Bribes to get documents done: How much is too much?

[Harsh_77 716]

Unfortunately in Indian system either you need to Pay bribe or use the connection which is as bad as the previous one.

The main problem is ppl local ppl do not want to change, legal system is messed up file a case and it goes on and on forever can you imagine sitting prime minister's murder case took 7 years to complete, when and where would ordinary citizen's case would be completed.

The corruption is in each and every department does not matter, even department who is supposed to record the public complaints, investigate and take action is corrupt.

Hope your complaint to ACB would do anything, but I don’t have my hopes high on that.

[rkk1 34]

@MrsNotBonJovi, Congrats on getting your work done without a bribe! I really hope you can get through the next steps without anyone giving you any difficulties. I admire you for doing what you are doing. And I do hope with your journalism background you can help bring more exposure to this pertinent issue.

@RnS, my husband and I are also R and S. Anyway, I did not mean to offend you with my last post. I realized that I was projecting feelings that I've had from other of my Indian friends here in this thread, which I shouldn't have done. I have been fortunate to have known amazing people from India who are doing wonderful social justice projects for creating good in the world... and I deeply admire them for that. However, one of the reasons I'm not more closer to these acquaintances, is because they often see themselves as being superior to others for not necessarily ascribing to the same cause that they follow. Despite their noble intentions to make the world a better place, they often end up pushing others away by their "us vs the world" mentality. Looking back at this thread, I can see that there was no overt self-righteousness anywhere, so it was my mistake. When you mentioned in your comment about being a 'true citizen', I can now see what you meant. But when I originally read that, I assumed you had a self-righteous attitude that you were a superior citizen to others.... which may or may not have been your intention. Possibly in some way you may be superior (I'm undecided on this), but I have compassion for those who are stuck in the system without any options (besides giving bribes).

You say that you were willing to do something that my husband and I didn't have the courage to do. When I was younger, I might have agreed with you, as I was more idealistic and thought that one should do the right thing no matter the consequences. At this point, I'm 30 years old now, and if my husband and I tried to do the 'right' thing by not paying a bribe to get our marriage certificate, then it's possible we might have had to wait years to be together (contacting our congress people for assistance, since his local city court was unwilling to give us the certificate otherwise without bribe). Let's say we filed a case against the marriage registrar's office and worked our way up through the state and national courts, and finally got the national court to demand my husband's court issue us the marriage certificate. I suppose you might say this was the right thing to do even if it took 10 years for us to be together, based on your response. At that point, we would no longer be able to have children together and would sacrifice our family and many happy years for this idealism. Could our relationship also survive all these years of being apart? There are so many speculations here with no answer, as none of us really knows how things would pan out. By not paying bribes, possibly we could have gotten our work done in a few months by talking to our national congresspeople to get our certificate... in that case, putting up some resistance to giving of bribes so easily would have been a great thing. Conversely we could have filed a case against the marriage registrar's office to get married which would have sat in a long que for 10-20 years without being addressed. Who knows. Is it better to be more dedicated to one's country (i.e. by standing up to corruption) at the expense of one's loyalty to one's spouse and children? I would have to take a long time to think over that question, as I cannot readily say that one is better than the other. The answer is not always so simple, though it makes for a good philosophical debate. On one hand, I admire your idealism and wish my husband was more like you in some ways... but on the other hand, I feel fortunate that he is a dedicated family man who decided to put loyalties to me and our family first (despite the fact that he is a very patriotic Indian who cares deeply about India's progress. He chose to pursue his LLB and LLM law degrees because he had a passionate interest in making society a better place).

