Divorce, Hindsight, and Doing the Immigration Dance Again...

[kisschick1976 0]

Thanks Alice and Wog and KC and Becs for your replies...

Kisschick...I'm not downing ppl outside the US...I'd have to be crazy to do that! I'm just saying the whole LDR aspect sometimes can skewer what is to what you want it to be...that's all....and wondering how to make sure you really know someone even thru limited contact....I'm not saying to never get married again, or never marry a 'foreigner', no.

Becs, I made adjustments....I felt I used poor judgement in certain aspects the first time around, and you can better believe I made sure I didn't do that again....that's my point & the fact of the distance doesn't give the partner the benefit of seeing for him/herself. I don't think anyone here can d

Do you not feel that people can make those same 'adjustments' in mate selection in an LDR?

Apparently not

So, even though I (or anyone else here in a similar or hypothetical situation) also feel I/we may have used poor judgement in certain aspects the first time around, you are saying that we are incapable of making the same adjustments and learning process in selecting a subsequent mate, LDR or not?

My situation has some similar qualities to Wog Boy and you thanked him.

My town has a population of only 220,000 people, more than half of which are women and I have dated quite a few men around here. If I had an aversion to dating outside my city (a basic LDR, not just an overseas LDR) that's really limiting my prospects. Why would I purposely limit myself to only 100,000 men when there's billions to choose from?

You seem to be ignoring that some of us are saying, "You cannot control who you fall in love with." Me personally, I did not wake up one morning and say, "Hey I think I will look for another LDR." I happened to see his picture, I happened to read his interests and I set out to make a new friend. That friendship turned into love a long time ago. It just so happens he lives in England. Now we are lucky in that we have a lot more options available immigration wise when the time comes, but I wouldn't have turned away from this wonderful man if he just happened to be from Romania like my ex. I'd rather know the person inside than to be concerned with his place on the map.

All I'm saying is the physicality is a hinderance - especially with a potential mate who is putting a fake persona forth and you're not around to see that person for who (s)he really is

So it's not possible for someone to do the same thing locally? I beg to differ. I had someone years ago who was in relationships with other women and none of us knew about eachother until after he moved away and dumped us all. This was with someone who was in my own town, we even worked together. LDR or not, all relationships have the same risks, every time you start a new one you are opening up yourself to a possible world of hurt. Just because one person did you wrong you can't just turn your back on the world. You have to learn what can be learned from that situation, dust yourself off and try again.

I learned a lesson from being married to Anton, He lied so hard to everyone; his friends and family are still shocked, everybody believed him. Believe me I thought about this long and hard as I was falling for Jonny. We are in no hurry to rush into things, as I said earlier, we are happy just being in love.

You do have a point about the length of stay for visits. I stayed in England 8 days this past spring (Jeez it was cold), he will be here soon for 10 days (a nice 80F/26C Thanksgiving) , but next spring I will be staying over there for just over a month. Who knows, maybe he will want to come here again for Thanksgiving and his birthday again next year. I do want to know that we are fully compatible with living together before we make any major decisions as this was an issue in my marriage. So yes, I will agree with you there.

I just disagree on making a snap judgement on whether or not we should ever have another LDR again after one fails. Why limit yourself? That and saying that we are incapable of making the right choice. I'm intelligent enough to learn from my mistakes and move ahead.

[Caladan 19]

I do think that the 90 day deadline to marry a K1 is not long enough. I think it should be 180 days. I am very curious to know what percentage of K1 marriages end.

I agree 100%...90 days is not enough. I would prefer 180 as well.

I disagree; this isn't a getting-to-know-each-other-better visa, it's we're-ready-to-be-married-make-it-legal visa. I recognize that it's not always easy to travel and to get to know each other, but it's not supposed to be Tourist Visa Plus.

LisaD, I see what you're saying, but I don't think the evidence bears you out. There are certainly plenty of LDR couples/marriage broker situations that end badly. But there are certainly plenty of people who live together before marriage who wind up getting divorced, too. It's not a guarantee, either.

It's also not always that the LDR people went into it blind with rosy-colored goggles on (christ that metaphor hit the fan). Some of the changes that make people roll their eyes and say 'oh, must have been t3h internet! n00bz!', but a lot of those changes occur in any relationship over time. The problem could have nothing at all to do with distance, and I'd be more worried about diagnosing the problem that focusing on the cosmetics.

