to an address outside the US so they had sent it to the Wisconsin address even though they knew the house was sold and had new occupiers. It bounced from the US post office and they have put our case on hold. He can't send us a NOA1. If she had not phoned the application would have stayed on hold until it expired and nobody would have contacted us !

stalemate

He suggests we contact London USCIS on the fortune a minute line..

I will try on Monday but no doubt they wont speak to me as Carolyn is the petitioner (she will be at work)

Is it me or are this lot totally insane ? Why do they mail to an address they know is non existent and then fail to contact us at our stated address with 2 phone numbers when it is returned to them as undeliverable !!!!

We have been at this now since 9 January and getting no nearer to NOA1 !!!!

What is other people's experience with both being non US residents at the time of filing ? How did you get NOA 1 ? help we are sinking !!!!

alan

Why your wife didn't file for DCF in London?

http://london.usembassy.gov/dhs/uscis/i130filing.html

[meauxna 15]

alan:

You need a valid US address and someone who will forward your mail to the UK.

It's not working for you because of the adresses you've given. I don't recommend phoning the UK pay per minute line--what can they do for you? (nothing)

If you can track your payment, the account number should be on the back of the payment. You can then track the petition online. You don't "need" NOA1 for anything unless you'd planned to also file I-129f for a K-3 visa.

[Captain Oates 910]

Story so far - we are both resident in the UK

Filed at Carolyn's last place of residence (Nebraska office covering Wisconsin) per USCIS London instructions.

They sent it to California who sent it back to us in The UK saying file in London

We file again in London and they send it to Nebraska who send it to California

The application has our UK address on it but with a covering letter saying it has to go to Nebraska but the house in Wisconsin is sold and please do not send ANY correspondence there - send it all to the UK

Ok now we wait a month eagerly greeting the mailman to get NOA1

Nothing

Yesterday Carolyn called California - a chap answered who was the supervisor but could hardly speak English.

He said the USCIS cannot send NOA1 to an address outside the US so they had sent it to the Wisconsin address even though they knew the house was sold and had new occupiers. It bounced from the US post office and they have put our case on hold. He can't send us a NOA1. If she had not phoned the application would have stayed on hold until it expired and nobody would have contacted us !

stalemate

He suggests we contact London USCIS on the fortune a minute line..

I will try on Monday but no doubt they wont speak to me as Carolyn is the petitioner (she will be at work)

Is it me or are this lot totally insane ? Why do they mail to an address they know is non existent and then fail to contact us at our stated address with 2 phone numbers when it is returned to them as undeliverable !!!!

We have been at this now since 9 January and getting no nearer to NOA1 !!!!

What is other people's experience with both being non US residents at the time of filing ? How did you get NOA 1 ? help we are sinking !!!!

alan

Why your wife didn't file for DCF in London?

http://london.usembassy.gov/dhs/uscis/i130filing.html

London said they would not do DCF as she has been an official UK resident for less than 2 years...in that case they send it to the last place of residence in the US.

We are going round in circles - London will not take it and California will take it but only if Carolyn is living in the US...

In other words, any US Citizen resident in the UK (and many other countries) for less than 2 years cannot successfully file either in the UK etc or in the US - they live in limbo land

Can you believe that ?

We are totally stuck ! Has anyone got any experience of this idiocy ?

alan

[Captain Oates 910]

meauxna (post4)

thank you for that as my mind was slowly working round to thinking that the case isn't held up...

I have the WAC receipt number for California (Carolyn badgered him into giving it to us after 20 minutes of intense validation questions - the number on the check was wrong !) and I have added the case to my portfolio at USCIS online..

when i double click the number to get detail, it says that the NOA1 has been returned to them and asks for a mailing address in the US

With the usual hysterical reaction of some of us VJers, I assumed this meant the case was held pending a valid address but I am thinking you are dead right and it isn't held...

If we give them Carolyn's mom's address they will just update the online case to say address now received ?

Can we be assured the case is proceeding ?