I just had this talk with my husband today and he really admires what you all are doing as well. However, he did tell me that one of his uncles refused to pay a bribe recently, and got taken advantage of. (The uncle had his motorcycle stolen, and went to the local police to file a report. The police wanted a bribe, which my husband's uncle wouldn't give them as he thought it was unethical. So the police commissioner got angry and threw my husband's uncle out. His uncle then went to the insurance agency to get the cost of his bike reimbursed, but the insurance agency wouldn't file the claim without the police report. So feeling saddened and helpless, my husband's uncle went back to the police station to pay the bribe to get the police report, but by then the police chief has his ego bruised and would no longer write the report. So now my husband's uncle has lost his bike and can't get the cost of it re-imbursed, despite having insurance on the bike.) These kinds of stories just frustrate honest people, and make people get tired of fighting the system. That's just one example of why things get so frustrating that even otherwise honest people just give up and start paying bribes to get things done. There definitely needs to be more media attention to force pressure on people to change. Indian people care a lot for appearances and looking good in front of others, so I feel like putting unethical people on camera to expose them for asking for bribes might embarrass them enough to stop what they are doing.

Anyway, I really like the wonderful topic of this thread, and do not mean to steer the topic in any way. I am thrilled at what people here are doing, as corruption is a huge issue holding India back. If you are able to do something to help, then please do. Anyways, I don't have much more to write for now, but would be happier to be a spectator and learn from you all about what you think can be done. Carry on with this discussion.

Edited May 31, 2012 by rkk1

[MrsNotBonJovi 18]

lol sounds like you have a good bollywood masala movie story out of here Keep it up!

It would have been filmy if only it had not been initially so stressful Am glad that it is all finally getting over.

[MrsNotBonJovi 18]

Unfortunately in Indian system either you need to Pay bribe or use the connection which is as bad as the previous one.

The main problem is ppl local ppl do not want to change, legal system is messed up file a case and it goes on and on forever can you imagine sitting prime minister's murder case took 7 years to complete, when and where would ordinary citizen's case would be completed.

The corruption is in each and every department does not matter, even department who is supposed to record the public complaints, investigate and take action is corrupt.

Hope your complaint to ACB would do anything, but I don’t have my hopes high on that.

I agree that things are pretty screwed up, but that also does not excuse some people saying, "It is so, what can I do?" I found it particularly disturbing that I was asked to cough up more just because the municipal officer thought I was minting money in the US.I feel we in the US have as much responsibility as the folks back home and should not give in to pessimism and cynicism. Let's remember, most of this mess we ourselves helped create (or simply looked the other way when it was being created) while we were in India. I know my complaint to the Bureau may come to nothing, but I just had to do that, at the very least.

[MrsNotBonJovi 18]

@MrsNotBonJovi, Congrats on getting your work done without a bribe! I really hope you can get through the next steps without anyone giving you any difficulties. I admire you for doing what you are doing. And I do hope with your journalism background you can help bring more exposure to this pertinent issue.

@RnS, my husband and I are also R and S. Anyway, I did not mean to offend you with my last post. I realized that I was projecting feelings that I've had from other of my Indian friends here in this thread, which I shouldn't have done. I have been fortunate to have known amazing people from India who are doing wonderful social justice projects for creating good in the world... and I deeply admire them for that. However, one of the reasons I'm not more closer to these acquaintances, is because they often see themselves as being superior to others for not necessarily ascribing to the same cause that they follow. Despite their noble intentions to make the world a better place, they often end up pushing others away by their "us vs the world" mentality. Looking back at this thread, I can see that there was no overt self-righteousness anywhere, so it was my mistake. When you mentioned in your comment about being a 'true citizen', I can now see what you meant. But when I originally read that, I assumed you had a self-righteous attitude that you were a superior citizen to others.... which may or may not have been your intention. Possibly in some way you may be superior (I'm undecided on this), but I have compassion for those who are stuck in the system without any options (besides giving bribes).