And not all of us just play house for two weeks on holiday and decide to get engaged. Situations vary a lot. Would I date again long distance if something happened? I'd prefer not to, because it sucks. But I wouldn't write it off based on a faulty inference that the internet was the problem.

(If anything's the problem, it's because he's stubborn and I'm neurotic.)

[PlatyPius 5]

Sian and I have only physically been together for just about a month (10 days + 2 weeks and a few days). During her visits here neither of us was putting on a happy face, acting like we were on holiday, or any such thing. She cleaned, I went to work, I cooked, she cooked, we went out to eat a few times, we watched DVDs, she read a book, we had a bit of a "disagreement" (money stuff, lack of health insurance in the US, etc)

The stress of going through the K1 process, dealing with IMBRA, the situation of the visa not being delivered and fears of being jobless and homeless because of that were just as bad, if not worse, than any "real life" situations we might find ourselves in. We made it through that. Admittedly, neither of us were at our best, and we can both say that we've "seen" each other when times were bad.

I know how Sian reacts to stress, and she knows how I do. When we're upset, we have similar reactions; we both tend to shut up and wander off for a bit to cool off.

Would I do it again? If it were Sian, then yes I go through all of this again. If something were to happen with Sian and I.....no, I wouldn't. Marriage gets one chance with me. IF there is ever a time "after Sian", then I'll go through it alone. That's a big if. I don't believe in divorce. That's why I'm 38 and getting married for the first (and last) time.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

My grandfather, who was in WW1 and didn't marry until age 40 had corresponded with his future wife (my grandmother) - and she was a recent immigrant from Ireland.

Courtship can happen over distance just as valid as having them by your side. I think there are pros and cons to any way courtship happens.

Lisa, you said that you both lived together for years - statitics show that couples who live together before marriage have a higher divorce rate. My point is that there doesn't seem to be any magic way of courtship that ensures a lasting marriage. The elements of a successful courtship can and do exist in LDR's as with any courtship - good communication, compatibility, intimacy, trust, honesty, common set of values, etc.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[rebeccajo 14]

All I'm saying is the physicality is a hinderance - especially with a potential mate who is putting a fake persona forth and you're not around to see that person for who (s)he really is

Well, yeah, if the person is a liar, or a user, or maybe has a mental illness.

It sounds like you're saying that most of us (including yourself) would be too trusting to judge someone's character without the benefit of living in the same place.

No Becca, that's not what I'm saying.

One more time:

There have been how many posts on here that after the fiancee gets here '(s)he is not what I thought (s)he was' Part of that is because SINCE there is a distance, a lot is depended on what you think/hear instead of what you see. When that happens that someone is 'completely different', how does this come into play with finding love in an LDR - again where you don't have the benefit of seeing for yourself?

As far as *my* scenario...yes, there has been much time where D and I were apart. However, before getting to this step...FOR ME...I felt it vital for us to live 'real life' together before deiciding to commit my life. Not all the happy-happy holiday stuff...a new broom sweeps clean, yanno? That's just the way I think. Trust, for me is earned the hard way What can I say, I'm a cynic

Well if that's the kind of info you were looking for I think you should have phrased your poll differently.

And yeah I do think you're being a bit cynical. You've got intelligent people in this thread telling you their story and you kind of make it seem like they are....well.....dim.

I don't think you need to change your perspective for your personal life. Whatever works for you works. But you reference the posts about 'oh he or she isn't what I thought they were'. What about the opposite type of posts?

It just sounds like you aren't giving any credence to couples being able to figure out their relationship without having the benefit of similar geography.

Well, perhaps you're right, I should have phrased this poll differently, but don't project that I'm trying to make people feel stupid. You don't know what my intentions are, Becca...so for you to project that they're some kind of sinister motives is just plain wrong. I'm sorry, but that's the absolute truth.

ETA I just read my initial post, and I'm going to stand by it....I don't think I would have phrased it any differently.

Well fiddlesticks. I wasn't implying you had any sinister motives and I'm sorry if that's how you read it.

I do think you might have been hoping that some of the 'rose-colored goggles' posters would come to this thread. My perspective is that won't happen - their vision is to blurred.

Sian and I have only physically been together for just about a month (10 days + 2 weeks and a few days). During her visits here neither of us was putting on a happy face, acting like we were on holiday, or any such thing. She cleaned, I went to work, I cooked, she cooked, we went out to eat a few times, we watched DVDs, she read a book, we had a bit of a "disagreement" (money stuff, lack of health insurance in the US, etc)

During Wes' first visit, I took time from work. 3 weeks. And he took his time off with pay. We said we were going to file but still there must have been something in both of us wanting to 'make sure'.....