Will NOA2 go that address ? - silly question of course it will.

but what about the visa stages, will new Hampshire start sending stuff there (affidavit) or will they use the UK address on all the forms

Carolyn's mom is old and we don't want to give her lots of trips to the post office..

I feel the fog of war lifting a bit (until later stages)

I cant understand why VJ isn't full of expatriate USC's in this same situation ? if they are not eligible for DCF, then do their files get marked up as 'undeliverable notice ?' when they file direct with the USA

Surely not every USC has family etc in the US... there must be some orphans there....

alan

Edited March 12, 2007 by saywhat

[meauxna 15]

hi alan,

I realise you are experiencing a lot of frustration with this. However, I've noticed that you can jump to conclusions and accept and state them as fact; this thread has a few examples. My only 'problem' with that is the upset it causes others who read your authoritative statements as fact, which confuses others further and perpetuates rumors. I apologize if my replies to you have been tense in that regard in the past.

Most USC expats do not wind up in your reasonably unique situation. If they are filing to a US Service Center instead of abroad, they include a valid US mailing address.

I can understand not wanting to burden Mum; you can start looking for other solutions.

Such as:

-a trusted friend or colleague in the US who will accept and forward mail in a timely fashion

-a professional service that will be your mailing address and mail forwarding service

-retain and name as agent a US immigration attorney; they will receive a copy of all of your USCIS notices

-USC returns to the US to manage her mail and local business

-a forwarding order from Mum's house to your UK address (least favorite for me)

Your USC is expected to be 'domiciled' in the US--not be a contactless orphan. This is part of what qulifies her to sponsor your immigration.

Bear in mind that the only mail that should be coming from USCIS now is "NOA2". From there, the case is forwarded to NVC.

Changing your mailing address with CSC is not going to be a simple one-step process. Once you're "in", it is hard to change things. If you have the email address for the CSC in addition to a mailing address and a phone number (or a fax if you can get it) use as many of these methods as possible and include as much biographic and case information (A#, SS# etc) as you can to identify your correspondance. You may or may not get any type of confirmation of this activity. Changing addresses mid-case is often a problem-increaser. Be vigilant.

The number on the back of your check was not "wrong". It simply was not your WAC#.

From my reading, I see that the first form from the NVC is a "Choice of Agent". You will have a chance at that time to specifically choose the address your mailings from them go to. This CAN be an overseas address (expect delays due to local mail, but shouldn't be too bad with UK).

I cant understand why VJ isn't full of expatriate USC's in this same situation ? if they are not eligible for DCF, then do their files get marked up as 'undeliverable notice ?' when they file direct with the USA

When London cracked down on the turn-around DCFs a couple/few years back, there were a few people that fell into the situation of not being allowed to file in London, but not really 'living' in the US either. A couple of experiences like yours, and people quickly realised that if they were going to send I-130 to a US Service Center, they had better use a US address, even if they were living abroad. Even my I-130 filed *abroad* was requested to have my US address on it.

I know that you do not like that it doesn't make sense to you. My UK fella says: That just the way things ARE. I hate it when he says that.

You have your online case registration. You can keep an eye on your file and any progress. Unless you are planning to file I-129f to pursue a K-3 visa, you do not *need* the NOA1. If you are planning to apply for a K-3 visa, praytell why.

As always, I wish you peace of mind and a trouble-free visa process.

[Captain Oates 910]

hi alan,

I realise you are experiencing a lot of frustration with this. However, I've noticed that you can jump to conclusions and accept and state them as fact; this thread has a few examples. My only 'problem' with that is the upset it causes others who read your authoritative statements as fact, which confuses others further and perpetuates rumors. I apologize if my replies to you have been tense in that regard in the past.

Most USC expiates do not wind up in your reasonably unique situation. If they are filing to a US Service Center instead of abroad, they include a valid US mailing address.

I can understand not wanting to burden Mum; you can start looking for other solutions.

