The other side of the raids..

[Dr_LHA 3]

Hehehe yeah, those overpaid lecturers at Made-Up Nonexistent University.

Thats where all the trailer trash who have lost their jobs due to people with H-1Bs taking their jobs at Wal-mart went right?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

That being said...if cops can raid crackhouses, whorehouses, illegal gambling houses, etc., I don't see any reason why if a prior investigation warrants a raid on illegal alien houses that ICE can't do that too.

Because these individuals weren't illegal aliens. They were US citizens. And the only "prior investigation" that was done was to learn that they are Hispanic individuals.

Interesting that the article from the SPLC is missing any and all information on how many illegals that raid actually turned up or what prior investigation has led ICE to conduct the raid. Probably pieces of information that would be devastating to their "case".

I cheer the ICE for every illegal they turn up and send home. They've got to be more active. And citizens harboring, employing or otherwise assisting illegals really have no right to complain about being in the middle of any raid. They actually ought to be prosecuted for aiding those that willingly and knowingly break many laws.

but how do you know this american family was harboring illegals? what if they just happened to live in the same trailer park because they want to be close to the hispanic community? and, the landlord was not assisting illegals, he was charging them to live there.. and to my knowledge landlords don't conduct immigration status checks when someone wants to rent their places..

People that live, by choice or not, in crime- and drug infested neighborhoods are subject to having their neighboroods raided all the same. I don't see anyone suing the DEA for trying to enforce the laws. Why are the illegals and their neighbors better than other lawbreakers and their neighbors?

indeed they are illegal in teh country, that doesn't mean they're committing a crime ever second of their life within the USA, yeah, they entered illegaly, but does that mean that they are to be considered forever criminals?

They are breaking the law when entering (or failing to leave), when stealing an identity, when working, driving, etc. Their very presence is illegal, so, yes, they break the law every second of their illegal presence. forever criminals? No. They can leave.

Actually, people who have not been deported previously break the law at the moment they enter the US. Not at any other time (unless they steal someone's identity, have false documents, drive without a license, etc.).

The actual crime is called "Improper Entry by an Alien" and is defined as "Entering the United States at a time and/or place other than that designated by the Department of Homeland Security in order to avoid inspection according to immigration laws."

So no, it is not a crime to be in the United States illegally unless you have previously been deported.

They're continuously breaking the law. They sustain themselves somehow. That means they have an income of some sort which they derive illegally. They derive it illegally because they have no legal means of deriving an income when they are here illegally. You can split all the hair you want but there ain't an illegal here that ain't breaking the law.

Besides, if simply being present here w/o proper visa is not breaking the law (it actually is and it's called "unlawful presence" aka "overstay"), then what's the grounds for putting them in deportation proceedings? If their illegal presence ain't it then what is?

Edited December 23, 2006 by ET-US2004

[Alex+R 0]

This video is actually about Canada, but I thought it was still funny and relevant.

[sparkofcreation 0]

That being said...if cops can raid crackhouses, whorehouses, illegal gambling houses, etc., I don't see any reason why if a prior investigation warrants a raid on illegal alien houses that ICE can't do that too.

Because these individuals weren't illegal aliens. They were US citizens. And the only "prior investigation" that was done was to learn that they are Hispanic individuals.

Interesting that the article from the SPLC is missing any and all information on how many illegals that raid actually turned up or what prior investigation has led ICE to conduct the raid. Probably pieces of information that would be devastating to their "case".

I cheer the ICE for every illegal they turn up and send home. They've got to be more active. And citizens harboring, employing or otherwise assisting illegals really have no right to complain about being in the middle of any raid. They actually ought to be prosecuted for aiding those that willingly and knowingly break many laws.

but how do you know this american family was harboring illegals? what if they just happened to live in the same trailer park because they want to be close to the hispanic community? and, the landlord was not assisting illegals, he was charging them to live there.. and to my knowledge landlords don't conduct immigration status checks when someone wants to rent their places..

People that live, by choice or not, in crime- and drug infested neighborhoods are subject to having their neighboroods raided all the same. I don't see anyone suing the DEA for trying to enforce the laws. Why are the illegals and their neighbors better than other lawbreakers and their neighbors?

indeed they are illegal in teh country, that doesn't mean they're committing a crime ever second of their life within the USA, yeah, they entered illegaly, but does that mean that they are to be considered forever criminals?

They are breaking the law when entering (or failing to leave), when stealing an identity, when working, driving, etc. Their very presence is illegal, so, yes, they break the law every second of their illegal presence. forever criminals? No. They can leave.

Actually, people who have not been deported previously break the law at the moment they enter the US. Not at any other time (unless they steal someone's identity, have false documents, drive without a license, etc.).

The actual crime is called "Improper Entry by an Alien" and is defined as "Entering the United States at a time and/or place other than that designated by the Department of Homeland Security in order to avoid inspection according to immigration laws."