So he took 5 weeks without pay (ended up being 9) and came back over. This time we did the 'normal life' thing. I worked, etc. And like Larry's saying, yeah we had a disagreement or two. He openly told people this was a sort of 'test' to make see if he would be comfortable in America. He was adult enough to realize that 'coupleness' couldn't sustain us if he was going to be miserable here.

It DEFINITELY would be better to have more time than LDR's give us. I'm not going to dispute that for a moment. The distance is horrid, and that was part of Lisa's initial post. The loneliness - and I don't think any of us would go looking for that on purpose again.

Lisa, I think you need to give yourself more 'relationship credit' as far as being able to suss out someone's character. You're not stupid by a long shot, and while you say 'trust has to be earned' - well I just think you are a bright woman who knows yourself and you would be able to tell if a man was being less than honest with you. 5 miles away or 5000.

No rose colored goggles on you! Healthy, I think.

Edited November 4, 2006 by rebeccajo

[Identity 0]

Thanks Alice and Wog and KC and Becs for your replies...

Kisschick...I'm not downing ppl outside the US...I'd have to be crazy to do that! I'm just saying the whole LDR aspect sometimes can skewer what is to what you want it to be...that's all....and wondering how to make sure you really know someone even thru limited contact....I'm not saying to never get married again, or never marry a 'foreigner', no.

Becs, I made adjustments....I felt I used poor judgement in certain aspects the first time around, and you can better believe I made sure I didn't do that again....that's my point

Do you not feel that people can make those same 'adjustments' in mate selection in an LDR?

Apparently not

So, even though I (or anyone else here in a similar or hypothetical situation) also feel I/we may have used poor judgement in certain aspects the first time around, you are saying that we are incapable of making the same adjustments and learning process in selecting a subsequent mate, LDR or not?

My situation has some similar qualities to Wog Boy and you thanked him.

My town has a population of only 220,000 people, more than half of which are women and I have dated quite a few men around here. If I had an aversion to dating outside my city (a basic LDR, not just an overseas LDR) that's really limiting my prospects. Why would I purposely limit myself to only 100,000 men when there's billions to choose from?

You seem to be ignoring that some of us are saying, "You cannot control who you fall in love with." Me personally, I did not wake up one morning and say, "Hey I think I will look for another LDR." I happened to see his picture, I happened to read his interests and I set out to make a new friend. That friendship turned into love a long time ago. It just so happens he lives in England. Now we are lucky in that we have a lot more options available immigration wise when the time comes, but I wouldn't have turned away from this wonderful man if he just happened to be from Romania like my ex. I'd rather know the person inside than to be concerned with his place on the map.

I don't think your situation is similar to mine at all.

Did he really lie to you, or is that just your version of the events? I say this because I was to find out later, only after returning with the visa, that the USC didn't really want to marry me after all. Then began the process of fabricating lies and deception, to create excuses and reasons for "sending that foreigner back home." Those lies still exist today: "He lied to me, used me and took advantage of me." I guess some people will try to rationalise their own behaviour with irrational thoughts.

I've forgiven her, but the experience has been such a burning one that I will keep my wits about me next time.

Edited November 5, 2006 by Identity

[tmma 467]

During Wes' first visit, I took time from work. 3 weeks. And he took his time off with pay. We said we were going to file but still there must have been something in both of us wanting to 'make sure'.....

So he took 5 weeks without pay (ended up being 9) and came back over. This time we did the 'normal life' thing. I worked, etc. And like Larry's saying, yeah we had a disagreement or two. He openly told people this was a sort of 'test' to make see if he would be comfortable in America. He was adult enough to realize that 'coupleness' couldn't sustain us if he was going to be miserable here....

It DEFINITELY would be better to have more time than LDR's give us.

Becca forgive my curiosity-but

-on your time line it says Wes came back on 14th May for 5 weeks for ..."normal life..test...etc etc" yet you filed on the 23 May....like 9 days......

Anyway- to answer Lisa's original question " would I do it again?'...a HUGE NO!

Lots of reasons for that and most of them obvious-but believe it or not " trust" was not one of them. I can suss people out fairly well too and it wouldn't make a difference if Mark was Dutch or American-no trust--no relationship........