Such as:

-a trusted friend or colleague in the US who will accept and forward mail in a timely fashion

-a professional service that will be your mailing address and mail forwarding service

-retain and name as agent a US immigration attorney; they will receive a copy of all of your USCIS notices

-USC returns to the US to manage her mail and local business

-a forwarding order from Mum's house to your UK address (least favorite for me)

Your USC is expected to be 'domiciled' in the US--not be a con tactless orphan. This is part of what qulifies her to sponsor your immigration.

Bear in mind that the only mail that should be coming from USCIS now is "NOA2". From there, the case is forwarded to NVC.

Changing your mailing address with CSC is not going to be a simple one-step process. Once you're "in", it is hard to change things. If you have the email address for the CSC in addition to a mailing address and a phone number (or a fax if you can get it) use as many of these methods as possible and include as much biographic and case information (A#, SS# etc) as you can to identify your correspondance. You may or may not get any type of confirmation of this activity. Changing addresses mid-case is often a problem-increaser. Be vigilant.

The number on the back of your check was not "wrong". It simply was not your WAC#.

From my reading, I see that the first form from the NVC is a "Choice of Agent". You will have a chance at that time to specifically choose the address your mailings from them go to. This CAN be an overseas address (expect delays due to local mail, but shouldn't be too bad with UK).

I cant understand why VJ isn't full of expatriate USC's in this same situation ? if they are not eligible for DCF, then do their files get marked up as 'undeliverable notice ?' when they file direct with the USA

When London cracked down on the turn-around DCF a couple/few years back, there were a few people that fell into the situation of not being allowed to file in London, but not really 'living' in the US either. A couple of experiences like yours, and people quickly realized that if they were going to send I-130 to a US Service Center, they had better use a US address, even if they were living abroad. Even my I-130 filed *abroad* was requested to have my US address on it.

I know that you do not like that it doesn't make sense to you. My UK fella says: That just the way things ARE. I hate it when he says that.

You have your on line case registration. You can keep an eye on your file and any progress. Unless you are planning to file I-F to pursue a K-3 visa, you do not *need* the NOA1. If you are planning to apply for a K-3 visa, pray tell why.

As always, I wish you peace of mind and a trouble-free visa process.

Good stuff Meuxna

Carolyn has mail forwarding from her post office in Wisconsin but USCIS stuff has a 'no forwarding' thing so gets returned.

No way am I going anywhere near K3 - I want to a 10 year unconditional green card on November 5th and then I can leave this stuff behind. I have been within a spit of my AOS interview after K1 in the past so doing it all again is taking its toll - I know what is up ahead....

It is such a pity that the UK USCIS/Embassy just say 'if you are UK resident less than 2 years -file in the US' and don't say that 'without a US address you are a dead duck'

Anyway Carolyn talked california into giving her the number and last night they took her mother's address over the phone and it has been touched yesterday! actually the website has a facility for changing the address. I totally take your point that any change of address is highly risky as their failure rate is so high -and so I am going to keep my UK owned house empty even though we are renting and living in another part of england - as we are scared of trying to change that address with USCIS.

It sounds like the VISA office in new Hampshire is somewhat easier to contact so we are hoping for an easier ride with them.

We were trying to be truthful in putting her UK address on the form as she is an official legal resident here - I suppose the only way to get a US address on file is with a covering letter at the start - or lie about your actual address..

Not sure about your comment that what I have put is inaccurate or scaring the punters as this is a factual record of what we have been through in the last 2 months by following instructions from london - it clearly says on their website that less than 2 year residents must file at the service center covering their last place of residence. We did - Nebraska . Then it went to california who rejected it and said file in London. then London rejected it and sent it to Nebraska and then California.. then California made a oho-hair because the address said UK...

I know the difference between domiciled and resident so I reckon we have that covered as Carolyn's furniture is in storage and she has her bank accounts/pensions etc intact in the US

We didn't do anything wrong with our application as far as I can see and our circumstances are far from unique as I know there are USC's in the UK with less than 2 years residency and have no idea that they have to use a US address - I have pm'd them in the recent past - I know there are others. I reckon this case applies to lots of people who are ready to file and they need to know what will happen.