So no, it is not a crime to be in the United States illegally unless you have previously been deported.

They're continuously breaking the law. They sustain themselves somehow. That means they have an income of some sort which they derive illegally. They derive it illegally because they have no legal means of deriving an income when they are here illegally. You can split all the hair you want but there ain't an illegal here that ain't breaking the law.

Besides, if simply being present here w/o proper visa is not breaking the law (it actually is and it's called "unlawful presence" aka "overstay"), then what's the grounds for putting them in deportation proceedings? If their illegal presence ain't it then what is?

*sigh* Immigration proceedings are administrative (i.e. run by the Executive Branch). They are handled by administrative law judges. They are not criminal proceedings and have nothing to do with the criminal-justice system (i.e. the Judicial Branch), just as worker's compensation court is administrative (Executive Branch) and has nothing to do with civil court (Judicial Branch). Certain aspects of administrative laws are codified into the criminal chapters of the United States Code (promulgated by the Legislative Branch--this is your basic system of checks and balances at work), but not all of them. So yes, it is unlawful to be here without permission. But that does not mean that it is a crime or that it is illegal. It is illegal to enter without inspection or to re-enter without permission. Unlawful and illegal are not the same thing.

"Unlawful"="Not as required by law"

"Illegal"="specifically prohibited by law"

You can call it splitting hairs if you want. I call it 8 USC §§1325-1326 (Title 8, Sections 1325 and 1326 of the United States Code).

Edited December 24, 2006 by sparkofcreation

[sparkofcreation 0]

Blast it, my Internet went wonky and I lost the rest of that reply. Here it is:

And there certainly are ways to support oneself while living in the US without having legal status, such as being supported by spouse or family, or living off income earned from renting or selling property overseas (if you are not a resident for tax purposes).

But I said nothing in my original comment about other derivative illegal or unlawful actions. In fact, I specifically said that I was referring only to the question of whether being here without status was illegal or not and that the crime is committed at the time of entry, not at the time of being here, unless one has been previously deported. And I also said that this assumes that no other crimes were being committed. Which is possible, although you are of course right that most undocumented immigrants are committing some crime by not paying taxes (depending on their income, that's not always a crime of course), having false documents, etc.

I did mis-write in my original comment. I wrote "it is not a crime to be in the US illegally..." and it should have been "it is not a crime to be in the US unlawfully..."

Edited December 24, 2006 by sparkofcreation

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I did mis-write in my original comment. I wrote "it is not a crime to be in the US illegally..." and it should have been "it is not a crime to be in the US unlawfully..."

It is, however, against the law to be in the US unlawfully. Which is what I said originally. Being here unlawfully in and by iteslf may not be a criminal infraction of the law but an infraction of the law it is. And yet, what tiny percentage of illegals are not making money here? Or let me re-phrase: What tiny percentage of illegals are not coming here to make money? Remember, that's why they say they come in the first place - to support their families. Not the other way around. And they're not talking about spiritually supporting their families either. They're talking cold, hard cash. The direction of the flow of US Dollars clearly proves this point. But again, you're free to split hair.

[peejay 327]

*sigh* Immigration proceedings are administrative (i.e. run by the Executive Branch). They are handled by administrative law judges. They are not criminal proceedings and have nothing to do with the criminal-justice system (i.e. the Judicial Branch), just as worker's compensation court is administrative (Executive Branch) and has nothing to do with civil court (Judicial Branch). Certain aspects of administrative laws are codified into the criminal chapters of the United States Code (promulgated by the Legislative Branch--this is your basic system of checks and balances at work), but not all of them. So yes, it is unlawful to be here without permission. But that does not mean that it is a crime or that it is illegal. It is illegal to enter without inspection or to re-enter without permission. Unlawful and illegal are not the same thing.

"Unlawful"="Not as required by law"

"Illegal"="specifically prohibited by law"

You can call it splitting hairs if you want. I call it 8 USC §§1325-1326 (Title 8, Sections 1325 and 1326 of the United States Code).

Splitting hairs or not...the real agenda of the Mexican cheerleading squad for splitting hairs is to obstruct any attempt to enforce the law. They want total amnesty and open borders for their particular ethnic group.

They don't believe they have to follow the laws that are not convenient for them or their agenda and whine, cry, and moan when their chickens come to roost.

ICE does have to obey the law to arrest, detain, and deport them. But I believe a lot of these lawsuits and indignant protestations following these and other raids are just attempts at propoganda to promote the Amnesty / Open Borders agenda for their particular ethnic group.

80+% of the illegal aliens are Hispanic and it is quit noticable that so are a vast majority of their apologists. But, of course, race has nothing to do with their position, views, or agenda. But somehow enforcing laws that are not written to be "race specific" and apply to everyone is somehow racist.

Talk about twisted logic. Most of the illegal aliens are Hispanic and most of the arrests are Hispanic. That's a fact.