You say that you were willing to do something that my husband and I didn't have the courage to do. When I was younger, I might have agreed with you, as I was more idealistic and thought that one should do the right thing no matter the consequences. At this point, I'm 30 years old now, and if my husband and I tried to do the 'right' thing by not paying a bribe to get our marriage certificate, then it's possible we might have had to wait years to be together (contacting our congress people for assistance, since his local city court was unwilling to give us the certificate otherwise without bribe). Let's say we filed a case against the marriage registrar's office and worked our way up through the state and national courts, and finally got the national court to demand my husband's court issue us the marriage certificate. I suppose you might say this was the right thing to do even if it took 10 years for us to be together, based on your response. At that point, we would no longer be able to have children together and would sacrifice our family and many happy years for this idealism. Could our relationship also survive all these years of being apart? There are so many speculations here with no answer, as none of us really knows how things would pan out. By not paying bribes, possibly we could have gotten our work done in a few months by talking to our national congresspeople to get our certificate... in that case, putting up some resistance to giving of bribes so easily would have been a great thing. Conversely we could have filed a case against the marriage registrar's office to get married which would have sat in a long que for 10-20 years without being addressed. Who knows. Is it better to be more dedicated to one's country (i.e. by standing up to corruption) at the expense of one's loyalty to one's spouse and children? I would have to take a long time to think over that question, as I cannot readily say that one is better than the other. The answer is not always so simple, though it makes for a good philosophical debate. On one hand, I admire your idealism and wish my husband was more like you in some ways... but on the other hand, I feel fortunate that he is a dedicated family man who decided to put loyalties to me and our family first (despite the fact that he is a very patriotic Indian who cares deeply about India's progress. He chose to pursue his LLB and LLM law degrees because he had a passionate interest in making society a better place).

I just had this talk with my husband today and he really admires what you all are doing as well. However, he did tell me that one of his uncles refused to pay a bribe recently, and got taken advantage of. (The uncle had his motorcycle stolen, and went to the local police to file a report. The police wanted a bribe, which my husband's uncle wouldn't give them as he thought it was unethical. So the police commissioner got angry and threw my husband's uncle out. His uncle then went to the insurance agency to get the cost of his bike reimbursed, but the insurance agency wouldn't file the claim without the police report. So feeling saddened and helpless, my husband's uncle went back to the police station to pay the bribe to get the police report, but by then the police chief has his ego bruised and would no longer write the report. So now my husband's uncle has lost his bike and can't get the cost of it re-imbursed, despite having insurance on the bike.) These kinds of stories just frustrate honest people, and make people get tired of fighting the system. That's just one example of why things get so frustrating that even otherwise honest people just give up and start paying bribes to get things done. There definitely needs to be more media attention to force pressure on people to change. Indian people care a lot for appearances and looking good in front of others, so I feel like putting unethical people on camera to expose them for asking for bribes might embarrass them enough to stop what they are doing.

Anyway, I really like the wonderful topic of this thread, and do not mean to steer the topic in any way. I am thrilled at what people here are doing, as corruption is a huge issue holding India back. If you are able to do something to help, then please do. Anyways, I don't have much more to write for now, but would be happier to be a spectator and learn from you all about what you think can be done. Carry on with this discussion.

I concur with most of what you said. The to-bribe-or-not decision is more of a personal strategic choice than an ideological one in most cases. Most of us (misbegottenly?) trap ourselves in this rhetoric and get tied up in knots. I can understand why you did what you did,and I respect the fact that you are deeply disturbed over what you had to do.

By the way, you write lavishly and rhetorically. Do you have any writing genes in you?

[Harsh_77 716]

I agree that things are pretty screwed up, but that also does not excuse some people saying, "It is so, what can I do?" I found it particularly disturbing that I was asked to cough up more just because the municipal officer thought I was minting money in the US.I feel we in the US have as much responsibility as the folks back home and should not give in to pessimism and cynicism. Let's remember, most of this mess we ourselves helped create (or simply looked the other way when it was being created) while we were in India. I know my complaint to the Bureau may come to nothing, but I just had to do that, at the very least.

I agree with you, but even in your case right you have to use ppl with connection ppl with power had to use your journalist friend to get work done.

Unfortunately in India if you need to get any work done either you have to use the power of connection or power of money.

I know most of the time most politicians and media say that we have to take responsibility on us and it has to start from us. I will give a very good example couple years back Mumbai Traffic Police started a initiative being on FB, asking ppl to post the pictures of traffic violation where number plate was also visible and they would take action against the offenders.

Immediately almost 10k ppl joined and started posting pictures and submitting their complaints, since it was new there was media hype and they responded to few complaints about illegal parking and initially posting which road had accidents etc.