If carolyn had not called California and found out that our file had been sat there for a month with a returned notice, we could have waited forever (or until they marked it expired). Both people on VJ and the London USCIS said 'just be patient' - and all the time it was held and the USCIS didn't contact us - our application had our UK address and 2 phone numbers but they couldn't be bothered.

Actually both the supervisor and the first agent carolyn spoke to had such bad english that she spent nearly 20 minutes having to spell common words even though she speaks very clearly - so it is a real struggle trying to explain the facts to them......what a nightmare this thing is...the last woman last night was talking about sending it back to London yet again for consular filing - (RD round trip) even though it was forwarded to them by London who said they wouldn't take it... if that happens you can book my padded cell right now...

by the way, does anyone have an email address for california csc in case it gets even worse - its the first time i have heard of the existence of such

alan

[Yodrak 7]

alan,

I've heard of this happening from time to time. It's a good example of a situation where an attorney can be useful for what might at first seem to be a simple and straightforward case. Attornies have designated contacts within the USCIS, not available to the general public, who they can contact to work out 'bugs' like this.

Yodrak

Story so far - we are both resident in the UK

Filed at Carolyn's last place of residence (Nebraska office covering Wisconsin) per USCIS London instructions.

They sent it to California who sent it back to us in The UK saying file in London

We file again in London and they send it to Nebraska who send it to California

The application has our UK address on it but with a covering letter saying it has to go to Nebraska but the house in Wisconsin is sold and please do not send ANY correspondence there - send it all to the UK

Ok now we wait a month eagerly greeting the mailman to get NOA1

Nothing

Yesterday Carolyn called California - a chap answered who was the supervisor but could hardly speak English.

He said the USCIS cannot send NOA1 to an address outside the US so they had sent it to the Wisconsin address even though they knew the house was sold and had new occupiers. It bounced from the US post office and they have put our case on hold. He can't send us a NOA1. If she had not phoned the application would have stayed on hold until it expired and nobody would have contacted us !

stalemate

He suggests we contact London USCIS on the fortune a minute line..

I will try on Monday but no doubt they wont speak to me as Carolyn is the petitioner (she will be at work)

Is it me or are this lot totally insane ? Why do they mail to an address they know is non existent and then fail to contact us at our stated address with 2 phone numbers when it is returned to them as undeliverable !!!!

We have been at this now since 9 January and getting no nearer to NOA1 !!!!

What is other people's experience with both being non US residents at the time of filing ? How did you get NOA 1 ? help we are sinking !!!!

alan

alan,

I've heard of this happening from time to time. It's a good example of a situation where an attorney can be useful for what might at first seem to be a simple and straightforward case. Attornies have designated contacts within the USCIS, not available to the general public, who they can contact to work out 'bugs' like this.

Yodrak

Story so far - we are both resident in the UK

Filed at Carolyn's last place of residence (Nebraska office covering Wisconsin) per USCIS London instructions.

They sent it to California who sent it back to us in The UK saying file in London

We file again in London and they send it to Nebraska who send it to California

The application has our UK address on it but with a covering letter saying it has to go to Nebraska but the house in Wisconsin is sold and please do not send ANY correspondence there - send it all to the UK

Ok now we wait a month eagerly greeting the mailman to get NOA1

Nothing

Yesterday Carolyn called California - a chap answered who was the supervisor but could hardly speak English.

He said the USCIS cannot send NOA1 to an address outside the US so they had sent it to the Wisconsin address even though they knew the house was sold and had new occupiers. It bounced from the US post office and they have put our case on hold. He can't send us a NOA1. If she had not phoned the application would have stayed on hold until it expired and nobody would have contacted us !

stalemate

He suggests we contact London USCIS on the fortune a minute line..