[Dr_LHA 3]

Splitting hairs or not...the real agenda of the Mexican cheerleading squad for splitting hairs is to obstruct any attempt to enforce the law. They want total amnesty and open borders for their particular ethnic group.

They don't believe they have to follow the laws that are not convenient for them or their agenda and whine, cry, and moan when their chickens come to roost.

Every group of illegal immigrants do this, not just hispanics. For example:

http://www.irishlobbyusa.org/

Who's argument seems to be "You should make us legal even though we're illegally present in the USA, because we're Irish."

Edited December 24, 2006 by dr_lha

[peezey 0]

Splitting hairs or not...the real agenda of the Mexican cheerleading squad for splitting hairs is to obstruct any attempt to enforce the law. They want total amnesty and open borders for their particular ethnic group.

They don't believe they have to follow the laws that are not convenient for them or their agenda and whine, cry, and moan when their chickens come to roost.

Every group of illegal immigrants do this, not just hispanics. For example:

http://www.irishlobbyusa.org/

Who's argument seems to be "You should make us legal even though we're illegally present in the USA, because we're Irish."

You mis-quoted him, he couldn't set aside his racism long enough to write "hispanics."

Peejay, just because all you see is brown, doesn't mean they are all Mexican.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If you were a law abiding American Citizen of hispanic appearance / descent and were subject to this kind of treatment - why would you not sue?

Is it unreasonable for a person who has committed no crime, pays their taxes etc to accept being tarred with the "illegal immigrant" brush just because of the way they look?

Seems to me that's just another way of justifying racial prejudices... What should they do? "Go somewhere else" I suppose

[Dr_LHA 3]

You mis-quoted him, he couldn't set aside his racism long enough to write "hispanics."

I cut and paste exactly from what he said, so no, I didn't mis-quote (sic) him. Someone needs a dictionary.

If you were a law abiding American Citizen of hispanic appearance / descent and were subject to this kind of treatment - why would you not sue?

Is it unreasonable for a person who has committed no crime, pays their taxes etc to accept being tarred with the "illegal immigrant" brush just because of the way they look?

Seems to me that's just another way of justifying racial prejudices... What should they do? "Go somewhere else" I suppose

o/\o <- That's a high five BTW.

Edited December 24, 2006 by dr_lha

[peejay 327]

You mis-quoted him, he couldn't set aside his racism long enough to write "hispanics."

Peejay, just because all you see is brown, doesn't mean they are all Mexican.

Thowing out the race card to somehow try to gain the moral high road is bogus, lame, and deceptive.

When I refer to the Mexican cheerleading squad it is refering to the cadre of VJers from Mexico that continually and habitually make this a racial issue.

But the fact remains that 80+% of illegal aliens are Hispanic and roughly 55% of that is from Mexico. Draw your own conclusions, but don't whine about racism when the facts speak for themselves.

[peezey 0]

Pardon me, your paraphrasing is quite different than what he said. Hispanics are not all Mexican.

Edited December 24, 2006 by peezey

[peezey 0]

but from the moment i got a drivers license, i have my ID with me all the time... its in my purse, which is with me at home and anywhere i go... so if someone wanted to raid my house to see if there are illegals, there arent any and i can prove who i am with ease, so come on in and i will show you... if you have nothing to hide, there is no reason to get indignant and upset... if you do, then the govt will think that you DO have something to hide and will press matters even further... if you do have someone staying under your roof with you, i would think that you would have to know that person well enough to know if they are here legally or not... i would think you should if you are going to open your home and trust them in that deep of a way (no matter what ethnicity)

so, no... i wouldnt go around asking anyone at all if they are in this country legally... its not my job and i couldnt do anything about it anyway... only the govt can... so, if the govt asks for ID, if you have it, show it... its fairly simple...

if i am driving and get pulled over, i expect to have to show ID and registration of the vehicle... if i try to use my credit card or go to the bank, i am asked for ID all the time... does it bother me sometimes? yep... it can be annoying... but do i understand why they do it? yep... so i dig out my wallet and show it

There is every reason to be upset. Which liberties should we dismiss next? If it's OK for your house to be raided if you have nothing to hide, then is it OK, should you find yourself in court defending against, say, a wrongful charge of harboring an illegal, if you aren't tried by a jury of your peers? Or maybe the burden of proof should switch to you, the defendant this time, just because you have nothing to hide? Or maybe you should be incarcerated for several months awaiting the trial even though you have no priors and are a respected member of your community? Or maybe the trial should start out with the presumption of guilt, and you have to figure out how to prove your innocence?

You give up one, the rest are up for grabs.

Edited December 24, 2006 by peezey

[Dr_LHA 3]

Pardon me, your paraphrasing is quite different than what he said. Hispanics are not all Mexican.

No, I didn't paraphrase him either, keep going with that dictionary.

I'm fully aware that not all Hispanics are Mexican, however Mexicans are Hispanic!