In meanwhile ppl started posting pictures of police themselves violating the rules they are supposed to upheld and gradually Mumbai Police stopped responding or even logging onto the page for almost year there was no update from them, ppl continued to post.

Where I am going with this whole story, younger generation is ready and wants the change they are tired of corruption, they are doing what they can do but for change even the govt officials have to be on same page they should be ready for change, reduce corruption.

Like the saying for clapping your need two hands, cannot clap with one hand, ppl are ready and working same time Govt officials including politicians need to do for what they are appointed.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Harsh_77

[rkk1 34]

By the way, you write lavishly and rhetorically. Do you have any writing genes in you?

Haha... I write very similar to the way I speak. I am envious of all of you who can make a point concisely, but my train of thought just seems to trail on a bit more.

My poor husband, when we were earlier in our relationship, would say to me "Can you just tell me the short version of what you are trying to say?" But then I would get annoyed and there would be an awkward silence, so he learned not to say that as often. Now he just tries to listen to my talks and tangents, though I have no idea if he's following my discourse. I recently made a friend who also writes novel-sized responses as well, so I'm glad to not be the only one with this infliction. I am a med student, not a writer though, so I don't know if my long prose would ever be useful or not.

Edited June 6, 2012 by rkk1

[mysticlady 1]

UPDATE: Happy to report that I was able to get the NABC, without paying any bribe. It took several phone calls to journalist colleagues back in Chennai and some severe rapping-on-the-knuckles for the officer who had demanded the bribe. But the story doesn't here: am planning on going ahead with a complaint to the Directorate of Vigilance and Anti-Corruption, apart from seeking information under the RTI act as to exactly how many NABCs were issued in the last three years to applicants from the US and within how much time. I am sure the shorter the window, the greater must have been the probability of a bribe having been paid. Should result in some very interesting data. Will keep you guys posted.

Hi,

Glad to know that you got your certificate. Just wanted to let you know that another way to obtain it would have been to post it as a RTI. That's what my uncel did, and though it took about 45 days to get the reply by post, all it cost him was ten rupees and no tension in follow ups and other irritants . so if you have the time to spare, just file a RTI.

[rkk1 34]

Good info, Mystic Lady! Can you elaborate a bit more about this RTI? What is it?

[mysticlady 1]

Good info, Mystic Lady! Can you elaborate a bit more about this RTI? What is it?

Hey,

Well, it is a request for information petition. You can file it at many places including your local post office. Here is a link I found online in case you want to know more- http://trak.in/tags/business/2011/12/01/rti-how-to-file-where-how-who-why/.

My uncle wanted a 'no record of marriage' from the registrar's office. All he did was write the name of the bride and groom, date and place of marriage and asked if said marriage was registered. He made the request on plain white paper. Had to pay 10 rupees along with the application. He got a piece of paper from the registrar's office that said 'no record found of said marriage' in 45 days. He had to pay Rs 5 for the paper in which the information was printed.

[Mel and Rudy 2]

Bribing is bad bla bla file a complaint with the authorities bla bla.

This is India. If you want your work done, pay them. If you wanna risk your hair turning gray, do the bla bla.

I spent upwards of 15,000 INR for my PCC which I believe I have a fundamental right to get since I have no criminal record, current or past of any sort.

Yet I had to pay. I had to pay 'charges and fees' not bribes. Well, what the hell!

Then I remembered the story about the self-righteous man who lost his entire career in the US because he declined to bribe the officials at Bangalore University to get a duplicate of his degree certificate.

He never got the certificate. He took a different job and eventually returned to India. Good man.

But no, not me, I ain't pretending to be him who is going to set everything right. I got only so much fight and I don't wanna be crying at my own plight.

If you have read the book, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, you will need no introduction to the concept. The Earth is being destroyed for a hyperspace route by an alien race called the Vogons and when puny Earthlings feebly protest, they are told that the notice of demolition had been put up in the local affairs office at the Alpha Star System for 50 of Earth years and if they can not be bothered to check with local affairs, it's their lookout. The Vogon ends with "I don't know, apathetic bloody planet, I have no sympathy at all!"

That's how the Indian legal system works. Ask me.