I will try on Monday but no doubt they wont speak to me as Carolyn is the petitioner (she will be at work)

Is it me or are this lot totally insane ? Why do they mail to an address they know is non existent and then fail to contact us at our stated address with 2 phone numbers when it is returned to them as undeliverable !!!!

We have been at this now since 9 January and getting no nearer to NOA1 !!!!

What is other people's experience with both being non US residents at the time of filing ? How did you get NOA 1 ? help we are sinking !!!!

alan

[Captain Oates 910]

thanks yodrak..

our previous experience of an attorney (last time we went through this in 2005), was really bad - I was telling him what documents he had to send and he said they were not necessary. So he applied without them and we picked up an RFE for those specific forms. With the first packet , he didn't send it for 2.5 weeks because his mother was ill and he was having a nervous breakdown...

When it started going slowly he said he didn't have any special contact with USCIS

Moral of the story is to research the prospective lawyer to see what he is like I suppose

perhaps VJ need a 'recommended attorneys' section where we can swap horror stories - i suppose that would be libel though !

anyway we are going to send a short letter to California to say now they have a US address on file, can they assure us that the issue is cleared and the case is in line to proceed without delay...... they didn't even know it had been sent to them by London USCIS !

perhaps they might even answer it - but to which address i have no idea...

I am a bit optimistic tonight as we have a case reference number and it is logged as feb 12th - so perhaps another 10 weeks or so we might be surprised with a case completed...in other words we probably haven't lost any time since feb 12th since they seem to just kick around the office until the 14 weeks or so goes by, then someone sits down with a cup of coffee and tries to find some technicality on which to refuse it - failing which it is approved.

I think it's going ok now.......it was touched yesterday and it doesnt say sent back to london yet again - I think so....

alan

[meauxna 15]

Carolyn has mail forwarding from her post office in Wisconsin but USCIS stuff has a 'no forwarding' thing so gets returned.

Not necessarily so. Again, one incident does not make a rule. We had all of our USCIS mail forwarded problem-free.

It is such a pity that the UK USCIS/Embassy just say 'if you are UK resident less than 2 years -file in the US' and don't say that 'without a US address you are a dead duck'

CIS has never been known for giving accurate information, or complete answers. They leave it up to you to learn/know how to file correctly in the US.

Anyway Carolyn talked california into giving her the number and last night they took her mother's address over the phone and it has been touched yesterday! actually the website has a facility for changing the address.

This new system may or may not change a mailing address. Some people have reported using it and getting a confirmation letter regarding the address change, so maybe it will work fine. However, I believe that it is orginally tied to online filing of form AR-11 which does NOT change your mailing address, but reports an alien's whereabouts for different purposes.

I totally take your point that any change of address is highly risky as their failure rate is so high -and so I am going to keep my UK owned house empty even though we are renting and living in another part of england - as we are scared of trying to change that address with USCIS.

Changing the beneficiary's address has not been a problem in the past; I would not be making a financially unattractive move based only on that information, myself.

Not sure about your comment that what I have put is inaccurate or scaring the punters as this is a factual record of what we have been through in the last 2 months by following instructions from london - it clearly says on their website that less than 2 year residents must file at the service center covering their last place of residence. We did - Nebraska . Then it went to california who rejected it and said file in London. then London rejected it and sent it to Nebraska and then California.. then California made a oho-hair because the address said UK...

It's my assertion that you should have used a US address for filing in the US, and that it is not "lying" to use a US mailing address even when temporarily resident abroad. I realise that this has truly been your experience---are you advocating that others do it the same way as you?

- and all the time it was held and the USCIS didn't contact us - our application had our UK address and 2 phone numbers but they couldn't be bothered.

Now you are re-stating that they 'held' your application? I thought you realised that isn't the case? Your mail was returned--by that time, your file is elsewhere in the building & probably has no idea (as much as files get 'ideas') that your NOA mail had been returned. find a recent post from HuskerKiev or an old one from me that explains what happens to your petitions once they're in the Service Center.