We are a very loving couple, but eventually you have to face the nitty gritty of life and see how that person handles it...imo.

Us, we too took our time. Made lots of visits and spent those visits living " normal life" not the "vacation thing" too....

Mark was leaving ALOT behind in Holland and I too am making a HUGE commitment, so we BOTH had to be sure in our own ways for whatever reasons....It took longer, and it was MORE EXPENSIVE, but ( and I just know lots of people are going to disagree here and that's OK for them, I am talking about ME)---FOR US, that is how WE BOTH wanted it. There was much to organize both in Holland and here. I am #######, so I had to be sure stuff like my health insurance covered him/car insurance/he found a job and will start work as soon as his GC is here/ I HAD to have all those things checked...For him, he wanted to see how he would like it here so he had numerous long visits as the VWP allows.That's just us-those things are not romantic to talk about-true. Realistic-yes.

Would I do a LDR again? NOPE!

Do I care if that cancels out 50 bazillion men if Mark and I do not work out? NOPE.

[Fandango 1,440]

long reply from me coming

[Identity 0]

During Wes' first visit, I took time from work. 3 weeks. And he took his time off with pay. We said we were going to file but still there must have been something in both of us wanting to 'make sure'.....

So he took 5 weeks without pay (ended up being 9) and came back over. This time we did the 'normal life' thing. I worked, etc. And like Larry's saying, yeah we had a disagreement or two. He openly told people this was a sort of 'test' to make see if he would be comfortable in America. He was adult enough to realize that 'coupleness' couldn't sustain us if he was going to be miserable here....

It DEFINITELY would be better to have more time than LDR's give us.

I can suss people out fairly well too

AND...

I am #######,

[tmma 467]

During Wes' first visit, I took time from work. 3 weeks. And he took his time off with pay. We said we were going to file but still there must have been something in both of us wanting to 'make sure'.....

So he took 5 weeks without pay (ended up being 9) and came back over. This time we did the 'normal life' thing. I worked, etc. And like Larry's saying, yeah we had a disagreement or two. He openly told people this was a sort of 'test' to make see if he would be comfortable in America. He was adult enough to realize that 'coupleness' couldn't sustain us if he was going to be miserable here....

It DEFINITELY would be better to have more time than LDR's give us.

I can suss people out fairly well too

AND...

I am #######,

get ur mind out of the gutter you know what I mean.

Edited November 5, 2006 by tmma

[Identity 0]

During Wes' first visit, I took time from work. 3 weeks. And he took his time off with pay. We said we were going to file but still there must have been something in both of us wanting to 'make sure'.....

So he took 5 weeks without pay (ended up being 9) and came back over. This time we did the 'normal life' thing. I worked, etc. And like Larry's saying, yeah we had a disagreement or two. He openly told people this was a sort of 'test' to make see if he would be comfortable in America. He was adult enough to realize that 'coupleness' couldn't sustain us if he was going to be miserable here....

It DEFINITELY would be better to have more time than LDR's give us.

I can suss people out fairly well too

AND...

I am #######,

get ur mind out of the gutter you know what I mean.

You misunderstood my point. Can you really trust your own instincts? By being "#######", you could actually be resisting something that would otherwise be incredibly beneficial in the long-term.

Edited November 5, 2006 by Identity

[tmma 467]

During Wes' first visit, I took time from work. 3 weeks. And he took his time off with pay. We said we were going to file but still there must have been something in both of us wanting to 'make sure'.....

So he took 5 weeks without pay (ended up being 9) and came back over. This time we did the 'normal life' thing. I worked, etc. And like Larry's saying, yeah we had a disagreement or two. He openly told people this was a sort of 'test' to make see if he would be comfortable in America. He was adult enough to realize that 'coupleness' couldn't sustain us if he was going to be miserable here....

It DEFINITELY would be better to have more time than LDR's give us.

I can suss people out fairly well too

AND...

I am #######,

get ur mind out of the gutter you know what I mean.

You misunderstood my point. Can you really trust your own instincts? By being "#######", you could actually be resisting something that would otherwise be something incredibly beneficial in the long-term.

You are taking my post out of context there are 2 seperate trains of thought.

Me being "####### retentive" refers not to my selection process but to how we tackled his immigration and the practicalities of living in the USA.

I do trust my ability to suss people out-I do go with my gut; would I have agreed to marry Mark if I had not set eyes on him or only spent a couple of weeks together?-NO- FOR ME that just would not happen.