As for contacting you by phone, etc, I think you might be underestimating how many cases are being dealt with at any time.. there has never been a history of SC workers phoning you to tell you your mail was returned. People's cases can and do get closed all the time for this sort of error---the responsibility is on us as petitioners to supply the right info to them. I was gobsmacked to have a precious original copy of our marriage certificate returned to us by mail by INS, but that was out of the one-person office in Athens. I never expected to see it again, and certainly not out of a SC---the scale is too much!

Actually both the supervisor and the first agent carolyn spoke to had such bad english that she spent nearly 20 minutes having to spell common words even though she speaks very clearly - so it is a real struggle trying to explain the facts to them......what a nightmare this thing is...the last woman last night was talking about sending it back to London yet again for consular filing - (RD round trip) even though it was forwarded to them by London who said they wouldn't take it... if that happens you can book my padded cell right now...

by the way, does anyone have an email address for california csc in case it gets even worse - its the first time i have heard of the existence of such

alan

I can easily imagine how a worker in the CSC would be confused by this being laid out over the phone this way. Carolyn might try cutting the extra explanation next time and simply say that she filed an I-130 and didn't use a US address.

Try searching the Service Centers forum for the CSC email addy.. the search at the bottom of the front page works best.

Edited March 13, 2007 by meauxna

[Captain Oates 910]

Thanks for your thoughts on this meauxna

As Carolyn actually gave the address over the phone, rather than using the address update link on the USCIS website, and as the file was shown as touched afterwards, i am hoping that bit went ok...

I know you state that we have to learn all these little foibles of the USCIS and its our responsibility to do it before filing, but really its horrible for the first timers and all the hints are on VJ and not on the USCIS site ( government of the people, by the people, for the people ?) - I am an old hand at this and i am getting badly caught even before NOA1 - so what chance the total green horns ?

I started the post as a cry for help for us - but I think its really useful for others reading it before they file..

It has always struck me that the posted guides are fair enough but all these tricks of the trade are not laid out in one place for people to learn - for instance the public email addresses of London USCIS and California are, I am sure you are right, scattered all over VJ and the problem that we have hit must have been explained x times in the last x years - but we all have to search and search and then we are still not sure... wouldn't it be nice to have a posted list ?

For instance I was in the depths of despair (again) when the US social security spelled my name wrongly and I thought i wouldn't be able to get a SS number and insurance or a driving license until it was sorted out - MD Young found the regulation which says if they spell it only one letter wrong they should accept it - i showed them that and they did - instant elation ! i saw other vjers with the same thing - so wouldn't the inside tricks on SS as a pinned item be great ?

However my point is that all these tricks need setting out on a pinned guide - not the official system but the real world of little hints and tricks which are so important... such as james' short cuts which i am going to have a bash at...

yes i know its all on here but its scattered far and wide and recent and ancient - and no i'm not skilled enough to do the job..

I really don't think there are that many tricks - its just that we all keep making the same mistakes so VJ is so repetative...and so fragmented

a book called 'the essential secret tips to achieving US immigration' would be a sell out

any volunteers ? !!!!

alan

[meauxna 15]

I know of one person who has written such a document.. the problem is, the tips n tricks change all the time.

I wanted the same thing as you, so I wrote the DCF Guide to make it easier for people to do. Ewok published it for us. Other people wrote other Guides. Sometimes, someone will update them.

I think the thing that people don't appreciate is that there is no VJ other than the collective 'us'. There is no board of directors, or staf of updaters. I no longer have the time/energy to maintain a number of FAQs and links for people.. this helpful information IS out there, but it seems to be hard to get folks to contribute on a voluntary basis. Once it's written, it's hard to get people to read it. There is a generation of people I've noticed that stick with the helping but I see fewer and fewer taking up the reins. I guess that simply leaves new filers where many of us were when starting. MDYoung finally got pissed off with the attitude from new people here who behaved as if they were entitled to having an answering service on board here, and then giving him sh!t for his answers (which come from The Book by the way).

Perhaps it is a problem with no cure.