[Identity 0]

Some people can really get caught up in the internet romance, including myself. The internet is a very seductive medium. What would normally be an undesirable character can be seen as being highly desirable. With such an incomplete picture, and the fact that many of us are romantics, we have no other option but to fill in the gaps with our own fantasies.

I agree - 180 days is better than 90 days. If only because it gives more time to see the other person.

Then the reality presents itself, but because we have already involved ourselves and invested in building a relationship, we may be reticent about turning out backs. We may see something in the person that makes us cringe. If I knew then what I know now about that person, I would never have given that person anything.

Now, I know more about what I want in a relationship - and the types of women to avoid.

[Fandango 1,440]

My grandfather, who was in WW1 and didn't marry until age 40 had corresponded with his future wife (my grandmother) - and she was a recent immigrant from Ireland.

Courtship can happen over distance just as valid as having them by your side. I think there are pros and cons to any way courtship happens.

Lisa, you said that you both lived together for years - statitics show that couples who live together before marriage have a higher divorce rate. My point is that there doesn't seem to be any magic way of courtship that ensures a lasting marriage. The elements of a successful courtship can and do exist in LDR's as with any courtship - good communication, compatibility, intimacy, trust, honesty, common set of values, etc.

Steven, I'm not sat here trying to debate whether statistics are on my side or not. I brought my history up for two reasons: if I'm asking people to talk about their situations, it'd be rude to not do the same and 2- since I'm asking a question, I'm trying to illustrate my history for better understanding of my perspective. I've never once asked what makes a marriage successful, so I don't understand that response either. I also never claimed that an LDR isn't 'as valid'....hell, I'm in one myself, that would be preposterous!!!! I asked a question...would someone petition another SO provided their current relationship failed. Don't read into that, I'm not projecting. I read a lot on here where the one doesn't work out...due to being 'different' than portrayed, and the next thing you know, that poster is petitioning another SO. So how does the behavior get modified to make sure you KNOW the other?

Kisschick, my apologies for not thanking you for your contribution...i was scrolling as I was typing, and I was very remiss in not mentioning you. I appreciate your contribution here very much....

Becca....you know me and you know that I give my relationship the 'credit' that it deserves. Again, this thread is not about me projecting any deep rooted fears or anything like that. It's *again* the repetitioning that has made me wonder....also this common misconception of 'it should be more than 90 days' (even said in this thread)...like WHY should it be more than 90? To get to know one another? Well guess what, they should already know each other if they're petitioning a visa for marriage.

Which illustrates my basic premise that some people aren't aware of what they're getting into. Whether it's by 'rose' glasses, or distance, or whatever.

Perhaps my error was expecting the 'rose colored glasses wearers to come in here to have a dialogue.

Yes, I know many LDRs work out, yes, I know many non-LDRs don't. But that doesn't change the fact that there's an IMBRA law for a reason. If the first marriage fails due to 'not really knowing each other', what steps are taken to ensure the same mistake isn't made again? Don't we as humans have a learning curve such as 'wow I burned my hand on that pot so maybe next time make sure before I grab it'

Edited November 5, 2006 by LisaD

[Identity 0]

During Wes' first visit, I took time from work. 3 weeks. And he took his time off with pay. We said we were going to file but still there must have been something in both of us wanting to 'make sure'.....

So he took 5 weeks without pay (ended up being 9) and came back over. This time we did the 'normal life' thing. I worked, etc. And like Larry's saying, yeah we had a disagreement or two. He openly told people this was a sort of 'test' to make see if he would be comfortable in America. He was adult enough to realize that 'coupleness' couldn't sustain us if he was going to be miserable here....

It DEFINITELY would be better to have more time than LDR's give us.

I can suss people out fairly well too

AND...

I am #######,

get ur mind out of the gutter you know what I mean.

You misunderstood my point. Can you really trust your own instincts? By being "#######", you could actually be resisting something that would otherwise be something incredibly beneficial in the long-term.

You are taking my post out of context there are 2 seperate trains of thought.

Me being "####### retentive" refers not to my selection process but to how we tackled his immigration and the practicalities of living in the USA.

I do trust my ability to suss people out-I do go with my gut; would I have agreed to marry Mark if I had not set eyes on him or only spent a couple of weeks together?-NO- FOR ME that just would not happen.

For the record: my bad.